Saboteur changes for 1.8

[Enaki]

not that much of a dps gain since for some reason they made sab damage all dots. providing faster rotations just means dot clipping. why they keep putting things as dots seems strange. i dont know that most of the explosions i see do little upfront damage, then continually do damage overtime. until theyre willing to move sab damage to more upfront instant damage rather than dots, faster rotations are not going to do much.

True, I kinda wish they would move AoE to more burst and less DoTs. Single Target being lots of DoTs is fine, not ideal but not what we're supposed to be playing the Soul for.

[Antigonos]

still dont get it...

For ME a saboteur is a class, that can time its attacks in a manner it influences the battefield, aka it FINISHES PEOPLE OFF.

Right now and with the changes, saboteur is a mindles aoe spamming idiocy class, which is a shame to be honest ...

[Gunzip]

not that much of a dps gain since for some reason they made sab damage all dots. providing faster rotations just means dot clipping. why they keep putting things as dots seems strange. i dont know that most of the explosions i see do little upfront damage, then continually do damage overtime. until theyre willing to move sab damage to more upfront instant damage rather than dots, faster rotations are not going to do much.

This would be an accurate conclusion on the changes and the poor implementations being added by the rogue developer. I would suggest he spend his time working on tool tip updates and leave Sab as it is, no one uses it and we have enough AoE/ST options in pve anyway that works.

[Enaki]

This would be an accurate conclusion on the changes and the poor implementations being added by the rogue developer. I would suggest he spend his time working on tool tip updates and leave Sab as it is, no one uses it and we have enough AoE/ST options in pve anyway that works.

Just out of curiosity, where did the bad Sab touch you that you did not like? You seem to be on a "just forget them and move on" crusade that reads more like extreme dislike than trying to be practical.

Wait, you're not trying to get Adnoz to notice you and ask you out are you?

[Beckmann]

I assume powerstones + vial, but low PA right?

Something like 105 PA levels, but half of that is in earth End. (I should probably reset at some point.)

I think the best way is to put a passive up in the root at 30+ that is activated when charges are exploded. 20% per charge exploded to Increases charges planted by 1, 20% per charge exploded to increased maximum charges by 1. Duration 1s per charge exploded.

This shortens the rotation once you have it going, but doesn't help get bleeds going initially which I think is the main concern. Like all the other rotation-shortening suggestions it would also require changing the bleed timers ... not that that's impossible to do, just another thing that has to change for it to work.

Could this be solved with Stances?

• Stance: Mass Destruction:
• Stance: Focused Burn

This is a sexy idea as a way to buff the overall damage. Basic rotation would be something like:

TB > FB > CB > Shrap x3 > Det > Cal x3 > Det > Shrap x3 > Det

which is basically just adding in another set of Shrap...I wonder if bombs would even be a DPS gain at that point, particularly with Ricochet. That would be a big concern of mine.

But it's a big mechanic change that doesn't address the main mechanic problem -- ramp-up time.

I like. Especially for PvP. I do have one question though. How would spike and blast charges detonated by Annihilation bomb work?

AB could be a bomb you use to spread your last set of charges to AE before switching stances, perhaps? Or the rotation could involve stance dancing, IDK.

not that much of a dps gain since for some reason they made sab damage all dots. providing faster rotations just means dot clipping. why they keep putting things as dots seems strange. i dont know that most of the explosions i see do little upfront damage, then continually do damage overtime. until theyre willing to move sab damage to more upfront instant damage rather than dots, faster rotations are not going to do much.

IMO they moved it all to DoTs to address burst damage in PvP.

[Beckmann]

My latest idea to address ramp-up time...really just re-wording my previous suggestions so they are less awkward:

Rapid Setup: When out of combat, the rogue gains "Rapid Setup" buff, which causes the next to apply 5 charges and 5 CP.

Combine this talent with Silent Setup, and it lets you get off 2 sets of full charges ... (OOC = out of combat)

OOC (gain RS) > Spike (consume RS) > gain RS (still OOC) > AB > Cal > Det

So all bleeds can get going in 4 gcds.

You'd have to be sniping people unseen in PvP (in order to be out of combat) for this to work, which fits a rogue-stealthy feel. Maybe a more palatable form of the same idea?

