Saboteur changes for 1.8

[Beckmann]

Sab theorycrafting

Went ahead and made a spreadsheet (well, Mathematica notebook) to try out a few different situations. These calculations attempt to be 100% accurate, accounting for all bleed clipping, etc. Here's a summary of some results:

Glossary

Ca>D: Fully load caltrop and Detonate.
Sh>D: Fully load shrapnel and Detonate.
Sp>AB: Fully load spike and use Annihilation Bomb.
TB>FB: Time bomb / frag bomb cast.

Fast Charge Loading

With charges loading in 3 gcds (ie, 2 per GCD) and loading up to X charges we get the following dmg / gcd on 3 targets...

X=6

Sp>AB: 9.33k
Ca>D: 6.94k
Sh>D: 5.27k
TB>FB (unclipped): 6.20k
TB>FB (clipped in 10-sec rotation): 5.55k
CB: 5.10k
FB spam: 4.16k

Rotations and DPS on three targets:

Ca>D>Sh>D>Sp>AB ("carpet bombing rotation") = 7.18k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sh>D ("A") = 5.99k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sp>AB ("B") = 7.60k DPS

A > A > B = 6.53k DPS

If Carpet Bombing is used on CD then this gives sustained DPS of...

sustained = 6.79k DPS

And on 2 targets the sustained DPS would be... (eg, RK/Prince or Aky/Jornaru)

sustained (2 targets) = 4.61k DPS

Pros: Good DPS. Tight rotations that fit well with 10-second bleeds.
Cons: Maybe DPS is too much. Chemical Bomb is useless.

X=5

Sp>AB: 7.94k
Ca>D: 5.85k
Sh>D: 4.46k
CB: 5.10k (now a DPS gain)

Ca>D>Sh>D>Sp>AB ("carpet bombing rotation") = 6.08k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sh>D ("A") = 5.24k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sp>AB ("B") = 6.61k DPS

A > A > B = 5.69k DPS

sustained = 5.85k DPS

sustained (2 targets) = 3.99k DPS

Pros: DPS is getting close to Stormcaller.
Cons: We aren't using Chemical Bomb.

Chemical Bomb

TB>FB>CB>Ca>D>Shx2>D ("A") = 5.30k DPS

"B" rotation does not change because we want full Spike charge.

A > A > B = 5.73k DPS

sustained = 5.87k DPS

sustained (2 targets) = 4.01k DPS

It's a 20-30 DPS increase. Not worth it. Chemical Bomb needs a DPS increase still. If it's DPS is increased three-fold then we get... (on three targets)

CB: 15k (by far the highest DPGCD skill Sab's have, but only usable once every 10 seconds for a DoT that ticks for 500)

sustained = 6.01k DPS

sustained (2 targets) = 4.15k DPS

Which I think makes it worth it but not necessary.

Pros: Sab DPS is very close to Stormcaller. Chemical is worth using.
Cons:

Cooldowns

If frag has no cooldown (as it should), then the difference between TB and FB is nearly non-existent, and TB could be dropped in favor of FB. (FB > Ca > D > FB > Sh > D, for example.) This front-loads the damage more and lessens the chance the mob dies before Time Bomb goes off. However, doing this means you have to use FB in the middle of loading charges, which might justify sticking with Time Bomb for some people. Time Bomb is also still good for timing damage on people in PvP, so maybe it doesn't need to change. My testing with significant DPS boosts to TB (30%) only netted a 50 DPS increase on 3 targets, so the amount of buff needed to differentiate is probably not worth it given that a huge buff would create problems for PvP (unlike Chemical Bomb).

Suggested Changes

So based on these ideas if we want to go the fast-charge-loading route...

• Have some way to load two charges at once (still only up to a maximum of 5).
• Remove the cooldown from Fragmentation Bomb.
• Massively buff Chemical Bomb (e.g., +200%).

I think I'm done with this for a while now.

[Nnnxia]

Bless you david beckam bless you.

