Saboteur changes for 1.8

[bitnine]

Traps should be a ground targeted AoE that doesn't go off if there are no valid targets in the area. If they are changed to require a target you should change the name too, unless the target has to take some kind of action to set them off.

I'd just as soon see traps be a debuff placed on an enemy that takes effect when/if they die. Trapped mob drops, each nearby enemy gets a couple of charges added to it. I'd be able to use it at range, and it would give more a reason for combined arms to exist.

[Enaki]

I'm beginning to wonder what's going on with our next round of changes. Does the lack of changes constitute the normal cycle time for it to move through internal testing and we just got an earlier notification than normal? Or did something shake out that they are having to cycle back through again? I'm guessing it's the former, but who knows.

Either way, at this point we can theory craft all we want but there are still too many unknowns. My initial guess though is that unless all of our charges saw a large base damage increase, or an even larger AP modifier that shortening the bleeds duration is not going to be enough to get us there yet.

I still think we're going to have to get some form or charge load cycle time increase to close the gap (though that will require them to dial other changes back a bit), but we'll just have to see how the numbers shake out once the changes finally hit PTS.

[Petgroup]

Un-nerf IQS and 50% munitions.

/thread

[DTM300]

One playstyle issue with removing the CD on Frag Bomb ... Time Bomb becomes pointless. This is easy to fix by making Time Bomb hit a lot harder than Frag Bomb, but it's worth mentioning. It would have to be enough of a buff that HE damage didn't normalize it to the point of not mattering.

I covered this in my earlier post. Time bomb AE, and then you have chemical, time bomb, and frag spam for the general Sab AE.

I'll let you read it since I said take off HE and put it back on det.

Only way traps are going to be useful is if they increase dps somehow. A good way to do this is to have them buff charge damage. So for trash you can use the general AE spam and it should be ok (with proposed changes), and sustained AE would be charges, traps, and bombs or just charges/traps, bombs when low health.

[Enaki]

Honestly at this point I think you could just delete the damage and debuff traps and I seriously doubt anyone would care. Then replace them with blast enhancements, or buffs, or new bomb types for debuffing and/or spamming. Then replace Land Mines with a new AoE finisher which would be much more in line with the newly stated Sab role of AoE damage.

I don't normally advocate taking away abilities (it's usually better to find a way to make them useful) but Traps always seem to get the short end of the stick and don't mesh well with the rest of the Sab's abilities. I think scrapping/replacing them instead of trying to shoehorn them in would be the better long term solution.

[DTM300]

Honestly at this point I think you could just delete the damage and debuff traps and I seriously doubt anyone would care. Then replace them with blast enhancements, or buffs, or new bomb types for debuffing and/or spamming. Then replace Land Mines with a new AoE finisher which would be much more in line with the newly stated Sab role of AoE damage.

I don't normally advocate taking away abilities (it's usually better to find a way to make them useful) but Traps always seem to get the short end of the stick and don't mesh well with the rest of the Sab's abilities. I think scrapping/replacing them instead of trying to shoehorn them in would be the better long term solution.

Traps are currently just "the odd man out" in the soul right now. Whatever is done to them, bombs and changes will always be "the dps", so if traps are to stay, they have to support "the dps" by increasing it somehow. They're melee traps and that just doesnt work with Sab right now. They have a lot of leeway to play with traps to help the Sabs dps out, as well as allowing for synergy with other souls if there is a general spam AE (frag bomb). If you have that, then you can add synergy talents in the low tiers, and have the higher tier ones improve the effectiveness of traps (with my proposal would buff charge damage or sustained AE), while still having the general spam AE available at the lower level of Sab.

Obviously keeping the AP scaling for Sab bombs or abilities as you go higher in the Sab tree.

[grummy]

I like what I'm seeing however, the bombs or the AOE traps/shrapnel charge need to add combo points much like the finishers do in the marksman tree.

the slow from caltrop charges need to be AOE, dunno how many times i've been overwhelmed in an earth Rift because only a single mob was slowed and the rest just come prancing over and own me.

Fragment bomb needs to never miss, especially at lower levels where gear doesn't have a hit rating. Regular mobs shouldn't be able to dodge this over and over again 90% of the time.

Chemical bomb and barbed trap need a huge increase in dps to be useful to make these things on par with the mm ability to spam AOE shots all the time.

I'd love to see a talent choice in the soul tree to make the Chemical bomb act like the adhesive bomb at the same time so one doesn't have to spend all day trying to aim both and send charges out before a mob reaches you.

If you aren't going to make the fragmented bomb actually hit more often, at the very least remove the cooldown so you can try again immediately if it misses.

[Gynxz]

I'm beginning to wonder what's going on with our next round of changes..

Next Wave Of Sabo Changes:

"This space is available for rent"

[Beckmann]

Bombs should be the instant AE. Traps should be what is used in conjunction with charges for the sustained/heavy AE.

I'm on the bombs = the new fan out spam. Make chemical similar to frag and no cd and those combined should beat out fanout. Make time bomb AE as well. Put HE back on det and you're almost home.

Well, TB is already AE so unless I'm misunderstanding you this doesn't change much.

I disagree about putting HE back on Det. I think the current design of HE with bombs makes a lot of sense, especially if the cooldown on Frag is removed so it becomes spammable. Then HE encourages you NOT to spam it, but its still an option if you need to. If HE was back on charges then charges would get a big DPS boost, yes, but it would also make bombs obsolete again unless they were given a 100% buff (literally).

