Ranger Buff - Feral Instincts vs. Predatory Instincts

[Fudily]

It's been discussed several times in the thread following his guide on which is now better to use, I really do not understand the animosity here, guides are neat, useful, but holding hands only goes soo far. I know he had some issues with being able to update it, but anybody with the ability to read can easily find the same data veterans already know.

A good player will stay up to date with the data, and test things out, knowing when to modify how they play. Bad ones take the first thing they found on bing (good people use google right?) cut paste and call it playing.

While doing quick Math deduced for myself that Feral was better, and then forum searching to make sure I was right yielded lots of results of people giving straight answers that Feral is better - I couldn't actually find any formula or hard numbers to back it up. Which is essentially what I needed here to prove my side since apparently my argument for it wasn't good enough.

Also, there isn't any animosity. I think you've taken me too seriously.

I think this will suffice.

[Nnnxia]

I assume that the 26 is the pre-softcap crit rate conversion (26 rating->1% crit). I don't know why he's multiplying it by six instead of three, though. Maybe he's doubling it because of the pet, even though he shouldn't be?

Anyways, it should really be calculated with post-softcap crit, since most rogues will be crit capped in HK gear (or ID gear when using crit-heavy resist cores).

APtoCritRatio for pet is actually greater than 26 since pet scaling is actually more difficult, since pets get half our strength and 60% of our dex. So a flat 3% boost is pretty huge for the pet, would probably be worth around 40 per crit instead of 26.

Why calculate with post-softcap crit? 26x5=130? It can more or less be treated as 2:1 ratio since it is just a flat buff without diminishing returns.

Pets contribute roughly 27-30% of a rogues dps, 3% crit ensures a higher probability the pet stays in the upper range of contribution. Though you do get + ~19% crit raid buffed, pet crit is still low from 30 => 50ish%. Couple in Ferral aggression, pet crit can be roughly estimated to be 62.5% crit ((100*15 + 50*45) /6000) and that is why no wastage of Feral Aggression is pretty important =p

Predatory is roughly a 2.3% or less increase in AP for ID relic'd AP rogues. (46/2000AP MM buff not taking into account raid)
While Feral is a 4.4% increase in crit for Ranger 3/69 = 4.3%
and 4.8% increase in crit for pet 3/62.5 = 4.8%
for a total of roughly 9% increase in crit vs 2-2.3% increase in AP.

So 2-2.3 : 9
=> 1 : 3.91 above 1 : 2
Thus Feral is better.

[Gery]

APtoCritRatio for pet is actually greater than 26 since pet scaling is actually more difficult, since pets get half our strength and 60% of our dex. So a flat 3% boost is pretty huge for the pet, would probably be worth around 40 per crit instead of 26.

Why calculate with post-softcap crit? 26x5=130? It can more or less be treated as 2:1 ratio since it is just a flat buff without diminishing returns.

Pets contribute roughly 27-30% of a rogues dps, 3% crit ensures a higher probability the pet stays in the upper range of contribution. Though you do get + ~19% crit raid buffed, pet crit is still low from 30 => 50ish%. Couple in Ferral aggression, pet crit can be roughly estimated to be 62.5% crit ((100*15 + 50*45) /6000) and that is why no wastage of Feral Aggression is pretty important =p

Predatory is roughly a 2.3% or less increase in AP for ID relic'd AP rogues. (46/2000AP MM buff not taking into account raid)
While Feral is a 4.4% increase in crit for Ranger 3/69 = 4.3%
and 4.8% increase in crit for pet 3/62.5 = 4.8%
for a total of roughly 9% increase in crit vs 2-2.3% increase in AP.

So 2-2.3 : 9
=> 1 : 3.91 above 1 : 2
Thus Feral is better.

Feral is better but this math is just full of errors.

[Primalthirst]

People are just massively over-complicating this with bad math.
Feral is better than Predatory.

'Nuff said.

[Caelan]

tl:dr: Feral is better.

As to why (simple version): This is a flat 3% crit boost to both yourself and your pet. I won't get into pet scaling, since I haven't researched it all that well, but it's comparatively bigger for the pet than yourself as the pet has a lower crit percentage. The 3% crit boost is unaffected by the softcap, being a buff, which means it's equal to pre-cap scaling, making it even stronger.

why (complex): I won't get into this. I don't care enough to show exact numbers. Parse it yourself several times if you want to see the difference

[Elric-merren]

Always thought it was eally strange that one of our instinct effects affected ony the player, while another affected both the player an the pet, as i would think most of all in a specc that kinda is about working with a pet to fight they would affect both (pet and player). Though i wish we had a deep ranger root/talent that made our instinct buffs affect the party as well might be nice in the expansion. Yet yeah to till soft-capped on crit going with the crit instinct is better (atleast to me), then the ap instinct pulls away.

