Cleric DPS is falling behind......again

[TheGreatShabba]

So you're mad cause you have a ranged option that isn't terribly behind? Warriors manage to melee dps on every fight, why can't Clerics?

Why don't you go look up the Bolt n Jolt spec and then come back. I'll wait.

Ahov - You're willing to accept that Shaman is fundamentally broken and Inquisitor and Druid are ~500 dps behind Warriors/Mages/Rogues because we have a single fringe spec that's not usable in the majority of raid encounters?

[fitness]

Remotely competitive is Shaman, Druid and Inquisitor.

Those WERE competitive pre 1.8 with assumption of perfect rotation. Overall for cleric to pull decent dps to be competitive, the rotation must be flawless. Post 1.8 - even with perfect rotation the output will be average at the best, BnJ aside.

[Ahov]

Why don't you go look up the Bolt n Jolt spec and then come back. I'll wait.

Ahov - You're willing to accept that Shaman is fundamentally broken and Inquisitor and Druid are ~500 dps behind Warriors/Mages/Rogues because we have a single fringe spec that's not usable in the majority of raid encounters?

It's usable on most encounters. In any situation where warriors are suffering, BnJ is suffering about the same, still putting it ahead in most cases.

This same argument is used by bad mages about 38/28. They don't see it as "viable" for most fights, generally because they are...bad.

[Ahov]

Those WERE competitive pre 1.8 with assumption of perfect rotation. Overall for cleric to pull decent dps to be competitive, the rotation must be flawless. Post 1.8 - even with perfect rotation the output will be average at the best, BnJ aside.

Even for Bolt n Bolt to be competitive you can't make silly mistakes like clipping Lightning/Vex/SH....or waiting too long on BoD procs. But, it would not be fair to compare callings with different environments.

When comparing DPS between a warrior and a cleric, you must always use an equal-geared, equal-skilled pair. At the high end of each, you will see clerics consistently beating warriors in ST dps.

[Ivengar]

Shaman and Druid are NOT valid DPS spec in 1.8. So you can stop talking like they are.

51 INQ is is accepted as a valid DPS only because it is ranged yet when you compare our range numbers to Rogues and Mages we are not even in the same ballpark let alone the same game.

JnB is our ONLY high DPS spec that has a tight rotation that needs lots of attention to keep up as well it is only good in a limited movement 1 target only fight.

Lastly we have 51 cab which use to be the best AOE spec in game but does not look to be that way anymore.

Now warriors have a single rolle they can play that puts out not only high single target damage it also has faceroll AOE damage and they can macro it to two buttons.

[mattya802]

Why don't you go look up the Bolt n Jolt spec and then come back. I'll wait.

Uhh, ok? Same as 51ch builds dude. Disconnects suck for both, but we deal with it.

Lastly we have 51 cab which use to be the best AOE spec in game but does not look to be that way anymore.

Now warriors have a single rolle they can play that puts out not only high single target damage it also has faceroll AOE damage and they can macro it to two buttons.

Why do people complain about the difference from 10k to 11k aoe dps on trash? It makes no difference until there's a fight you need huge amounts of sustained aoe dmg.

Care to share this 2 button Warrior spec that is top AoE and ST dps? I guess I'm doing it all wrong!

[Zinbik]

Though we do know there are still many abilities that are missing coefficients in the xml data. That and the base damage is incorrect for most abilities.

The ones missing coefficients (like Spiritual Conflagration missing the the absorb's coefficient) are due to the fact that those abilities are actually set up as multiple abilities internally. It's still on Engineering's list to try to figure out a way to include those too, as well as to figure out why the base damage is being reported incorrectly.

This data seems a bit... "huh?('ish)"

      <AbilityRank>
        <Number>6</Number>
        <RequiredLevel>46</RequiredLevel>
        <AbilityId>1849605572</AbilityId>
        <Description>Absorbs 831 damage. Lasts 30s. Cannot target the Cleric.</Description>
        <IsPassive>False</IsPassive>
        <Cooldown>3.000000</Cooldown>
        <MaxRange>35.000000</MaxRange>
        <CostMana>50</CostMana>
        <CastTime>Instant</CastTime>
        <PowerStatCoefficient effect="0" action="0">0.000000E+000</PowerStatCoefficient>
      </AbilityRank>

0.000000E+00 = 0.