As things currently stand, Chemical is a DPS gain and stacks with everything else, so I don't see the need to change it personally. Removing the CD on Frag accomplishes the same thing (giving a spammable bomb) without homogenizing all the bombs.

As merely personal preference, I'd rather not have the AE DPS rely on using traps (unless they become ranged) because everything else in the soul is ranged.

[Beckmann]

Also, I'm still in favor of my suggestion from a long time ago of giving Chemical a secondary effect that increases the Sab's damage. Examples: buffs damage by 30%, makes charges load twice as fast, increases damage of Sab's bleeds by 50%, etc..

I also don't see why Chemical Bomb should have a cooldown. The only bomb that should have a cooldown at this point is Annihilation Bomb, and only because of Demolition Specialist. The design of the soul makes spamming bombs a DPS loss already, and we need something spammable. Maybe Time Bomb keeps its cooldown so you don't tab-target people, I guess.

Remove the cooldown on Frag and Chemical Bomb!

[DTM300]

Well, TB is already AE so unless I'm misunderstanding you this doesn't change much.

I disagree about putting HE back on Det. I think the current design of HE with bombs makes a lot of sense, especially if the cooldown on Frag is removed so it becomes spammable. Then HE encourages you NOT to spam it, but its still an option if you need to. If HE was back on charges then charges would get a big DPS boost, yes, but it would also make bombs obsolete again unless they were given a 100% buff (literally).

As things currently stand, Chemical is a DPS gain and stacks with everything else, so I don't see the need to change it personally. Removing the CD on Frag accomplishes the same thing (giving a spammable bomb) without homogenizing all the bombs.

As merely personal preference, I'd rather not have the AE DPS rely on using traps (unless they become ranged) because everything else in the soul is ranged.

Traps would have to be either ground target or target based an armed after a short delay. Target would carry debuff "aura" if it moves or you can make it a "trapped area". Both can work. Ground target better for specific setup, aura on target is better for moving targets.

Bombs will never be useless even if spammable. Quick trash pulls would allow for a 5 charge det then bomb spam then if needed carpet bomb 3x chemical. That would be decent quick AE damage.

Since I see no dead man's trigger, bombs would be effective in every situation where the mob will die in less than 15 seconds. 5 charge setup time, det or bomb cd, and bleed damage full ticks Vs. bomb spam per GCD.

Bomb damage needs to be around 2/3 of the damage of charges, pre-trapped charge dets.

Ideally trapped 5 charge dets would be the highest dps, with bomb spam being above fan out spam, but below SC and Cab AE. It would provide the option to spam AE like ALL other callings AE specialists have, provide decent AE doing so, while also allowing for top AE dps to have to include charges, traps and detonate.

[DTM300]

Also, if frag bomb added a cp you could det after 5 for HE too. Spammable AE wouldn't be as horrible then.

Also, I haven't played Sab in a while, but doesnt chemical bomb stack? No cd would have like 6-7 stacks of damage ticking, right?

[Beckmann]

Also, I haven't played Sab in a while, but doesnt chemical bomb stack? No cd would have like 6-7 stacks of damage ticking, right?

Well it's cooldown is 10 seconds and it lasts 8 seconds so there's no way to tell. If it had no cooldown, then no you shouldn't be able to get stacks of Chemical Bomb. It's not the biggest deal, I just don't see why it should have had a CD to begin with.

If the fact that it's ground targetted makes this hard to do, then whatever. Frag is the one that matters.

[Beckmann]

Bombs will never be useless even if spammable. Quick trash pulls would allow for a 5 charge det then bomb spam then if needed carpet bomb 3x chemical. That would be decent quick AE damage.

Since I see no dead man's trigger, bombs would be effective in every situation where the mob will die in less than 15 seconds. 5 charge setup time, det or bomb cd, and bleed damage full ticks Vs. bomb spam per GCD.

Bomb damage needs to be around 2/3 of the damage of charges, pre-trapped charge dets.

Ideally trapped 5 charge dets would be the highest dps, with bomb spam being above fan out spam, but below SC and Cab AE. It would provide the option to spam AE like ALL other callings AE specialists have, provide decent AE doing so, while also allowing for top AE dps to have to include charges, traps and detonate.

Also, if frag bomb added a cp you could det after 5 for HE too. Spammable AE wouldn't be as horrible then.

Everything you say is true, but bombs currently feel like the least broken part of Sab to me if Frag's CD is removed. Your suggestion would relegate them to finishing off mobs instead of being part of the main rotation -- I don't see why this is a good thing.

I'd rather focus on fixing charges so they hold their own. Bombs are pulling their weight, its the charges (and traps) that are dragging Sab down. (Note that Bombs already give 100% HE uptime, so moving it to charges only helps by removing bombs from the rotation and giving 2 more GCDs for charges. While this is a buff, it's not the direction I'd like to see the playstyle go.)

[DTM300]

Well it's cooldown is 10 seconds and it lasts 8 seconds so there's no way to tell. If it had no cooldown, then no you shouldn't be able to get stacks of Chemical Bomb. It's not the biggest deal, I just don't see why it should have had a CD to begin with.

If the fact that it's ground targetted makes this hard to do, then whatever. Frag is the one that matters.

Yea, I'd prefer it to be a targeted bomb like frag. I asked way earlier for a quality of life change for Sabs there if it's to be used normally in rotations. Again, either an aura around the target the can move with it, or a ground effect around the target hit.

Whatever way traps would go, should mimic the chemical bomb. Only difference would be chemical bomb would be a target bomb like frag, annihilation, and time bomb.