[Mandarb]

Always thought it was eally strange that one of our instinct effects affected ony the player, while another affected both the player an the pet, as i would think most of all in a specc that kinda is about working with a pet to fight they would affect both (pet and player). Though i wish we had a deep ranger root/talent that made our instinct buffs affect the party as well might be nice in the expansion. Yet yeah to till soft-capped on crit going with the crit instinct is better (atleast to me), then the ap instinct pulls away.

It does make sense, actually: feral is much higher in the ranger tree, 32 SP I believe. The higher you go into ranger the more important your pet becomes for your overall damage, thus making the buff better.

I'm not sure if your last sentence actually means what you wanted to say, but as it stands it's devoid of logic, as the buff becomes better when you're over the soft cap: it's not affected by the cap.

[Elric-merren]

It does make sense, actually: feral is much higher in the ranger tree, 32 SP I believe. The higher you go into ranger the more important your pet becomes for your overall damage, thus making the buff better.

I'm not sure if your last sentence actually means what you wanted to say, but as it stands it's devoid of logic, as the buff becomes better when you're over the soft cap: it's not affected by the cap.

Not completely as a whole the soul is about working with the pet, as such having one effect that affects both of you, while the other only affecting yourself is abit weird from the fact of what the ranger soul implies as it being you an the pet working in concert together, where as right now the ap buff is more your pet focusing your own predatory insticts without working with you much at all. I guess it is better to say that as a whole the predatory instinct buff discription kind of seem counter to what (atleast ito me.) ranger is about by the discription of the soul, if both effected your pet as well as you t would fall in line with the rest off the aspects of the soul, though the power of the instinct would need to be looked at to keep it from outweighing the benefit of the feral instinct higher up in the tiers.

For myself atleast stacking crit till the soft cap, than crossing over to stacking ap effects netted slightly better results then continueing to stack more crit unless the crit severly outweighted the ap effect.

[TheGrinnz]

Does it increase crit rating by 3%, or crit *chance* by 3%? The latter would not be affected by any cap as far as I know. You can find out by mousing over your character sheet, an increase in crit chance would show up as (x + 3%) or something

[Muspel]

Crit chance.

[Elric-merren]

Does it increase crit rating by 3%, or crit *chance* by 3%? The latter would not be affected by any cap as far as I know. You can find out by mousing over your character sheet, an increase in crit chance would show up as (x + 3%) or something

Chance to crit, yet how much of a benefit is 3% crit after your at the soft-cap. It is ike kinda asking at 57% crit chance would you rather have 3% more crit or more ap to increase how much your attacks deal more damage an such when they crit. 3% more crit never seemed that big unless the bonus from more ap was too minor to notice.

[Muspel]

Chance to crit, yet how much of a benefit is 3% crit after your at the soft-cap. It is ike kinda asking at 57% crit chance would you rather have 3% more crit or more ap to increase how much your attacks deal more damage an such when they crit. 3% more crit never seemed that big unless the bonus from more ap was too minor to notice.

Each % of crit offers the same DPS increase as the one before it.

Crit RATING is devalued after the soft cap, but that's because there's a soft cap that reduces its effect. Flat % crit buffs are unaffected and continue to be equally valuable.

[TheGrinnz]

Chance to crit, yet how much of a benefit is 3% crit after your at the soft-cap. It is ike kinda asking at 57% crit chance would you rather have 3% more crit or more ap to increase how much your attacks deal more damage an such when they crit. 3% more crit never seemed that big unless the bonus from more ap was too minor to notice.

As Muspel said... 3% more crit chance at 57% is 60%, caps are irrelevant.

Crit is more valuable the higher your AP is, AP is more valuable the higher your crit is, so the question is only, which bonus gets you more overall.

[Bloodbourne]

Each % of crit offers the same DPS increase as the one before it.

Crit RATING is devalued after the soft cap, but that's because there's a soft cap that reduces its effect. Flat % crit buffs are unaffected and continue to be equally valuable.

Not really true... going from 0-3% crit is a 1.5% increase in dmg done

going from 50-53% crit is a 1.2% increase in dmg done

However...

going from 0-3% crit is a 3% gain in crit chance.

going from 50-53% crit is a 6% gain in crit chance.

In otherwords, you crit 6% more often

Fun with numbers...

[Muspel]

Not really true... going from 0-3% crit is a 1.5% increase in dmg done

going from 50-53% crit is a 1.2% increase in dmg done

However...

going from 0-3% crit is a 3% gain in crit chance.

going from 50-53% crit is a 6% gain in crit chance.

In otherwords, you crit 6% more often

Fun with numbers...

That's the relative increase. The actual numerical DPS increase remains the same.

Quick example: if you have 5% crit and do 100 DPS, then you actually deal 105 DPS (aside from the effects of various procs, but I'm keeping it simple here). 3% crit will increase that to 108 DPS.

If you have 50% crit, then that's 150 DPS, and a 3% increase will boost it to 153 DPS. In both cases, you gain 3 DPS, it's just that 3 DPS is a larger percentage of 105 than it is of 150.