The (un)official rogue 1.8 anticipation/feedback thread

[Thrakazog]

I am seriously hoping that the tanking aspect gets something more than a casual glance. I am currently a mid HK rogue tank and I can tell you that being constantly 3rd string really sucks due to the simple fact that there is nothing that we do overly well. We mitigate less and a war tank VK can easily tank the magic based fights as well as we do.

AOE threat, while we can hit more mobs is pitiful when compared to comparably geared war and clr tanks. I simply cannot pull mobs off of them without taunting.

The ideas for fixes have been covered ad nauseam so I will not go into those here, just a sincere hope that the red headed stepchild of Rift gets some long-needed attention.

[Zyzyx]

Unless it's higher number than a full Exposure Piercing it's still going to be subpar due to the build time to apply it. The other way to make it useful would be to make it an AoE debuff.

Well if they bring back the old charge booster we can let someone else worry about the armor debuff and would mainly be using the charge for the extra damage.

[Enaki]

Well if they bring back the old charge booster we can let someone else worry about the armor debuff and would mainly be using the charge for the extra damage.

True, I have a feeling though that while we may see changes to Charge Booster they won't include rolling back to that incarnation of it. I could seeing them doubling the Charge/CP count but I'm fairly sure they'll cap it at 5 "executable".

[Racthoh]

I'd like to see something done to Riff for Bards. Either:

a) Off the global cooldown.
b) Drastic cooldown reduction, 15-20 seconds tops, the skill is high enough in the tree that no DPS spec would go for it
c) 5cps plus something to the next finisher, a big buff of some kind


As it stands the skill is too slow to do anything useful and all I ever find myself doing with it is applying Coda of Jeopardy faster than I would with a 2xCadence at the start of each fight.

[Beckmann]

Detailed sab suggestions (like Enaki's) should be reposted or linked to from the sab thread that Aillion responded to already. As Zinbik said today, creating more threads just makes it harder to keep track of detailed feedback and reduces the quality of the feedback devs get.

[Machin]

Saboteur:
1. Self Reliance: Make Saboteur viable as a DPS soul, without forcing Deadly Dance synergy (which in turn forces melee range). Since this synergy has been explicitly stated as intended, the damage potential for the soul has to be balanced around it. To that end, the Saboteur soul should stand on its own, else it is only 1/2 of a soul. This could be accomplished easily by adding a similar effect root ability around 46 points or higher that modifies Detonate, though the Saboteur version might only affect charges. Make the buff ("Deadly Detonation"? :P) and Deadly Dance mutually exclusive to prevent double dipping.

2. Trap Function: Traps have a cast time, making them difficult to cast mid-combat, though not many people would realize it, as the effects are so lackluster that no one bothers to use them anyway. To remedy this, I suggest changing "Improved Entangling Trap" to "Instant Traps", removing the Entangling Trap requirement, and having Instant Trap talent remove the cast time on traps. PVP issues are not a concern, due to Diminishing Returns.
Side note: Booby Trap is the most likely cause for concern in this scenario, as it effectively becomes a point-blank spammable bomb that is castable on-the-run. Combine this with a 32-ish point Riftstalker and you have an extremely effective AOE soloing/5/10-man tanking setup. Perhaps this is an acceptable solution to our soloing issues when compared with Warriors and Clerics. If not, Booby Trap could be moved higher in the root ability, say around 40 points or so.

3. Alternate Synergy: Someone else suggested making bombs do Fire damage to increase synergy with Nightblade. This makes a lot of sense, and could be improved further by modifying the charges to be able to use Heat Retention, as well as making the debuffing charges Fire damage as well. The result would be that all charges improve Detonate, debuff-type charges, as well as amplify bomb strength. This synergy is more elegant than the current design, and would encourage full use of the tools of the soul, as well as promoting an even-split hybrid with Saboteur.

