[PVP] The real reason why Warriors and melee are at a disadvantage

[Slicc]

This is my personal opinion from playing Rift and comparing it to my experiences with other MMO's. This is not a cry for nerf other classes or buff my Warrior, it's specifically targeted at the DESIGN of the War Fronts.

I do believe some balancing needs to be done around healing and certain class burst damage. But I don't think that is the main issue nor am I here to discuss that.

The real reason is simple, all the WF are designed to be played in clusters. This is the biggest nightmare for a melee, anyone else of course too. If you get focus fired by 2-4 people you will die no matter your gear or the heals you are receiving. If the DPS knows how to dish it out you will die, no question ask. Let's take a look at the WF's.

The Black Garden - This WF is all about the Fang and people generally gather around it, not to mention it's a fairly small map.

The Codex - You would think this would make it easier on melee but not really. Especially the Codex capture point which puts melee at a huge disadvantage, and also being the main focus of this WF. The cliffs and narrow choke point where caster/range can nuke you down. On top you can be knocked off by Clerics and other classes. This being the main capture point for most Codex I have done makes it melee unfriendly.

White Fall Steps - Usually when I am PUGing people cluster up and end up meeting in the middle. Zerg vs Zerg, once again melee unfriendly.

Port Scion - I don't think I even need to discuss this one since it's the largest WF out of all. Compareable to AV in WoW, never was melee friendly either.


I have done a lot of thinking on why Rift PvP seems to lack so much compared to other MMOs. I believe this to be the main cause, until it's balanced more around smaller group fights melee will get pwned. I am not saying this is the only one and it would fix everything else. But it seems like people over look this and never talk about it.

Please feel free to share what thoughts you may have on this subject.

[Hokonoso]

at least you get 20m if you try one of the ranged specs, some consolation (until you get higher rank and can pwn as a champ/para/vk)

[Slicc]

at least you get 20m if you try one of the ranged specs, some consolation (until you get higher rank and can pwn as a champ/para/vk)

I have tried various RB specs that can DPS from complete range but it's not justifiable. I am a Warrior and see myself as a melee class, this is also why I play one. If I wanted range I'd been any of the other three options.

I don't think my gear is horrible, I am currently R3 rest with T2 gear and a Suncrusher. I can't speak for this since I am not R6 but I don't see how another 15% damage reduction would change much of what I pointed out in my OP. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

[Magnos]

I feel like I'm at a disadvantage mainly due to spacebar.

[Hokonoso]

I have tried various RB specs that can DPS from complete range but it's not justifiable. I am a Warrior and see myself as a melee class, this is also why I play one. If I wanted range I'd been any of the other three options.

I don't think my gear is horrible, I am currently R3 rest with T2 gear and a Suncrusher. I can't speak for this since I am not R6 but I don't see how another 15% damage reduction would change much of what I pointed out in my OP. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

R6/T3 gear allows you to kill ppl in 1.5-3 seconds. that is the difference, not the valor. however, R6 valor + bloodthirsty allows you to solo queue without a dedicated healer while killing ppl in 1.5-3 seconds. the difference is night and day.

[Revial]

I dunno. I'd like to think I, and just about any 2-h Champ/Para/VK would disagree with you that we're at any real disadvantage over ranged.

It's a team sport, and frankly, I'm of the opinion that nothing gets as much return for incoming heals as a *****in' 2-h Champ/Para/VK.

For all your talk about "if the dps focus fires"...trust me, the opposing team works under the same constraints, and 10 pact 2-h Champ/Para/VK is nothing to ignore.

But, maybe that's just me.

If you're a solo player, then obviously, for instance, in the Codex, you probably don't want to be going to the Codex as melee dps when your pug team has no heals or only one healer. But, it's an MMO, and while I know the market has widened drastically by allowing solo play, it's ultimately still a genre that was designed around playing with others. Solo players just provide these businesses with a ton of capitol so that the social players have a game they can enjoy.

Just saying.

[Slicc]

R6/T3 gear allows you to kill ppl in 1.5-3 seconds. that is the difference, not the valor. however, R6 valor + bloodthirsty allows you to solo queue without a dedicated healer while killing ppl in 1.5-3 seconds. the difference is night and day.

My question would be to you then aren't the other callings able to do the same in that case? It seems like you are talking about out gearing everyone is the way to counter this. I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is a solution. And doesn't address the issue that I pointed out originally.

[Slicc]

I dunno. I'd like to think I, and just about any 2-h Champ/Para/VK would disagree with you that we're at any real disadvantage over ranged.

It's a team sport, and frankly, I'm of the opinion that nothing gets as much return for incoming heals as a *****in' 2-h Champ/Para/VK.

For all your talk about "if the dps focus fires"...trust me, the opposing team works under the same constraints, and 10 pact 2-h Champ/Para/VK is nothing to ignore.

