Dex>Str Proof? - For the benefit of peace & quiet on our guild forum.

[Hokonoso]

Rogues can't use plate. I wish Warriors couldn't use leather. Would make it so much easier. That is really my biggest beef with the debate - that Warriors have a much larger selection, and when they want to take from the limited (in comparison) selection for Rogues, it can be frustrating (I was a Feral Druid, and now play a Rogue).

The real problem is, as others have pointed out, is the stat balancing. Trion needs to make STR more appealing than DEX to Warriors, so that this discussion is moot. And I'm sure they will at some point, and as someone pointed out, at that point, those Warriors wearing leather are gonna be at a disadvantage.

we are currently in vanilla wow days. back then hunters warriors rogues and paladins all wore dps leather as it had agility and crit and plate had neither and mail had int.

now hunters and rogues use agi only and warriors paladins and dks use str to the point of agi does nothing for them. basically they need to make AP scale with every single attack for both rogues and warriors, this will fix the whole leather/plate issue. yes this would make both warriors and rogues do 2500 dps... imo this is fine, they should buff up clerics and mages and leave AP scaling in, or nerf some abilities to put them back in line, either way AP needs to scale.

the reason SP is so amazing for mages is because they have no auto-atks, thus 100% of their attacks scale with SP, vs the very small % of abilities that scale with AP for rogues and warriors (and even clerics).

[vBean]

we are currently in vanilla wow days. back then hunters warriors rogues and paladins all wore dps leather as it had agility and crit and plate had neither and mail had int.

There were issues with Warriors taking leather all the way through WotLK. I stopped playing shortly after Coliseum, so before Cata.

[Kristoph]

STR = 0.75 AP, 0.25 Crit
DEX = 0.25 AP, 0.75 Crit

Or

STR = 1 AP, 0.25 Crit
DEX = 0.25 AP, 1 Crit


Or whatever else. In beta, STR wasn't garbage. I don't know why they bothered changing it.

[Marrocco]

I don't get it:

How is Strength and Dex better than raw Crit or AP?

You get less than 1 AP per point of strength and less than 1 crit per point of Dex.

Raw stat differences between items at the same tiers of gear are so minute that you are looking at the wrong thing if you pick a piece of gear with 20 more dex on it but 10 less crit or 20 more strength on it but 20 less ap.

It's not hard to understand. Unless you are talking about somebody with Ravenous Strength specced. Then it could be worth more.

Of course, there's still no build that takes Ravenous Strength and does more damage than a build with Garfield...............at which point, gear however you want, you aren't optimized, and if you don't care, neither do we.

[Kristoph]

and less than 1 crit per point of Dex.

Raw stat differences between items at the same tiers of gear are so minute that you are looking at the wrong thing if you pick a piece of gear with 20 more dex on it but 10 less crit or 20 more strength on it but 20 less ap.

???


1 dex = 1 crit
20 dex > 10 crit

[Marrocco]

???


1 dex = 1 crit
20 dex > 10 crit

My mistake.

Dex > Crit > AP > Strength imo.

[Zuignap]

use teh BiS list

str > dex BUT crit > AP. however, some plate sux and have crappy str/crit ratios making the leather equivalent better. the BiS list (somewhere on forums) will show which pieces are better and why. and it's a mix of plate and leather in case you are wondering.

You say str>dex but crit>ap? That's rather weird since:

Lets review either 4 str or 4 dex.
4 Str = 3 ap
4 dex = 1 ap + 3 p.crit

if you check the differences it's 3 p.crit vs 2 AP, since crit > ap, why say str>dex?

(yes strike to maim gives a damage bonus to str, but other buffs give damage bonusses to crit)

[Lansolyn]

Rogues can't use plate. I wish Warriors couldn't use leather. Would make it so much easier. That is really my biggest beef with the debate - that Warriors have a much larger selection, and when they want to take from the limited (in comparison) selection for Rogues, it can be frustrating (I was a Feral Druid, and now play a Rogue).

The real problem is, as others have pointed out, is the stat balancing. Trion needs to make STR more appealing than DEX to Warriors, so that this discussion is moot. And I'm sure they will at some point, and as someone pointed out, at that point, those Warriors wearing leather are gonna be at a disadvantage.

