i agree
Went in to HK outher night whit me as a rouge tank and a friend as a cleric tank.
1st boss i had to stop tanking at 3 stacks wile our cleric took 14 stacks before he got killed.
are armour neeeds to be raised for us to have any chance to be used in HK .
devs some feed back plz!
Question is the stack from the boss cleansable at all? If so then using skatter the shadows would allow you to reset the stacks, and as such tank longer then you would otherwise.Originally Posted by darksupport
I like most everything that you've said other than the dps. Yes, our dps COULD very much be better I agree whole heartedly but you must have not played a cleric tank? You want abysmal dps? Go play a cleric tank. That thing is pathetic, laughable, disgustingly bad, terribly pathetic, badly pathetic, etc, etc, etc I can could on and on about cleric tank dps...
I honestly think removing the dmg penalty in tank stances for the cleric and rogue could definately help. Meanwhile warriors dont lose anything and gain everything dmg wise through talents/etc
Warriors dps while tanking is through the roof.
Clerics is lowest.
Rogues middle of the rogue, COULD be better but not lower then clerics.
Last edited by Bart151; 08-03-2011 at 11:41 AM.
I agree but i said one of the lowest not the lowest. Rogue is pretty high in single target, but cleric is higher in multi target dps. We give up dps/threat to be better on other areas of threat, warriors are pretty good overall in threat/dps in all of the tanking areas. I try to average out the difference in threat/damage between the two areas since if you take out the dps reduction we have it would effectively up our dps overall.
blood shield compares to rift guard NOW, except blood shield doesnt absorb magic damage. dk's have anti magic shell for that.
dk's also have higher armor than the two tanks that can block, higher health than the two tanks that can block and copious amounts of cooldowns because...they cant block.
hint hint, trion. as someone who has played the mt for whatever guild he's in since 1993 you could learn a little from blizzard here.
They could also learn how to basically make what would equate to one tank that has three skins of abilities. Dk,pally, and warriors were basically the same tank but with slight (i mean slight) changes to them. Also they could learn to create a game that is largely empty till max level (this is pretty well happening anyway.). I would rather trion just put wow out tf their mind and deal with what they have build a good game from what they have now. I will say that you are right DK is alot like riftstalker in afew ways with all the boubles and such it has, but it is not compltely the same either.
How about another buff in our RS tree that deals with plane shifting? Something like a 5% chance to have a physical attack just go through us, when it happens we have a cool graphic where our character becomes semi transparent. Another 5% of pure avoidance should even the disparity right?
The issue with plane shifting is the movement involved sicne if you move forward the boss might be looking at the raid. Now if it were either a finisher or a activated ability it would work better since you would not move, but instead just blink out and then back into the plane to evade the blow.
I haven't tanked HK but it sounds pretty rough, so far I've tanked the hardest hitting content pre HK, greenscale/herald/plutonus and I did fine. Since I have no experience in HK I won't comment on that.
A few comments I do have to add is that plana switch be a passive ability that switches combo points from 1 target your in combat with to another target your in combat with by simply using planar strike, yes ONLY planar strike. This makes up for some ****ty aoe threat because we can rotate single target threat yet we can keep our 5cp finishers up. It might be pretty tedious to tab target 3+ mobs but I'll do what I gotta do to keep aggro between every 8 seconds.
A fun idea I had was to improve defer death, defer death is so pointless. The only use I've ever found in it was when I got jumped by 10 guards in world pvp to use it + soul recall and /s Pricks! The name could be changed to Escape death or something of that reguard, 5+min cooldown, on activation the next blow that would otherwise kill the rogue instead heals him for 500% of its damage, if its an autoattack from a non elite mob it might only heal you 2k but it can give your healer the time they need to catch up. While verse a raid boss it can be used as our OH ****! button like a warriors full heal. (in which case a 10min cd would be understandable)
Once again it comes down to wanting to tank on a Rogue the way Warriors tank; Reroll Warrior.
Parry needs to work like Block - Mitigating damage by 50%
Dodge needs to Mitigate damage by 100%
As we've stated before, for every successful DODGE/PARRY Rift Guard/Barrier needs to stack up to a maximum of 40% of the Rogue's maximum health for damage absorbed on the next attack.
What part of Rogue says High armor and able to take a hit? Again, that sounds like a Warrior.
- Vybz
Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM
Avoidance tanking sucks. No matter how good your avoidance is, you WILL get strings of fails and you WILL die. Bruisers in EQ2 had a 98% chance to feign death and reset the mobs who had agro'd them. I've seen it fail 4 times in a row. RNG tanking doesn't work.
You complain about people wanting to use rogues as warrior tanks, then go on to suggest that parry reduces damage by a %age... just like block does for (wait for it) warriors?
So that leaves us with.... mitigation and hitpoints. It doesn't have to be through armor, it can be through shields that we have to activate. Make our shields (Rift Guard and Rift Barrier) stack and scale with END or AP.
