Why are people pairing Assassin with MM instead of NB?

[Duske]

If we're crit happy why not take MM/*****/Inf?

I'm running what is considered the five main/CC builds for a MM, purely PvP and find that Break Free is invaluable, the +10 Crit against players to be fantastic. Everytime I spec out of Inf I miss it waaaay to much.

There are many ways to play the MM, some like to 'HoT' the ped (I hate it but the damage is insane with everything up).

What I find I don't miss is Ranger, I don't parse, I don't peen, I just don't notice a lack of damage with not using it...I like a crit based MM, been that way since 25 and feel I can lose the +ranged damage/pet for %5 more crit against players.

Anyone tried MM/Inf/7 RNG?

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M....EMtRqzAudo.VM

Hello,

I think you are mistaken or misread the talent. Inf does not give you 10% crit CHANCE, it gives you 10% crit DAMAGE.

That means instead of critting for 1.5X your critting for 1.65. Or (if this helps) it makes every point of crit you have a .55% dps increase instead of a .5% dps increase. That means with say, 30% crit instead of it being a 15% dps increase, its a 16.5% dps increase. 5 talents points for 1.5 more dps? Dont know about that.

It certainly will make your BIG numbers bigger, lets say you normally hit for 1500, that means you would crit for 2250. This talent would make that crit a 2325 crit.

it is also worth noting that Assassins have a similar talent (Magnify Pain) which gives you a 20% increase, 10% per point invested (2 points) vs infiltrator has a 10% increase, 2% per point (5 points).

Doesnt seem very cost effective.

The main reason (besides breaking CC) to go Inf are murderous thoughts (6% total damage vs players) and focused intent (a scaling debuff, however, while it looks GREAT, remember its only got a 30% chance to apply. This means getting full stacks is unlikely on a target before its dead in PvP, unless its a flag carrier being healed a ton).

If you want big crits, your better going assassin for your second soul. You would get 4% physical damage (vs 6% total damage), +10% crit chance, and 20% crit damage (meaning in the same example of 30% base crit, you are gaining a total of 9% damage to critable effects).

So the net is 13%. Now, I admit i dont know the effects of armor penetration to model it. If the armor pen from infiltrator is a significant source of dps, then Infiltrator all the way!!

[Duske]

Killing Focus is adding 0% right now. It was broken on alpha and it still is, wasted points.

I tested this last night to confirm. Killing Focus (Ranger + % ranged talent ) does nothing for your damage.

So yeah, that ranger/assassin/marksmen build looks even poorer...

[Thraive]

I have tried a 51 Marksman spec in PVP and in my opinion that unless you are completely unharrassed(good luck with that) and sit on the pedestal (or roam to it effectively every 15 sec or burn CD every position change) it underperforms a NB build in more than just DPS. I ran a 40MM 26NB through P4 and the damage/survivability wasn't even a contest. Since 1.2, NB is even better with MM. I am running 19 MM 32NB 15 Inf and while I don't have optimal range and imp hit and run, I have solid consistent DPS with crazy burst on a 30 sec CD (SOD+Rapid Fire Shot is insane) rather than two beefy hit and runs (2 min CD) on a 3 min Quick Reload CD. 2-3 minutes in a WF is a long time. If you are matching up a with a decent premade a solid cleric with support/backup heals can make it thru a hefty load of burst, not to mention as soon as they see a couple of Eradicates go off, you are about to get focused down. SOD, Dark Malady, Heat Retention, etc easily surpasses what I put out in Emp shot/DE on CD, not to mention the ability to AOE Heal Debuff + Anthamea on main healers. I know this thread ihas been geared toward what spec does the most DPS, but I think that a 51 MM probably won't be alive to sustain the DPS (unless you are fighting scrubs with no dedicated healer) and even if he could, a NB spec would out perform him.

So... a build that would beat raw damage of a 51/7/8 would be 40 MM 26 NB. I don't have time for the math (although Duske did a great job and pretty much summed it up), but then again neither did the person bragging.

[Gunzip]

I love how someone came here and tried to prove mathmatically that those points in Assasin were better.

Except calculated for an extra 50% crit damage so he lost.

Then someone tried to say that you'd need 50% crit to justify 1% in damage blah blah blah. 60% crit on empowered shot/deadeye, 45% crit on all others. That's about right, especially during Imp. Hit and Run.

Nobody has linked a talent build that beats the 51MM/8Ass/7Ranger build.

****ing *****, I know what I'm talking about, all these cute little builds you've mentioned? I've tried.

Any build with less than 38 points is NOT WORTH IT. You lose TREMENDOUS amounts of DPS due to being energy starved on a CD with a lot of uptime and you give up one of the most OP abilities in the game.

Overall what the last 5 pages of posters did was prove me correct.

46 AP, 15% crit (to total 45%, 60% with emp/deadeye), 8% damage, 30% pedestal, etc > beats the other 20 crap builds posted in damage.

Even the guy with the incorrect crit value modifier said it was a 36% damage increase, whereas my build is a 38% damage increase with pedestal and significantly more crit + purge.

Megatf whats up man, I played a hunter in WoW too for 4 years, gave up on Blizzard screwing that class over in pvp

[Dao Jones]

I know this thread ihas been geared toward what spec does the most DPS, but I think that a 51 MM probably won't be alive to sustain the DPS (unless you are fighting scrubs with no dedicated healer) and even if he could, a NB spec would out perform him.

"What does the most DPS" is rarely optimal in PvP.