4. Debuff Stacking: This is a game-wide issue, but bears mentioning here. Standardize debuff stacking and degree for all of the souls. If nothing else, standardize Saboteur debuffs with other Rogue souls:
a. Make "Splinter Charge" an equal debuff to "Piercing Shot" from Ranger (maxed out "Exposure", obviously, even if it requires specific points spent in Saboteur)
b. Increase "Embers Charge" to match 7% of "Coda of Distress" from Bard
c. Change Debilitating Trap to 5% to match "Waning Power" of Archon

I really enjoy the play style of Sabotuer (NOT Sabodancer!), and wish that it were viable as an alternate support soul and effective AOE DPS.

[Enaki]

Detailed sab suggestions (like Enaki's) should be reposted or linked to from the sab thread that Aillion responded to already. As Zinbik said today, creating more threads just makes it harder to keep track of detailed feedback and reduces the quality of the feedback devs get.

For those wondering which thread he is talking about it, it's this one: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...buff-sabs.html

And yeah Beckmann, I didn't think about that until after the fact so I reposted over there.

[Zyzyx]

For those wondering which thread he is talking about it, it's this one: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...buff-sabs.html

And yeah Beckmann, I didn't think about that until after the fact so I reposted over there.

There are more changes planned for 1.8 than just sab. Just consolidate it all into one thread. (This one.) That way aillion has even less to check.

EDIT: Bug report: Shadow fire is not providing the +%dmg buff when the target it hits is immune

[DiamondDog]

ignore traps they suck they dont work for anything outside of pvp

That's like me saying "Ignore toughness, it's not good for anything outside of PVE.

[DiamondDog]

Zyzyzyzyz,

2) In regards to planar attunement allowing warriors to receive TWICE the benefit of rogues:
Originally Posted by Ailion

Thank you for bringing this up.

We will be investigating this further during patch 1.8 when we ensure that Warriors scale better with Attack Power, similar to how Rogues scale.

Right now the comparison is not apples to apples and we would rather not make changes in haste right now when we plan on addressing related issues in the future.

I see that you are pretty enthusiastic that he replied to you and I don't doubt that you are likely right. However, you know how as parents we say "maybe in a little while" when we really know we won't be doing it at all. Well. that statement was laiden with the most noncommital language available and I seriously don't think it's going to happen in 1.8. Even if he's smitten by your sig, the rest of the dev team doesn't want to buff rogues any more than they have to. They haven't even investigated it and 1.8 and the event comes out soon after valentines. I don't see much happening by then.

Right now, even without Sab improvements, the P40 to P40 matchups are not balanced for rogues vs warriors and clerics. Heck, maybe not even mages now. With the valor changes and endurance changes, rogues are not on equal footing and damage is so well mitigated now that I foresee rogues rerolling in droves. At P40, assassins and NB are just getting demolished by S/B and some 2H, the clerics have too much mitigation and mages, while I can't be 100% sure yet, seem awfully damn spruced up. I'll have to see how the 1:1 P40 fights go.

[Gynxz]

EDIT: Bug report: Shadow fire is not providing the +%dmg buff when the target it hits is immune

yeah like Grug on kite phase or when a target dies before the attack hits...but I wouldn't consider it a bug. Its a big dps loss for the next 20 secs which sucks(No SF% no Greater Lesser Proc). Just requires fight knowledge and paying attention. You don't need the buff unless you are attacking something and if you are, you can land SF.


I don't see the difference between this and any other CD or refreshing a dot as Aky goes down.

Well you know what... you do have a point for PvP were the fight is very dynamic and is hard to predict. Targets dying or RS going immune. Besides this, there's only one fight, In Exp IT, that this is a problem. The Guy in the Shades area that you have to LOS on every emote.

I just consider it RNG and most of the time its predictable.

[Am0n]

Zyzyzyzyz,



I see that you are pretty enthusiastic that he replied to you and I don't doubt that you are likely right. However, you know how as parents we say "maybe in a little while" when we really know we won't be doing it at all. Well. that statement was laiden with the most noncommital language available and I seriously don't think it's going to happen in 1.8. Even if he's smitten by your sig, the rest of the dev team doesn't want to buff rogues any more than they have to. They haven't even investigated it and 1.8 and the event comes out soon after valentines. I don't see much happening by then.

