Saboteur changes for 1.8

[Mayi]

Parse people with raid buffs!

This is the one I'm interested in, magical damage generally scales better in raids, so despite me thinking sab's great now and will be almost as much aoe dps as the best mage aoe builds... it might not scale as well.

However so far, my feedback is sab's now good, stronger then it ever was (but not as strong as sabdancer).

It will still suck for soloing, but it always has. I should start a campaign to remove the cooldown from adhesive bomb and extend the duration on concussive charge (or whatever it's called). Turn sab into a kiting class... which is currently is not, and also does not have survivability to solo. Kiting 10 mobs over adhesive bombs while throwing bombs and charges at mobs, that could be fun as hell... without being OP in pvp since everyone and their brother has a port now.

[Zyzyx]

The only legitimate cause for self-healing in Sab, in my opinion, is the fact that Sab does not synergize well with poisons or (anymore) Rift Scavenger. So the self-healing options elsewhere in the calling are largely unavailable.

How about the fact that sab is the ONLY soul in the entire game that doesn't work with its calling's self healing mechanics. (Which you admit and name.)

How about the fact that when you look at the other 3 callings, they have functionally the same heal mechanic (heal as a % of damage) which has and will continue to out scale rogue heals. It only makes sense from a balance perspective to give rogues access to the same healing mechanic everyone else has access to. Especially if it will help solve the problem with sab being the only soul in the game to lack self healing capabilities.

[Undrsiege]

How about the fact that sab is the ONLY soul in the entire game that doesn't work with its calling's self healing mechanics. (Which you admit and name.)

How about the fact that when you look at the other 3 callings, they have functionally the same heal mechanic (heal as a % of damage) which has and will continue to out scale rogue heals. It only makes sense from a balance perspective to give rogues access to the same healing mechanic everyone else has access to. Especially if it will help solve the problem with sab being the only soul in the game to lack self healing capabilities.

You really have no reason to complain in 1.8 when some things do not get adjusted because you pushed for something already stated wasn't happening...

[DTM300]

You really have no reason to complain in 1.8 when some things do not get adjusted because you pushed for something already stated wasn't happening...

The only thing healing would be used for is PvE soloing/grinding. It's a minor issue really, but it is an issue.

The larger issue is that both weapon enchantments and munitions do not apply to the Sab, therefore killing off literally a major component to the rogue souls. If that were to be fixed, it would allow for a sub soul to be picked to synergize with it in some way. Munitions for damage, poisons for... Damage. If you go 51 Sab, 16 point enchantments won't be possible - aka leeching and fell blades. If you don't go 51, it's not maximum AE dps, so at least allow for utility then.

Only thing that is good under 16 points is EM at 14 points. Since it would (or should) only apply on the target with the charges or the % of it applying already goes down with multiple targets, it should not be that big of an issue to implement. Would barely change AE damage, would increase ST.

Win/win?

[Mirimon]

lets work on healing in sab with 1.9, prolly wont see wep enhancements/poisons prc on sab/bard abilities till way later either . Current stats for pts:

51sab/15nb/0mm full pa attunement, top issued gear from vendor, ap stacked, sab crystal, NO BUFFS (not fervor/notconsumables, nothing)

all numbers are rough averages rounded on SINGLE target

caltrop avg dmg: 2.8k initial and per tic
spike avg: 2.7k initial and per tic
detonate: 2.4k

sharp: is not effective at all any more
blast charge: same as shrap, atm its not good for rotation at all..

debuff charges: neat.. but not the best out there, so unless stealthed and stacking before pull just to give the raid some slightly higher initial numbers dont bother with them.

as for aoe.. i would like more than 3 sometimes 4 targets to test on in town.. also.. still wondering about detonate not effecting charges stacked on mobs that are not the current target. Used to be able to det all, now only working on current target.

this spec benefits the nb skills for +dmg to cp abilities and +dmg to finisher as bombs enact a "finisher" type effect, take note also that sab dmg is no longer mostly physical, But weapon +health or Weapon+earth, they carefully, and purposefully removed all wording that said physical dmg on pts.. imo, that is why a heavy physical dmg soul as support, such as mm/sin/rs will not and as I have seen on pts right now, does not work well on sab 1.8. using mm as no point 3rd allows auto ranged attacks to proc several nb effects that are up nearly constantly, and if in need of kiting swift shot is still there to ramp up some speed while dropping sticky goo....

[Enaki]

still wondering about detonate not effecting charges stacked on mobs that are not the current target. Used to be able to det all, now only working on current target.

I'm fairly sure now that Shrapnel has been added it's intentional that Fragmentation bomb no longer detonates charges on all mobs it hits. As for Detonate, I'm fairly sure it' never done that.

this spec benefits the nb skills for +dmg to cp abilities and +dmg to finisher as bombs enact a "finisher" type effect, take note also that sab dmg is no longer mostly physical, But weapon +health or Weapon+earth, they carefully, and purposefully removed all wording that said physical dmg on pts.. imo, that is why a heavy physical dmg soul as support, such as mm/sin/rs will not and as I have seen on pts right now, does not work well on sab 1.8. using mm as no point 3rd allows auto ranged attacks to proc several nb effects that are up nearly constantly, and if in need of kiting swift shot is still there to ramp up some speed while dropping sticky goo....