My goal with this thread was just to understand why Assassin seemed to be the pick of choice over NB, despite NB's (seemingly) superior bonuses. Honestly, there's been a lot of math flying around that argues both sides, and when I playtested both builds I really didn't see enough of an obvious difference to win me over.

At this point all I know is that I want 44 MM for Eradicate (too useful to toss just for a bit more DPS), and Infiltrator for the zero point BF. I've looked at 17 Sin/5 Inf and 18 NB/4 Inf (as well as 22 in both), and all seem to perform roughly comparably. It might be that my gear is just not where it needs to be to distinguish one from the other. (I'm a pretty fresh 50 with the zero rank PvP gear, a 30.2 DPS bow, and mixed blues/purples from cairns or crafting.)

[Picollus]

Rank 6 geared rogue here btw. Take the 21 sin for improved permastealth. It lets you pick your fights, and unless you run 100% in a premade then you want that capability for true pvp godness.

At this rank I've killed 2 rank5/6 clerics at the same time, solo.

Just remember to use all the sin tools availble including incapacitate etc and you will be awesome against all except the very best.

By the way, the lifeleech greater essences, and leeching poison will help your survivability a great deal.

[sourdiesel22]

I have tried a 51 Marksman spec in PVP and in my opinion that unless you are completely unharrassed(good luck with that) and sit on the pedestal (or roam to it effectively every 15 sec or burn CD every position change) it underperforms a NB build in more than just DPS. I ran a 40MM 26NB through P4 and the damage/survivability wasn't even a contest. Since 1.2, NB is even better with MM. I am running 19 MM 32NB 15 Inf and while I don't have optimal range and imp hit and run, I have solid consistent DPS with crazy burst on a 30 sec CD (SOD+Rapid Fire Shot is insane) rather than two beefy hit and runs (2 min CD) on a 3 min Quick Reload CD. 2-3 minutes in a WF is a long time. If you are matching up a with a decent premade a solid cleric with support/backup heals can make it thru a hefty load of burst, not to mention as soon as they see a couple of Eradicates go off, you are about to get focused down. SOD, Dark Malady, Heat Retention, etc easily surpasses what I put out in Emp shot/DE on CD, not to mention the ability to AOE Heal Debuff + Anthamea on main healers. I know this thread ihas been geared toward what spec does the most DPS, but I think that a 51 MM probably won't be alive to sustain the DPS (unless you are fighting scrubs with no dedicated healer) and even if he could, a NB spec would out perform him.

So... a build that would beat raw damage of a 51/7/8 would be 40 MM 26 NB. I don't have time for the math (although Duske did a great job and pretty much summed it up), but then again neither did the person bragging.

this dude here knows wat he's talking about!! 32NB/19MM/15INF is the way to dominate clerics which will result in dominating the whole wf.. anyone running 51MM should uninstall, same goes for rogues running around stealthed trying to solo gank.. i usually end up with top kb's/dmg even when my main focus is just killing the clerics. my premade wont let me run any other spec than this wen doing warfronts because the double heal debuff is that good, like the majority of warriors running VK. this spec is wat makes the difference. sure i could run a spec that does **** like this http://i54.tinypic.com/9b92c8.jpg but i'd rather help the group take down clerics which is the most important thing other than actually doing the wf objectives.. these are my opinions tho if u wanna keep being a fail rogue by all means go ahead, only makes the rest of us look better.

[Meccros]

first and foremost if it works for someone then great, i believe there is no "best" spec of anything in this game and it will all depend on what you need. 1 person may value break free and cleanse soul higher than another person values an additional 20% dmg (for example)

this is mainly in reply to this

MY BUILD DOES MORE DAMAGE THAN ANY LISTED BUILD HERE. IT OUTPERFORMS IN PREMADES AS WELL AS PUGS BECAUSE OF THE INSANE DAMAGE DURING IMP HIT AND RUN, BULLSEYE, QUICK RELOAD.

51marks/8sin/7rng

vs

38 marks/17 sin/7rng (4 points to spare)

comparing for burst dmg potential only (if you feel you need eradicate then it's a whole other issue. but since were only comparing the insane damage during hit and run then lets work this out)

51 pedestal = 30%
- 18 pedestal = 10%
-----------------------------
difference of 20%
- cruel Vengeance 10%
------------------------------
10% dmg difference

then you have to weigh 10% overall dmg vs 20% additional crit dmg. seeing as this is pvp and not pve. then personally i would take the additional 20% crit dmg since deadeye and empowered shot is critting so much (probably 50%-60% range for most) that during improved hit and run 20% crit > 10% dmg in my eyes

higher burst potential again would be a mm/nb spec with SoD up before improved hit and run. this would also have more utility with fel blades,twilight force, twilight shelter, etc...

i kept the theoritical points in ranger just to compare. i've been running 38mm/17sin/11inf or 44mm/17sin/5inf but personally i use other specs than marksman most

also bugged ranger talents and all

[Shinigam1]

I have tried a 51 Marksman spec in PVP and in my opinion that unless you are completely unharrassed(good luck with that) and sit on the pedestal (or roam to it effectively every 15 sec

You know you can stop for 1 second and recast a ped right? If you can trust that there are healers in your warfronts you can go all out on damage in your spec instead of designing it like a 1v1 setup.

[Meccros]

also, everyone knows this is truly the best marksman spec going, for obvious reasons

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...I0q.EMtRVkAudo

[Kalos]

also, everyone knows this is truly the best marksman spec going, for obvious reasons

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...I0q.EMtRVkAudo

Why Rift Scavenger? In my experience that's pretty worthless in PvP.

[Meccros]

Why Rift Scavenger? In my experience that's pretty worthless in PvP.

you failed to see the joke