[Enaki]

This is a sexy idea as a way to buff the overall damage. Basic rotation would be something like:

TB > FB > CB > Shrap x3 > Det > Cal x3 > Det > Shrap x3 > Det

which is basically just adding in another set of Shrap...I wonder if bombs would even be a DPS gain at that point, particularly with Ricochet. That would be a big concern of mine.

But it's a big mechanic change that doesn't address the main mechanic problem -- ramp-up time.

AB could be a bomb you use to spread your last set of charges to AE before switching stances, perhaps? Or the rotation could involve stance dancing, IDK.

Yeah, It's not a complete solution by itself. I think the only way you're going to get a double charge time to work is to back off the dots and move more the damage to large spikes, which I think is appropriate for the nature of AoE packs. I can see leaving in DoTs for ST to make it viable but only in certain situations, but for AoE we need more upfront punch. As for Bombs, I think if you start changing the "side effects" from HE to debuffs, or mini bursts or something like that it would still make them viable.

I don't know if it really is that big a mechanic's change though. We've seen rainbow before so we know they know how to double charge. Then it's just a matter of double CP (which we know they can do from other abilities). We know they can do stance damage boosts, see Riftstalker, really you're just talking about adding two new effects on top of the existing and then smoothing out DoT vs Burst.

[Beckmann]

Yeah, It's not a complete solution by itself. I think the only way you're going to get a double charge time to work is to back off the dots and move more the damage to large spikes, which I think is appropriate for the nature of AoE packs. I can see leaving in DoTs for ST to make it viable but only in certain situations, but for AoE we need more upfront punch.

Another thing DoTs have in favor of them is clipping helps form rotations, so its not just spamming one kind of charge/detonate over and over. So in principle, at least for PvE, I'm a big fan of DoTs -- but only if there's some way to get them rolling quickly.

As for Bombs, I think if you start changing the "side effects" from HE to debuffs, or mini bursts or something like that it would still make them viable.

If Ricochet affected Bombs by causing stacks of HE (up to max of ~3) then this could work as well.

[Adnoz]

It seems to me that you aren't considering bosses that spawn adds
Boss spawns adds -> 21 seconds (or whatever it is) to get full aoe damage ticking.
Cabalist:
Boss spawns adds -> AOE AOE AOE
Stormcaller:
Boss spawns adds -> hailstorm FL FL FL CF (less than 10 seconds)
Warrior:
Boss spawns adds -> already aoeing, swaps finisher to bladefury.

[Beckmann]

It seems to me that you aren't considering bosses that spawn adds
Boss spawns adds -> 21 seconds (or whatever it is) to get full aoe damage ticking.
Cabalist:
Boss spawns adds -> AOE AOE AOE
Stormcaller:
Boss spawns adds -> hailstorm FL FL FL CF (less than 10 seconds)
Warrior:
Boss spawns adds -> already aoeing, swaps finisher to bladefury.

Most bosses that spawn adds you can tell when the adds are coming, and preload one set of charges ... although you're right that leaves another set of charges as ramp-up time. Idk, this is a tough nut to crack.

[Adnoz]

Most bosses that spawn adds you can tell when the adds are coming, and preload one set of charges ... although you're right that leaves another set of charges as ramp-up time. Idk, this is a tough nut to crack.

Even when you know that adds are coming, you're still in a poor place as sabo- consider zilas, you know there will be skeletons coming up after the spin, but it takes time for them to get in range of your AOE, this means you're going to need to do absolutely nothing until they get there. A cabalist can continue casting his shadow touch or whatever, stormcaller can still do his thing, warrior is always doing his thing. Sabo must sit there and wait or he has to go through the entire process again.

[Enaki]

Most bosses that spawn adds you can tell when the adds are coming, and preload one set of charges ... although you're right that leaves another set of charges as ramp-up time. Idk, this is a tough nut to crack.

That's why I think we need to get to some kind of 4 GCD cycle for charges and why we need to get away from DoTs being a significant portion of Sab damage. If you can do competitive damage in that 4 seconds the fact that you were not damaging for 3+ of those seconds is not that big a deal. Sab is always going to have the issue of "do I go full load, or detonate early", but if you can get the charge cycle down low enough it's less of a concern.