But, maybe that's just me.

If you're a solo player, then obviously, for instance, in the Codex, you probably don't want to be going to the Codex as melee dps when your pug team has no heals or only one healer. But, it's an MMO, and while I know the market has widened drastically by allowing solo play, it's ultimately still a genre that was designed around playing with others. Solo players just provide these businesses with a ton of capitol so that the social players have a game they can enjoy.

Just saying.

I don't think you understood my point. In cluster fights MELEE is at a disadvantage, I am not necessarily talking about any given spec or calling. I am talking about the way WF's are designed to favor range more than melee.

[Magnos]

Yeah coming from just recently completing my R6 set, its strange but he's right. Those last few pieces, for whatever reason, make all the difference. it doesn't seem like much, but I guess those last few points of crit/dr/ap/endurance really matter when the other 5 guys your charging into don't have them.

I suffered through solo queues getting face ***** by ranged classes, excessive warden heals and Rb/Paladins all the way through rank 6, until I hit that just undeer 30% DR mark then suddenly I was melting face again. Now it feels mostly like how champ felt before the titan strike nerf when we were all in greens and blues.

I'm still screwed when I don't have heals and I'm fighting team vs team, or I come up against a geared stunlock rogue or marksman and my bull rush is down, but warriors arent meant to survive every situation on their own, the only class that is supposed to be able to claim that is the rogue, they at least have an out if they need one.

The point is once you get your gear, you will fine that your strangely ok with charging into bad situations again, and that most other callings can't beat you in a fair fight (meaning you both saw eachother at the same time)

[Hokonoso]

My question would be to you then aren't the other callings able to do the same in that case? It seems like you are talking about out gearing everyone is the way to counter this. I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is a solution. And doesn't address the issue that I pointed out originally.

no, on my rogue there is nothing i can do to raise my dmg. im capped out on dmg... i still cant kill anyone in 1.5-3 seconds. even if i got full R6 gear ill still not survive as long as a warrior with 2k more hp and armor against other physical players (which in warfronts is everyone but mages). the difference of course being as a rogue i get to play ranged/defensive and have more team/group skills which ultimately win the battle.

basically, warriors have the highest dps in the game, the champ/para/vk does comparable dps to the bm but the dmg is frontloaded and not over time via dots which i find to be hilarious, the caveat being you cannot do it in pve due to the taunting nature of vk. clerics will never be able to do this, sure they can become unkillable and that in and of itself is amazing and VERY useful in warfronts, especially in a team situation, but they will never be killing multiple ppl in 1.5-3 seconds, sure with their 1.5m cooldown they will get to kill ppl that fast for 7 seconds, but after that they will have a huge lag period of no fast kills where the warrior is unchanging.

mages kill fast and consistently, can even 1 shot ppl, but they cant do it over and over and over again to the next target due to their cooldowns/charge usage. only warriors seem to be able to kill ppl over and over and over again without ever stopping to wait for a cooldown. that is the true power of an R6 warrior. give him a healbot? and you just won every warfront you entered that day.

[Hokonoso]

I don't think you understood my point. In cluster fights MELEE is at a disadvantage, I am not necessarily talking about any given spec or calling. I am talking about the way WF's are designed to favor range more than melee.

this statement i agree with 100%

just the R6 warrior and a few cleric specs are an exception to this rule :P

[Slicc]

Thanks for the input to those guys that are R6. Could you post your specs?

[NatashaK]

The most melee friendly setup I ever played was Aion. The setup was a maze of tightly turning caverns to the engagement range was just out of melee range. You really couldn't kite without LoSing.

[Sawdomite]

Because CC is complete garbage, AP scales like garbage, and casting takes zero skill. There isn't even LoS checks on the end of any spells.

People really need to read over some older patch notes and just think about stuff for a bit. It's pretty obvious there's a clear bias for casters built right into the game. Armor, dodge, parry, block and misses vs. resists. Swing timer vs. no LoS check. 3m vs. 30m. AP scaling half of SP scaling. Etc.

I mean, how would you not stomp melee as a caster?

As a warrior, you just need to out-gear your opponent or have more support than they do. That's not balanced. I should not need to hit R6 and get pocket heals on my warrior to be competitive when my mage in R1 gear and quest blues is able to burst anybody right off the bat.

[Danktankz]

honestly melee are not at a disadvantage....i run around with 0 valor rating with a healer friend of mine that i've playyed multiple mmo's with and him and i on average can take on groups of between 5-10.

If fraps wouldnt lag the **** out of my 11 year old rig i would show footage of how rediculous Champ/Vk/Vindi can really be. I'm only rank 4 and only go up to the heroic leap ability for gap closers. The dmg is ******ed. (I am using Sylvan Greatblade though), but again i have 0 valor and i rarely ever die and my healer usually just sits there while people flee.