Unless a damage type is specified for Rogue/Warriors it's assumed Physical. ACT was bearing this out as well. I think they just removed the word Physical for "clarification". That or they have partially implemented changes that we don't know about, but I seriously doubt they are doing away with "Physical" or making all Sab non-physical (but who knows, I guess it could happen, just not yet).

and meh! first night I can actually sit down and test in a while and now the patcher update to load the PTS patcher won't work, but won't let me continue....

[Iliveunderabridge]

Cmon guys we need sab self heals just to let me farm talos landing farm spot better.

./signed zyzyx

[Mirimon]

nope, act still says physical and will until IT gets updated

tried and tested, not one soul increases current pts sab as much as nightblade, the damages from sab ARE NOT phsyical on pts. Pls get on it and test, by all means prove me wrong (i hope you do). If an ability is at all containing any physical component it states it clearly on the tooltip, and more clearly in the coding. sab coding has changed, all parses out right now stilll read old sab data as wep+earth or wep+phys, it is in fact now only wep+earth or wep+x amount of health

[Enaki]

nope, act still says physical and will until IT gets updated

tried and tested, not one soul increases current pts sab as much as nightblade, the damages from sab ARE NOT phsyical on pts. Pls get on it and test, by all means prove me wrong (i hope you do). If an ability is at all containing any physical component it states it clearly on the tooltip, and more clearly in the coding. sab coding has changed, all parses out right now stilll read old sab data as wep+earth or wep+phys, it is in fact now only wep+earth or wep+x amount of health

Unfortunately I can't get on to PTS at the moment (the patcher is failing to patch the patcher thus blocking me) but when I looked the other night none of Sab's abilities said physical in the tooltip but the combat logs from the same night all had Physical listed next to them.

Like it was said before that could just be a partially implemented change, but I have a feeling it was just a tooltip change. That's not to say that NB isn't the best sub build, there's parsing that has to be done to prove that, but I'm not convinced that you're theory as to what's going on is correct.

[Mirimon]

hm.. i am hearing alot of people having issues getting on pts.. it's too bad, because I would love people to get in there and prove me wrong, as far as being listed in act. again, thats because act is still under the impression its parsing 1.7 live sab...

[Vyxagallanxchi]

I'll try and test the charges to see if they're physical or not. God knows I need SOMETHING to do tonight lol.

[Beckmann]

51sab/15nb/0mm full pa attunement, top issued gear from vendor, ap stacked, sab crystal, NO BUFFS (not fervor/notconsumables, nothing)

all numbers are rough averages rounded on SINGLE target

caltrop avg dmg: 2.8k initial and per tic
spike avg: 2.7k initial and per tic
detonate: 2.4k

sharp: is not effective at all any more
blast charge: same as shrap, atm its not good for rotation at all..

I'm really confused about how you are getting these numbers. I am parsing in relic gear bag without whetstones (waiting on PTS xfers to open again), but I'm no where close to the numbers you are seeing.

51 sab / 15 nb / 0 mm

Caltrop - ~7.4k for full duration - ~1.2k per tick
Spike - ~7.4k for full duration - ~1.2k per tick

51 sab / 10 mm / 5 rs

Caltrop - ~7.5k full duration - ~1.3 per tick
Spike - ~9.1k full duration - ~1.5 per tick

And this isn't even with the mm buff the whole time.

Can you elaborate on the gear, PA, buffs you are parsing with? I can't fathom how this would be so far off.

It does seem like something strange is happening with Caltrop and Spike in NB though. That should be looked into.

[Vyxagallanxchi]

Alright, here's the results of my testing elemental vs physical.

51 Sab was used for all of my tests, MM was kept at 0 points. With 0 points in NB the charge crit damage (I used crits since they never vary) is
Blast : 789 with residual shrapnel ticks of 804
Spike : 1189 per tick
Caltrop : 1129 per tick
Shrap : 652 with residual shrapnel ticks of 758.

With 5 points in NB for the 15% damage to CP generating abilities:
Blast : 884 with residual shrapnel ticks of 901
Spike : 1303 per tick
Caltrop : 1239 per tick
Shrap : 729 with residual shrapnel ticks of 848

With 3 points into Unstable state (+9% to non-physical damage):
Blast : 884 with residual shrapnel ticks of 901
Spike : 1303 per tick
Caltrop : 1239 per tick
Shrap : 729 with residual shrapnel ticks of 848


Based on this, I would conclude that none of the above listed charges are elemental damage. They all appear to be physical to me. I don't think my gear matters for this kind of test, but if it does, Rank 8 armor with HK relic weapons. And seeing as how I can't minimize the game without it freezing up, I'd have to log in again to check my PAs but they aren't very high I can tell ya that lol.

[Mirimon]

i say again, do not use unstable state, it is, for w/e reason, not effecting sab abilities, idk why.. wording wise it should, being rational, go to the left side as I said originally:

5 in blazing fury
5 in coup de grace
3 in fire/death attunement
2 in molten skin

0 point mm put up hellfire blades buff. now test with that.. oh, and why bother with shrap/blast anymore?

[Vyxagallanxchi]

i say again, do not use unstable state, it is, for w/e reason, not effecting sab abilities, idk why.. wording wise it should, being rational, go to the left side as I said originally:

5 in blazing fury
5 in coup de grace
3 in fire/death attunement
2 in molten skin

0 point mm put up hellfire blades buff. now test with that.. oh, and why bother with shrap/blast anymore?

The point was to test if the charges were elemental. The ability that would be affected by that IS unstable state. It doesn't affect sab charges BECAUSE they are physical.