^ This is my argument about why Warriors should be second in line to Rogues when it comes to leather. Warriors have many more options than Rogues for gear. Rogues don't have the same options. If warriors are allowed to roll/bid on leather then leather, effectively, becomes a rare resource and Rogues take a longer time to gear up than warriors. With DKP this becomes even more of an issue because it bumps up the demand for leather and (therefore) the cost of a bid will increase. Rogues will have to pay more DKP for their upgrades than Warriors. Warriors have to pay more for upgrades than rogues for leather gear, but, don't forget that they still have a viable (if not optimal) option in plate that they could utilize to save DKP and still upgrade.

For example: Two pieces of armor drop in a raid. You get a plate chest and a leather chest (for the sake of argument we can assume that any chain or cloth is being safely ignored). A warrior can choose to bid on the leather (or roll on the leather) and if he doesn't get the leather he can still try for an upgrade in the plate. The rogue, on the other hand, can only try on the leather chest piece and if he fails to get it then he doesn't upgrade. Indeed, if the warrior wins the leather armor then the plate can still be rolled on by the other warriors. In effect, warriors will be gearing up faster than rogues. This does NOT benefit the raid because, while Dex is optimal for warriors, it is MORE optimal for rogues.

Besides, rogues need all the help that they can get maintaining DPS.

Lans

[Marrocco]

^ This is my argument about why Warriors should be second in line to Rogues when it comes to leather. Warriors have many more options than Rogues for gear. Rogues don't have the same options. If warriors are allowed to roll/bid on leather then leather, effectively, becomes a rare resource and Rogues take a longer time to gear up than warriors. With DKP this becomes even more of an issue because it bumps up the demand for leather and (therefore) the cost of a bid will increase. Rogues will have to pay more DKP for their upgrades than Warriors. Warriors have to pay more for upgrades than rogues for leather gear, but, don't forget that they still have a viable (if not optimal) option in plate that they could utilize to save DKP and still upgrade.

For example: Two pieces of armor drop in a raid. You get a plate chest and a leather chest (for the sake of argument we can assume that any chain or cloth is being safely ignored). A warrior can choose to bid on the leather (or roll on the leather) and if he doesn't get the leather he can still try for an upgrade in the plate. The rogue, on the other hand, can only try on the leather chest piece and if he fails to get it then he doesn't upgrade. Indeed, if the warrior wins the leather armor then the plate can still be rolled on by the other warriors. In effect, warriors will be gearing up faster than rogues. This does NOT benefit the raid because, while Dex is optimal for warriors, it is MORE optimal for rogues.

Besides, rogues need all the help that they can get maintaining DPS.

Lans

The counter argument is that it will drop again. And Dexterity is far and away better for warriors than the strength their gear oozes in.

[Deadwhisper]

i hope these informations help people see a clearer picture.
1 str = 0.75AP rating
1 dex = 0.25AP rating and 1crit rating
for every 100AP, war dps increase by 10. no you didn't misread it, attack power scaling is horrible.

let compare str VS dex
for every 133 str, you get about 100AP which increase your dps about 10.
for every 133 dex, you get about 33 AP and 133 crit rating which increase your dps about 3 and about 5% crit.

let talk about souls, para/cham/rift
para
- everytime you crit, the crit on your next ability increase by 6%?
- everytime you crit, you activate a next attack which is hit alot harder than normal attack and only
cost half the power. this attack has 6s gcd.

rift
- everytime you crit, you leave a dot that will tic for 4s.
- everytime you crit, the power cost of your next ability will reduce by 50%.

cham
- everytime you crit, you gain attack power, 10AP per crit for 5 or 6s?-
- slayer bearing increase your crit dmg by 25%.
- the stone from weaponsmith increase your crit dmg by 15%.

so base on this information, i would said dex>>str, crit>>AP. i don't laugh at the war who's using leather because leather provides high dex/crit than plate.

[naturegoulet]

With the way souls are set up, crit would seem to always yield more damage then strength. You have slayers bearing in champ, the follow up crit buff in paragon, and weapon stones. While most specs dont have the paragon buff, the majority of dps specs have slayers bearing and use 2hs for the weapon stone. It's hard to touch that crit bonus damage if you go for strength (in terms of the damage being high enough to make up for your decreased crit).

[Ignored]

I get single target 650 DPS out of my reaver / riftblade spec in tank gear. I feel I could easily get 1k with t2 dps gear on, I don't see how that's fail, especially because it can be maintained fairly well at a range and doesn't require a pet.