[Enaki]

It's nice to see numerical "evidence" (I say it that way because lord only knows how the dev's will view it) that double charges are in fact beneficial without being overpowering (provided there has not been a MASSIVE buff in the build that has not made it PTS yet). But then I've been advocating that change for a while now so I'm going to be a bit biased.

As for Chemical Bomb, I think this goes back to an idea you mentioned a long time ago. They could easily leave it as a lower damage if any mob that walked through it received an debuff that lasts for X seconds that increases charge damage for x seconds. Or if you wanted to give the Soul a bit more of a "Support" leaning have it apply a damage bonus for physical damage for all players or some form of debuff.

More work than just upping the damage (which if that's the only thing we have time for at this point so be it), but it gives more flavor to the Soul.

[Mayi]

Did some initial testing on Sab, here's my conclusion.

For the best Sab melee builds you have the choice of two different ones:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...sRRGdz.0VMc.-0
or
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...Rss.0VMcx0b.-0

For the best Sab ranged build:
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...dAudR.VMcou.-0


I mean seriously, I'm shocked it actually managed to get worse then on live now. Unless I'm doing something drastically wrong, Sab is terrible.

[DTM300]

Everything you say is true, but bombs currently feel like the least broken part of Sab to me if Frag's CD is removed. Your suggestion would relegate them to finishing off mobs instead of being part of the main rotation -- I don't see why this is a good thing.

I'd rather focus on fixing charges so they hold their own. Bombs are pulling their weight, its the charges (and traps) that are dragging Sab down. (Note that Bombs already give 100% HE uptime, so moving it to charges only helps by removing bombs from the rotation and giving 2 more GCDs for charges. While this is a buff, it's not the direction I'd like to see the playstyle go.)

I understand your point too. My suggestions were only to allow a simple, yet semi-effective way to AE... While still allowing for a more complicated rotation to maximize the damage.

Basically similar to other callings. While I don't think it will be simpler than warrior or cleric AE, I think it would be similar to SC AE. Traps being the debuffer vs. stacks of electrocute and whatever else in SC. Hypotherm?

My concern would be how tight the Sab rotation would have to be for competitive dps, vs. easymode spams from other callings. So I believe Sab should have an easymode spam AE that does "decent" AE. I believe it is essential for the soul to be viable.

[Beckmann]

Did some initial testing on Sab, here's my conclusion.

For the best Sab melee builds you have the choice of two different ones:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...sRRGdz.0VMc.-0
or
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...Rss.0VMcx0b.-0

For the best Sab ranged build:
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...dAudR.VMcou.-0


I mean seriously, I'm shocked it actually managed to get worse then on live now. Unless I'm doing something drastically wrong, Sab is terrible.

Ha, good job.

In my testing so far Sab is definitely worse than live in ST but slightly better in AE. It's definitely not in a good spot yet, though.

[Petgroup]

Did some initial testing on Sab, here's my conclusion.

For the best Sab melee builds you have the choice of two different ones:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...sRRGdz.0VMc.-0
or
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...Rss.0VMcx0b.-0

For the best Sab ranged build:
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...dAudR.VMcou.-0


I mean seriously, I'm shocked it actually managed to get worse then on live now. Unless I'm doing something drastically wrong, Sab is terrible.

OMFG I am on the floor. This is the greatest thing to have ever come outta these forums since anyone of my 500+ sarcastic posts.

I wish I could filmed a Youtube video of me clicking those links. Funny part is, you are beyond correct.

BRAVO

Edit: I cannot control myself as I am laughing like a little girl still. You made my freakin week lol.

[DTM300]

Zero point Sab is the only solid Sab build at the moment. I agree.

What I do find funny is how difficult and how much time they're taking to even attempt to fix Sab, vs. the time that would have been spent on an overhaul allowing for synergy in the process.

So broken of a soul, so much to fix.

Double fan out damage and call it a day.

[Beckmann]

Ran numbers for a few different ST rotations.

Note: This does NOT include Serrated Blades. I can't parse the effect of Serrated Blades well without fervor.

With max charges of 5:

Adapted AE rotation TB > FB > Sp x3 > D > Bl x3 > D: 2.23k DPS

Only Charges Sp x3 > D > Bl x3 > D > Bl x3 > D: 2.19k DPS

That rotation does not use Combined Arms, assuming it is replaced by a talent that eliminates the CD on FB. If not then....