Right now, even without Sab improvements, the P40 to P40 matchups are not balanced for rogues vs warriors and clerics. Heck, maybe not even mages now. With the valor changes and endurance changes, rogues are not on equal footing and damage is so well mitigated now that I foresee rogues rerolling in droves. At P40, assassins and NB are just getting demolished by S/B and some 2H, the clerics have too much mitigation and mages, while I can't be 100% sure yet, seem awfully damn spruced up. I'll have to see how the 1:1 P40 fights go.

Why would you think 1.8 will be released around Valentines Day? I haven't seen this anywhere, and nothing other than ID, and a few anticipated tweaks have even been announced for 1.8 yet. The event will come out within 1.7.

[Zyzyx]

Why would you think 1.8 will be released around Valentines Day? I haven't seen this anywhere, and nothing other than ID, and a few anticipated tweaks have even been announced for 1.8 yet. The event will come out within 1.7.

There is a 24 hour world event occurring on valentines day and probably another longer world event after that. We got to see some of this new world event on the pts. I don't expect 1.8 to hit live for 2-3 months from now.

[potis]

I think 1.8 is mid march or so according to the interview late January.

Following the HK testing that went June-->July-->extended World Event-->Release at Auguest

We should see Mid March release of ID/Rank 10 (50)/other stuff.

Anyways..Need to read PTS notes, randomly posting stuff wont change a thing or it has already been mentioned.

Rogue calling overall:

Need 10% reduction of energy cost on every ability, like Controlled Fire does, Warriors got that, dont see why we didnt/cant have it, will fix most energy issues. (They did on heavy power abilities at least)

Saboteur wise:

1)Most charges are useless

2)Bombs are useless

3)Traps are useless

4)Above makes whole spec useless

5)The whole "Requires 20sin" needs to disappear, keep them as poison, give the 15% Poison Damage sin gives by default to the charges and change that talent to not affect them or whatever, its annoying to be pigeon holded into 20 sin always.

6)Remove Detonate-->Make bombs the finishers with proper AP scaling and random fun/aoe effects-->Voila.

Traps cant become useful really, cant think of a way to make them useful, unless they are instant and scale with AP and can be thrown from range, they are just useless ;D

Ranger wise:

1) Energy cost on casted shots need to be brought down aka need the overall Rogue change i mentioned

2)Pet still useless since it dies from everything and doesnt scale, King of the Jungle needs to get adjusted every 5 months to match the gear levels instead, which is dumb.

3)Rain of Arrows doesnt seem to scale? Aka useless.

Assassin:

I have a feeling Bloodstalker will get nerfed soon, so lots of QQ will appear.

Otherwise the spec could use a small change at 51 talent to make the bleeds stronger to make 51 Sin viable as a full on bleed spec, 20% more Bleed damage would work.

Bladedancer:

Precision Strike has a too long cooldown, needs a 5 second one instead to be honest, to give it the missing DPS, , too many useless defending talents still, not sure what to do with those.

Riftstalker:

Planar Switch is a good concept but almost useless right now..

Needs more Health scaling, as i said before remove the 10% from the Bard tree, and give it to the RS spec by default.

Bard:

Change the 10% health talent, give it to RS in Improved Guardian passively at 51 points, make the 10% health into healing done/healing received, will make us have Warrior HP levels while keeping BD/Ranger spec without making Bard a useless synergy ..10% healing received is still interesting, might end up OP a bit.

Remove the useless Motif of Encougarement, give us a Cleanse on its place instead, 10 second CD i guess/10 people or a spammable single person one, not really sure what would be balanced.

MM:

Without the 4 Piece crystal the spec becomes much weaker, the original EM should be re-added again at some point, need to see ID bonuses to confirm so meh until then.

Nightblade:

WTB better Fiery Spike scaling.



Not sure what i forgot ;D

[Gunzip]

I'm amazed as to how much free time you guys have to actually theory craft and breakdown possible changes, keep up the good work, TRION should hire a few of you guys as interns