Perhaps what we need is a Ricochet* style charge that goes on cool down after Detonate. So that you end up with a charge rotation (intentionally leaving bomb weaving out for to simplify)

Ricochet X3 -> Detonate -> Shrapnel X3 -> Detonate -> Shrapnel X3 -> Detonate ----- Repeat as needed

I guess the other way to do it (and probably simpler now that I think about it) that is along the same lines is to make a Ricochet style finisher that did the total damage+ of a full set of Shrapnel charges (when used in a multi-mob situation) and put that on cooldown. Then for a long rotation you could do:

Caltrop X3 -> Ricochet -> Shrapnel x3 -> Detonate- -> Shrapnel X3 - Detonate ---- Repeat. Bombs at that point should keep you from clipping Caltrop and they could adjust Residual's duration.

Or, if you need high quick burst you could always Shrapnel X3 -> Ricochet

* For those of you who have not read the previous suggestion threads Ricochet was originally an idea suggested by Beckmann that acts like Stormcaller's Lighting Burst.

[Beckmann]

Even when you know that adds are coming, you're still in a poor place as sabo- consider zilas, you know there will be skeletons coming up after the spin, but it takes time for them to get in range of your AOE, this means you're going to need to do absolutely nothing until they get there. A cabalist can continue casting his shadow touch or whatever, stormcaller can still do his thing, warrior is always doing his thing. Sabo must sit there and wait or he has to go through the entire process again.

True, this is just the ******** that Sab has to deal. Thus why I think it should outdps cab and stormcaller in perfect conditions. (Nevermind that that rotation is shaping up to be a lot more complicated too.)

[Beckmann]

That's why I think we need to get to some kind of 4 GCD cycle for charges and why we need to get away from DoTs being a significant portion of Sab damage. If you can do competitive damage in that 4 seconds the fact that you were not damaging for 3+ of those seconds is not that big a deal. Sab is always going to have the issue of "do I go full load, or detonate early", but if you can get the charge cycle down low enough it's less of a concern.

Perhaps what we need is a Ricochet* style charge that goes on cool down after Detonate. So that you end up with a charge rotation (intentionally leaving bomb weaving out for to simplify)

Ricochet X3 -> Detonate -> Shrapnel X3 -> Detonate -> Shrapnel X3 -> Detonate ----- Repeat as needed

I guess the other way to do it (and probably simpler now that I think about it) that is along the same lines is to make a Ricochet style finisher that did the total damage+ of a full set of Shrapnel charges (when used in a multi-mob situation) and put that on cooldown. Then for a long rotation you could do:

Caltrop X3 -> Ricochet -> Shrapnel x3 -> Detonate- -> Shrapnel X3 - Detonate ---- Repeat. Bombs at that point should keep you from clipping Caltrop and they could adjust Residual's duration.

Or, if you need high quick burst you could always Shrapnel X3 -> Ricochet

* For those of you who have not read the previous suggestion threads Ricochet was originally an idea suggested by Beckmann that acts like Stormcaller's Lighting Burst.

Another good idea. I think maybe having the AE DPS dependent on two different charge-based DoTs (spike and caltrop) is just a bad idea. If it were just one DoT for ST and another for AE then it becomes easier to pre-load and doesn't require convoluted changes to Rapid Setup to make it work. (Rapid Setup could just make charges applied out of combat apply 5 charges & 5 CP, without giving you a buff that carries into combat as well.)

Rapid Setup: Charges applied when out of combat apply 5 charges and 5 combo points.

Replace Demolition Specialist in the rotation with this Ricochet finisher that gives higher AE burst damage. Even better, keep Demolition Specialist but make it so that it serves as an "oh ****" to transmute spike & blast into caltrop & shrap. That is, if some adds appear when you have Spike charges up, you can throw up an AB and it will turn those Spike charges into Caltrop and put the Caltrop DoT on all the mobs.

Demolition Specialist: Your Annihilation Bomb detonates Spike and Blast charges, turning them into Caltrop and Shrapnel charges respectively.

Then balance the DPS of the rotation accordingly. This removes the Spike / AB / Carpet Bombing from the sustained AE dps rotation, which I was a little fond of, but its probably an improvement.

Also, it's Charged Field not Lightning Burst.

[Gery]

I've been thinking about caltrop charge and how on pts it's almost the same dps as shrapnel now but with an even longer bleed. In that form it doesn't really add anything meaningful to the soul. Instead of just another bleed what if caltrop worked like an aoe version of barbed shot. It would do an initial damage and then keeps doing damage every second the target moves for 6 seconds.