Combined Arms Sp x3 > D > Bl x3 > FB > Bl x3 > FB: 2.22k DPS

We can shorten these rotations and see a DPS increase...

Shortened Sp x3 > D > Bl x3 > FB > Bl x2 > FB: 2.31k DPS

If Chemical Bomb is buffed +200% then this rotation wins:

Chemical Bomb Sp x3 > D > Bl x3 > FB > CB > D: 2.58k DPS

And TB > FB > CB > Sp x3 > D > Bl x3 parses almost identically. This rotation is better because it leaves a free finisher that can be replaced with Annihilate, Head Shot, etc. as needed to self-buff.

Reducing the CB buff to +100% puts the DPS at 2.40k. With no buff to CB at all, it parses identically to the "Adapted AE Rotation".

In the process of looking at the CB damage, I realized that I had made a mistake in the AE numbers with Chemical Bomb (I was only counting the damage from chemical to a single target, not all targets).

AE corrections with CB 5 max charges, 3 targets

Without chemical bomb: 5.85k sustained
With unbuffed CB: 6.01k sustained
With +100% CB: 6.21k sustained
With +200% CB: 6.42k sustained

It looks like +100% CB gives a appreciable but not game-breaking AE buff. It also puts the damage of Sab in line with Stormcaller in both AE and ST. However, not including Serrated Blades in the ST numbers is a BIG difference.

Conclusions and Suggested Changes

• The ST DPS is not extremely overpowered with fast charge loading. There might need to be some modifications after accounting for Serrated Blades.
• Chemical should get +100% buff, not +200%. With no buff at all CB is not a DPS gain in ST and not very significant in AE (especially considering the chance that mobs move out of the GTAE). +100% makes the ST and AE numbers line up with SC/pyro.

[Beckmann]

I can't parse the effect of Serrated Blades well without fervor.

I'm going to pretend I never said this. (Charges aren't melee attacks so Serrated Blades is just proccing off auto-attacks, correct?)

It looks like from some very simple testing that Serrated Blades / Auto Attacks are a ~200 DPS gain on a single target in relic gear bag.

So that would put melee Sab around 2.6k DPS with fast-loading charges and +100% CB. Maybe TRION doesn't want Sab to be that good in ST, but that's still not competitive so I don't personally see a problem with it.

[Ailion]

Sab theorycrafting

Went ahead and made a spreadsheet (well, Mathematica notebook) to try out a few different situations. These calculations attempt to be 100% accurate, accounting for all bleed clipping, etc. Here's a summary of some results:

Glossary

Ca>D: Fully load caltrop and Detonate.
Sh>D: Fully load shrapnel and Detonate.
Sp>AB: Fully load spike and use Annihilation Bomb.
TB>FB: Time bomb / frag bomb cast.

Fast Charge Loading

With charges loading in 3 gcds (ie, 2 per GCD) and loading up to X charges we get the following dmg / gcd on 3 targets...

X=6

Sp>AB: 9.33k
Ca>D: 6.94k
Sh>D: 5.27k
TB>FB (unclipped): 6.20k
TB>FB (clipped in 10-sec rotation): 5.55k
CB: 5.10k
FB spam: 4.16k

Rotations and DPS on three targets:

Ca>D>Sh>D>Sp>AB ("carpet bombing rotation") = 7.18k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sh>D ("A") = 5.99k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sp>AB ("B") = 7.60k DPS

A > A > B = 6.53k DPS

If Carpet Bombing is used on CD then this gives sustained DPS of...

sustained = 6.79k DPS

And on 2 targets the sustained DPS would be... (eg, RK/Prince or Aky/Jornaru)

sustained (2 targets) = 4.61k DPS

Pros: Good DPS. Tight rotations that fit well with 10-second bleeds.
Cons: Maybe DPS is too much. Chemical Bomb is useless.