[TheGreatShabba]

It's usable on most encounters. In any situation where warriors are suffering, BnJ is suffering about the same, still putting it ahead in most cases.

This same argument is used by bad mages about 38/28. They don't see it as "viable" for most fights, generally because they are...bad.

I disagree. There's no gap closer, and a lot of the dps relies on BoJ spam to proc Jolt/BoD. Warriors benefit from instant casts, and can be used on the move so long as they stay in melee range.

[TheGreatShabba]

Uhh, ok? Same as 51ch builds dude. Disconnects suck for both, but we deal with it.

There's a big difference between casting in melee range and using instants in melee range.

Granted, in ID so far the fights have been designed in such a way that there's no "constant kiting" or frequent target switches that prohibit BnJ from being used in any of the encounters.

[Radak]

The ones missing coefficients (like Spiritual Conflagration missing the the absorb's coefficient) are due to the fact that those abilities are actually set up as multiple abilities internally. It's still on Engineering's list to try to figure out a way to include those too, as well as to figure out why the base damage is being reported incorrectly.


0.000000E+00 = 0.

Would you mind explaining how the attack power coefficients work for attacks that deal weapon damage plus something. Like strike of Judgment

      <AbilityRank>
        <Number>10</Number>
        <RequiredLevel>48</RequiredLevel>
        <AbilityId>209670535</AbilityId>
        <Description>Deals 70% weapon damage plus 114 to 117 Life damage.</Description>
        <IsPassive>False</IsPassive>
        <RequiresWeapon>Melee Weapon</RequiresWeapon>
        <MaxRange>3.000000</MaxRange>
        <CostMana>52</CostMana>
        <CastTime>Instant</CastTime>
        <PowerStatCoefficient effect="1" action="0">0.700000</PowerStatCoefficient>
      </AbilityRank>

I'm mainly interested in how the weapon damage calculated. Is it normalized in any way or is it exactly the damage the weapon tooltip shows (meaning slower weapons would deal more damage).

[mattya802]

I'm mainly interested in how the weapon damage calculated. Is it normalized in any way or is it exactly the damage the weapon tooltip shows (meaning slower weapons would deal more damage).

Pretty sure all 2H weapons are normalized to a speed of 3.8, so slower weapons are of no benefit.

[mattya802]

There's a big difference between casting in melee range and using instants in melee range.

Granted, in ID so far the fights have been designed in such a way that there's no "constant kiting" or frequent target switches that prohibit BnJ from being used in any of the encounters.

You also have 3 instant ranged attacks in your normal "rotation" and another instant no-CD attack you could use if disconnected...obviously at a DPS loss, but it's there as an option.

The fights that cause issues for BnJ will cause similar issues for Warriors is my only point. If there was some boss that was constantly moving all the time, then sure - BnJ would dip quite a bit.

[Jewels]

While I don't love the bolt n jolt spec, I do like that we have a (slightly more) complicated, high st spec that can be used in raids. Inq is fine for it's convenience and ease of use, as is druid. Perhaps I'm old fashioned for thinking that easy specs shouldn't put out the dps that more complicated rotations do.

With the changes made to 1.8, however, I would really like to see our aoe dps in a raid setting looked at. Watching people pull truly sick aoe that isn't dependent on one big cd, and with twice the st output is a little sad.

[aLittleBird]

Shaman and Druid are NOT valid DPS spec in 1.8. So you can stop talking like they are.

51 INQ is is accepted as a valid DPS only because it is ranged yet when you compare our range numbers to Rogues and Mages we are not even in the same ballpark let alone the same game.
s.

Are you making these statements with any factual evidence to support it? I am fine with it either way just am interested if you have data to say Druid is not valid since 1.8 because I have heard differently.

[Zinbik]

Is it normalized in any way

1-handers are normalized to a speed of 2.8.
2-handers are normalized to a speed of 3.8.
Ranged weapons are normalized to a speed of 2.6.