Spell crit vs spell power calculations

[Redcruxs]

I posted this in a thread in the general forums but I think it will be of more use here:

I'm using this formula for calculating dps

[(base spell damage + (spellpower * .2 * cast time * spell coeff.))*(1 - crit chance) + (base spell damage + (spellpower * .2 * cast time * spell coeff.))*(crit chance * 1.5)] / cast time

using an rough estimate of 800 spell power and 300 crit. assuming a 50% crit modifier (no tempest)

spam casting a 1.5 second spell with 75 base damage assuming 60% spell power coeff. (roughly void bolt) infinitely

will give 232.14 dps

now a gear upgrade choice comes along... do you pick up 10 more spell power or 20 more crit?

800 sp 300 crit = 232.14 dps
800 sp 320 crit = 233.02 dps
810 sp 300 crit = 234.05 dps <---- spellpower wins


i repeated this for a wide range of spellpower and crit values and found that a crit upgrade will almost never be better than a spellpower upgrade. (assuming its a 2:1 trade off)

now with tempest (+30% crit damage) the difference is smaller, but spellpower still comes out ahead

also as your spellpower gets higher and higher, crit becomes more valuable. once you get into the 1300 spellpower range then crit becomes better

[Entangled]

This coincides with exactly what I came to believe the other day just from running #'s in my head. Good to see it tested though.

[sinrakin]

I posted this in a thread in the general forums but I think it will be of more use here:
[(base spell damage + (spellpower * .2 * cast time * spell coeff.))*(1 - crit chance) + (base spell damage + (spellpower * .2 * cast time * spell coeff.))*(crit chance * 1.5)] / cast time

using an rough estimate of 800 spell power and 300 crit. assuming a 50% crit modifier (no tempest)

It doesn't make a difference other than the work of calculating it, but you can rewrite your formula more simply:

dps =
[(base spell damage + (spellpower * .2 * cast time * spell coeff.)) * (1 + 0.5*crit chance)] / cast time

You can easily verify that it comes out the same.

[Combustion]

Shhhhh dont let our secrets out, let them keep stacking crit happily!

[Kurt]

This does not surprise me at all, in all MMOs I have played stacking spell power / attack power has, for the most part been better then stacking crit.

[Redcruxs]

in the last game i played (runes of magic) your crits could hit up to 225% harder than normal hits... so these calculations were important but in this game 50% is pittiful... its almost not even worth critting

probably easier to balance though

[Lothamar]

in the last game i played (runes of magic) your crits could hit up to 225% harder than normal hits... so these calculations were important but in this game 50% is pittiful... its almost not even worth critting

probably easier to balance though

I early beta crit was 100%.

=/

[RookBP]

The numbers change when your spected into tempest (for example) since tempest gives a 30% increase to crit damage for all spells using something a spec like the SC/Ele build. With this build, you now have a 1.8 vs. 1.5 damage increase on crits and that changes things.

It makes sense to have a crit stat between 70-80% of your sp total since when you crit you increase damage by 1.8 vs 1.5. That 30% makes a huge difference in the SP vs. Crit discussion and calculations is all.

Rook

[DaddyDaz]

ok, i've been going over these numbers again to now include tempest. i did a ruff 5 min parse as SC/Ele with ACT to check how many times i cast each spell. i then took that number and figured out it's % of times used. then i linked that % to the % of spell power that each spell used. numbers looked like this..

5 min on boss dummy - Total # of attacks was 164. my DPS on this quick run down was 860 DPS so please consider this with my math. you may be getting more, or less. also, i did not include Static Discharge in due to it not hitting and the fact that SP/CDs are the only thing increasing this. i was looking at the crit effected spells in this. (and yes i know that SD is beast lol)
#71 43% of the hits were Lightning Field, uses 37% SP
#36 22% of the hits were Raging Storm, uses 69% SP
#22 13% of the hits were Ice Shear, uses 19% SP
#19 12% of the hits were Lightning Strike, uses 45% SP
#16 10% of the hits were Thunderbolt, uses 27% SP
!!! 41.66 % average use of spell power in SC/ELE ( a pretty healthy % of SP used imo)
and yes i'm sure i can clean this up a bit, thanks. used it for an outline of how many times i cast what per 5 min.

now given that spell power scales linear, you can do the math
26.32 per 1% crit
52.64 per 2% crit <-- use this amount for crit and sp calculations for clarity
52.64 x 41.66%
every 52.64 sp is 22 DPS (+21.93 dps)
crit does not scale linear though. so what you have to do is multiply the the Sustained DPS by the increase in crit, and with SC/ELE make the crit value .8 (80%) instead of .5 (50%)

so i start with the base 860 DPS, and add in either 52.64 sp, or 2% crit, and continue to check crits value with spell power. when you do this, you get numbers like this.
860 dps. 1000 spell power <-- - (is what i parsed at on the dummy, no math)
882 dps with 1052.64 spell power, and no change to crit
874 dps with 1000 spell power and 50 increase to crit