Giving us DPS would be a good thing as well. Warriors increase raid DPS through Spotter's Order, how about, since we have twice as many weapons, we actually get some DPS? Say 1,000 DPS (top end gear) while tanking? I've seen warriors saying that SO gives the raid about 2k DPS, letting us do half that shouldn't be a problem.
Yes tanking via pure avoidance is not as reliable as tanking thru mitigation, and that is not somethat that can be debated at all. Now to say that you cann't find ways to make avoidance tanking vaible is not correct, since if you gave the avoidance tank abilities that would procc off their avoidance and also giving them ways to mitigate the damage they take when a string of hits do get thru. Not going to debate this since that is not the purpose of this thread. I used it as more of a way to show that we could gain a mitigation ability that is tied to dodging/parrying, which would match the style of what a rogue normally comes to mind as being. I am against making our dodge or parry work like a block ouright, but making it that as we parry/dodge attack we gain a damage reduction to the upcoming attack/s. THIs idea as it has been posted beofre could easily be worked and woreded to be like a charging of planar energy as you dodge/parry which as you get hit are released shifting you partially out of phase to weaken the attack.
I would not mind seeing a damge buff to rogues that make us compete with the so buff that warriors give to a raid. I think though you could do one of the fallowing (i believe both have been suggested beofre.); first up annilate to grant both ap and sp also making it a raid wide buff, as well as uping the amount of
ap as well as sp it grants to the raid. The second is to make it into a debuff on the target that destablizes the target making them take additional damage from party/raid memeber's attacks.
The part where the game mechanics require high armour or some other form of mitigation to be able to take a hit. Having a stacking buff from dodging or parrying is a terrible idea -- again, I ask, what happens when your avoidance fails? Your tanking is left ENTIRELY to luck. That's not something any raid is going to want. Go read the class description(s) if you're failing to understand Riftstalker's background, as it were. In any event the balance of gameplay is way more important than your preconceived notion of what a Rogue is supposed to be.
The playstyle of Riftstalker should be mostly preserved while bringing them up to par with other tanks and especially Warriors in terms of utility and physical mitigation. Completely altering how a class plays this far into the game in order to bring it into the "traditional" Rogue archetype set by other games is just asking for problems. The class performs its function up until a certain point in gear where it falters in favour of other classes. That is the issue that should be addressed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: shut up and go away, your ideas are stupid.
So basically you want to give us a 0pt bard motif ability as a finisher. Except raid builds use bard already anyway. Your other option is Spotter's Order by a different name?
What about this instead of Annihilate:
Planar Destruction
(60 second recast [45 secs after Shadow Mastery], 20m range)
The Riftstalker teleports infront of his target and drags it into the planes. This reduces the Physical damage done by the target by 30%, and increases planar damage against it by 10% for 20 seconds. When this effect wears off, the target rematerialises, causing a shockwave that deals weapon damage plus 223-227 physical damage to the target and up to 10 additional enemies. Using Shadow Blitz or Shadow Stalk will refresh the debuff on this target (20 seconds). This ability (and it's AoE) generates additional threat.
This gives us some more physical resists against a single target (we aren't really AoE tanks anyway), as well as a boost to raid damage, but only magical. It's not a carbon copy of Spotter's Orders given another name. It will give people a choice, do I refresh the debuff, or let it fall off for the extra AoE threat? If you want the debuff on the target, you have to refresh it. If you want the extra AoE, you can't refresh the debuff and will have to wait 40 seconds to get it back.
The best part about it is that it gives us a reason to use our teleports in-combat. All we'd need to do then is change the buffs that teleporting gives us (run speed? really?) and we're golden. The only issue I can see with it is that it would have to be moved deeper into the tree... how about swapping it with Planar Switch for our 31pt ability?
Last edited by Paikis; 08-03-2011 at 08:29 PM. Reason: Now in colour!
Yes it would be so via a different name, though you would not need a warrior tank to specc for it this is just a suggestion hwo to up th damge we deal and give to the raid, not the first choice although saddly the choices are not that many. It would be nice to have in groups with no bards in them, outside of raids. Though you could also make it a defensive finisher that lowers the physical output of the target by partially phasing him out of the plane for a period of time. the biggest problem with abilities that are going to up our overall mitigation they might make us too good at taking physical damage (we are not the physical damage tank, but the magic mitigation tanks.), if this happens normally the class would get nerfed really bad from my exp.
THe Planar Destruction would serve two features a way to gain both threat and also a way to reduce the physical damage we would be taking. As welll as giving us more changes and choices in our rotation when tanking.
The only other idea would be a ability that would store planar power, when we use plane shifting abilities, and the use you activated or release the buff you gained it would create a planar distruption that weakens all incoming physical damage based on hwo much planar energy you absorbed from shifting. THe bad idea of this is that you do not shift as much as you would expect since most of them would turn the boss when you used them.
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