In the end youre only lying to yourself, as you can barely squeek out 1k single target DPS in T3 gear (as DW anything)

Seriously, replace the bads in raids and you'll probably get alot closer to getting everything on farm status.

[vBean]

The counter argument is that it will drop again. And Dexterity is far and away better for warriors than the strength their gear oozes in.

How is this a viable counter argument? If coming from the Warrior's point of view, I (the Rogue) would say, "And we'll still have the issue of you taking from my more limited pool of gear, since I don't have access to your pool of gear."

And I could use that from my point of view as well, "It will drop again, and you can have it after all Rogue's have had their chance at it. You can take your viable (if not optimal) gear from your pool of gear that is exclusive to you (from my point of view), instead of taking the only gear we have to choose from".

And as another poster pointed out earlier, because you are taking upgrades from the Rogues, when the Warriors can still get upgrades from plate, if not the best upgrades, you are effectively slowing down the progression of your guild.

Here's a scenario:

You are a raid leader, you have 1 Rogue, 1 Warrior.

In order to down the boss that you are trying to progress on, you need 15 more dps than what you have.

You down a boss you have on clear, and it drops a piece of Leather (gloves lets say) that will increase your Rogues DPS by 10. It will also increase your Warriors DPS by 10. This same boss drops a piece of Plate (gloves again) that will increase your Warriors DPS by 5. The Warrior wants the Leather gloves, because they are better for his dps than the plate ones. But you know (hypothetically) that letting him get them will mean that you will not have enough dps to down the next boss. So you will have to wait until next week to see if more upgrades will drop that will enable you to down the progression boss. Instead, you can give the Leather to the Rogue, and the Plate to the Warrior, and expedite your progression.

This is a gimmicky scenario that simplifies the argument here, but I feel it can help illustrate the point that the previous poster was trying to make about slowing your guilds overall progress by giving Leather to Warriors over Rogues.

[Hokonoso]

How is this a viable counter argument? If coming from the Warrior's point of view, I (the Rogue) would say, "And we'll still have the issue of you taking from my more limited pool of gear, since I don't have access to your pool of gear."

And I could use that from my point of view as well, "It will drop again, and you can have it after all Rogue's have had their chance at it. You can take your viable (if not optimal) gear from your pool of gear that is exclusive to you (from my point of view), instead of taking the only gear we have to choose from".

And as another poster pointed out earlier, because you are taking upgrades from the Rogues, when the Warriors can still get upgrades from plate, if not the best upgrades, you are effectively slowing down the progression of your guild.

Here's a scenario:

You are a raid leader, you have 1 Rogue, 1 Warrior.

In order to down the boss that you are trying to progress on, you need 15 more dps than what you have.

You down a boss you have on clear, and it drops a piece of Leather (gloves lets say) that will increase your Rogues DPS by 10. It will also increase your Warriors DPS by 10. This same boss drops a piece of Plate (gloves again) that will increase your Warriors DPS by 5. The Warrior wants the Leather gloves, because they are better for his dps than the plate ones. But you know (hypothetically) that letting him get them will mean that you will not have enough dps to down the next boss. So you will have to wait until next week to see if more upgrades will drop that will enable you to down the progression boss. Instead, you can give the Leather to the Rogue, and the Plate to the Warrior, and expedite your progression.

This is a gimmicky scenario that simplifies the argument here, but I feel it can help illustrate the point that the previous poster was trying to make about slowing your guilds overall progress by giving Leather to Warriors over Rogues.

i find this statement funny. in our guild if a necklace or ring has dex/crit the warriors get dibs and if it is str/ap the rogues get dibs cause ap is useless to warriors. ideally dex/ap is best for rogues but in the case of rings which are all unique one is forced to get a str/ap ring if stacking ap. but of course this excludes armor, just talking jewelry here.

[vBean]

i find this statement funny. in our guild if a necklace or ring has dex/crit the warriors get dibs and if it is str/ap the rogues get dibs cause ap is useless to warriors. ideally dex/ap is best for rogues but in the case of rings which are all unique one is forced to get a str/ap ring if stacking ap. but of course this excludes armor, just talking jewelry here.

Accessories don't have the "limited pool" problem that I'm referring to, so they don't apply. DPS Accessories are be used both Rogues and Warriors, so they should both be given equal opportunity to roll/bid on them.