904 dps with 1105.28 sp
926 dps with 1158 sp no crit change
918 dps with 1105.28 sp and 2% more crit

992 dps with 1310.56 sp
1014 dps w/ 1363 sp no change to crit
1008 dps with 1310.56 sp and 2% increase to crit

1080 dps with 1526.12 sp
1102 dps with 1579 sp no change to crit
1097 dps with 1526.12 sp and 2% increase to crit

1300 dps with 2052.8 sp
1322 dps with 2105 sp
1321 dps with 2053.8 sp and 2% to crit

1344 dps with 2158 sp
1366 dps with 2210.64 sp
1365.5 dps with 2158 sp and 2% to crit ( so close )

1388 dps with 2263 sp <------- !!!! magic number !!!
1399 dps with 2289.32 sp (26.32 more spell power)
1399.1 dps with 2263 sp and 1% crit (again, 1% crit increase here)

SO, even with Tempest, SP is still worth more then crit until you get to ruffly 1388 dps sustained, even in the SC/ELE combo. AGAIN THOUGH.. this does not include Static Discharge which would make SP value a lot higher across the board.

also, i see a lot of people talking about how you need to hit 1100-1300 spell power for crit to have it's value increased. this is not the case by my numbers. spell power needed to hit would be 2263ish. not gonna happen anytime soon with the gear we have out, and tbh i doubt we will see it before a massive level increasing expansion.

so.. just to recap, these numbers were based around the SC/Ele build and Tempest on a 5 min boss dummy parse.

i don't think i know everything or any off the wall crap like that. i just was curious and wanted to try and get a little more clarity on sp vs crit including Tempest. if ANYONE has anything that would help me out, that would be great. if my numbers are off, or my logic isn't sound, PLEASE help me out. i don't want to be correct if i'm not, i just want better DPS.

[Redcruxs]

SO, even with Tempest, SP is still worth more then crit until you get to ruffly 1388 dps sustained, even in the SC/ELE combo. AGAIN THOUGH.. this does not include Static Discharge which would make SP value a lot higher across the board.

yep, your method was a bit different than mine, but i came to the same conclusion: over ~1300 SP, crit becomes more valuable

its what i've been saying all along, but nobody seems to listen hahaha

[DaddyDaz]

yep, your method was a bit different than mine, but i came to the same conclusion: over ~1300 SP, crit becomes more valuable

its what i've been saying all along, but nobody seems to listen hahaha

actually, i had it come to 1300+ DPS sustained, not spell power. but i'm with ya though. originally i had worked numbers that worked off of spell power as well, but then realized that crit was actually improved off of base sustained dps. what i came to for spell power ended up being a lot higher. 2263 sp without bard/archon buffs etc. i know in a raid setting this number would be changed a bit, but we still were on the right page of spell power trumping crit.

[DeadlySight]

actually, i had it come to 1300+ DPS sustained, not spell power. but i'm with ya though. originally i had worked numbers that worked off of spell power as well, but then realized that crit was actually improved off of base sustained dps. what i came to for spell power ended up being a lot higher. 2263 sp without bard/archon buffs etc. i know in a raid setting this number would be changed a bit, but we still were on the right page of spell power trumping crit.

Ok, so with 1.8x crit the magic # is roughly... 2300 sp.. not happening

What about real raiders running 1.95x crits. I'm assuming the magic # would drop to roughly 1700sh?

[DaddyDaz]

Ok, so with 1.8x crit the magic # is roughly... 2300 sp.. not happening

What about real raiders running 1.95x crits. I'm assuming the magic # would drop to roughly 1700sh?

yeah, 2300 sp is a lil out there, but it's what gave the same value for crit with the 80% from tempest. crit just scaled so slowly, and spell power being linear works so well. i'm not sure what the .95 would be. lets see. so just playin around real fast. 1110 sustained dps/50 (2% crit increase over the 52.64 spell power) would give crit the same value as .8 gives at 1388 dps. this again is not including static discharge as it doesn't crit.

[DaddyDaz]

yeah, 2300 sp is a lil out there, but it's what gave the same value for crit with the 80% from tempest. crit just scaled so slowly, and spell power being linear works so well. i'm not sure what the .95 would be. lets see. so just playin around real fast. 1110 sustained dps/50 (2% crit increase over the 52.64 spell power) would give crit the same value as .8 gives at 1388 dps. this again is not including static discharge as it doesn't crit.

sorry.. not 1110. 1155. shoulda double checked before i let that one out. 5 min edits are not ftw. lol
so 1155 sustained dps would be the same with 95% damage to crit. assuming you're talking about using the whet stone for the 2hds

[Shadivak]

Are we just talking about pve here? Because I think this is a different story in pvp. You need the burst from a lot of crits to drop targets in pvp. Sustained dps arguments are all swell and good, but burst kills in pvp.