X=5

Sp>AB: 7.94k
Ca>D: 5.85k
Sh>D: 4.46k
CB: 5.10k (now a DPS gain)

Ca>D>Sh>D>Sp>AB ("carpet bombing rotation") = 6.08k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sh>D ("A") = 5.24k DPS
TB>FB>Ca>D>Sp>AB ("B") = 6.61k DPS

A > A > B = 5.69k DPS

sustained = 5.85k DPS

sustained (2 targets) = 3.99k DPS

Pros: DPS is getting close to Stormcaller.
Cons: We aren't using Chemical Bomb.

Chemical Bomb

TB>FB>CB>Ca>D>Shx2>D ("A") = 5.30k DPS

"B" rotation does not change because we want full Spike charge.

A > A > B = 5.73k DPS

sustained = 5.87k DPS

sustained (2 targets) = 4.01k DPS

It's a 20-30 DPS increase. Not worth it. Chemical Bomb needs a DPS increase still. If it's DPS is increased three-fold then we get... (on three targets)

CB: 15k (by far the highest DPGCD skill Sab's have, but only usable once every 10 seconds for a DoT that ticks for 500)

sustained = 6.01k DPS

sustained (2 targets) = 4.15k DPS

Which I think makes it worth it but not necessary.

Pros: Sab DPS is very close to Stormcaller. Chemical is worth using.
Cons:

Cooldowns

If frag has no cooldown (as it should), then the difference between TB and FB is nearly non-existent, and TB could be dropped in favor of FB. (FB > Ca > D > FB > Sh > D, for example.) This front-loads the damage more and lessens the chance the mob dies before Time Bomb goes off. However, doing this means you have to use FB in the middle of loading charges, which might justify sticking with Time Bomb for some people. Time Bomb is also still good for timing damage on people in PvP, so maybe it doesn't need to change. My testing with significant DPS boosts to TB (30%) only netted a 50 DPS increase on 3 targets, so the amount of buff needed to differentiate is probably not worth it given that a huge buff would create problems for PvP (unlike Chemical Bomb).

Suggested Changes

So based on these ideas if we want to go the fast-charge-loading route...

• Have some way to load two charges at once (still only up to a maximum of 5).
• Remove the cooldown from Fragmentation Bomb.
• Massively buff Chemical Bomb (e.g., +200%).

I think I'm done with this for a while now.

Thank you Beckmann. Really appreciate this. How long are you running the tests and what are the numbers for the stormcaller? I'm also assuming you are comparing them without PA and with 4 piece HK crystal.

[Zyzyx]

Thank you Beckmann. Really appreciate this. How long are you running the tests and what are the numbers for the stormcaller? I'm also assuming you are comparing them without PA and with 4 piece HK crystal.

Do you want comparisons in pvp or pve situations?

He is basically saying what I've been saying all along. We need the old charge booster back. The saboteur soul was designed around this mechanic.

EDIT: Ailion why is the saboteur soul the only soul in the game that cannot spec for reliable self healing?

[Enaki]

So should we be theory crafting, and more importantly testing with Splinter/Embers? Or at the very least Splinter? That's going to lower the numbers, but since Splinter is the best AoE Debuff at the moment and the vast majority of Sab's damage is Physical I think we might be better of including it in the numbers to make sure that they are high enough with those charges included instead of being balanced around a rotation that does not include them.

[DTM300]

Thank you Beckmann. Really appreciate this. How long are you running the tests and what are the numbers for the stormcaller? I'm also assuming you are comparing them without PA and with 4 piece HK crystal.

I'm going to ask a silly but important question here:

While I understand comparing numbers from the same person, couldn't you ask the Mage dev for his data on a SC 3 target dps for ranges on diff. specs with no PA and 4p HK crystal?

Do you guys talk? Surely the Mage dev would have some numbers and data for SC AE.

[Zyzyx]

I'm going to ask a silly but important question here:

While I understand comparing numbers from the same person, couldn't you ask the Mage dev for his data on a SC 3 target dps for ranges on diff. specs with no PA and 4p HK crystal?

Do you guys talk? Surely the Mage dev would have some numbers and data for SC AE.

I don't think 3 target dps is something we should be focused on with an aoe soul.