Class balance discussion.

[Shinkirou]

So, I'd like to talk about the current class balance..

I see a bunch of people complaining rogues are horribly OP with regards to pvp, low ranks being able to solo r50 warriors ect ect.

How? You're telling me rank 10s, who will be killed by an r50 warrior in 2/3 hits, are some how getting through the warrior's 10k hp with their 200dps before a warrior can press a button a few times?

The only class i see having too much damage is cleric, and that's not in general, it's just possible to have a build with a bunch of self heals, 12k hp, and still competent dps. In world pvp, you'll see these people taking on groups of 5 people, solo, and winning.

As far as classes having anything "OP", I see it as:

Warriors having too many gap-closers/cc, as with their damage, you need the option of getting out of their range, which is quite hard once they target you.

Clerics having the option of dps in healing/tanking type builds, as stated.

Mages having too much survivability.

Rogue's Riftstalker soul being too effective in PvP. Stacking the damage mitigation makes way too much of a difference, the loss of dps for stacking resist is not very high.

The only thing I see needing an increase/change is how a rogue's damage scales with stats, a rogue can gain over 100 dex at 50, with very little to show for it, damage scaling comes mostly from weapon dps. This also presents the problem with the riftstalker soul, since points in offensive souls isn't as effective due to low stat contribution. (My my rogue first hit level 50, he went from 400dex to 580-600dex before a weapon upgrade, about 200 dex only increased the damage of my skills by 30-50. The weapon upgrade which was sedationist - vigilante weapons, yielded about 120 more damage per skill. Since that weapon upgrade he's gained almost another 100 dex, with nothing really to show for damage increase.)

I expect I'll be told I'm wrong, but at least tell me how. No point telling me I'm wrong if you don't know what's right.

[Cygfa]

So, I'd like to talk about the current class balance..
Warriors having too many gap-closers/cc, as with their damage, you need the option of getting out of their range, which is quite hard once they target you.

Rogue's Riftstalker soul being too effective in PvP.

At least you got those two right

[Shinkirou]

At least you got those two right

Well, the mage survivability is very specific to the build...

But the cleric thing is more general.

[Cygfa]

Well, the mage survivability is very specific to the build...

But the cleric thing is more general.

You have to be specific as to which aspect of the game you're talking about: pvp or pve
I'm only talking about pvp (as I don't pve).

mage survivability is currently one of the lowest in game (chlorolock/chlorodom being arguably decent, but at the expense of a fair bit of damage). I don't play a high rank mage, but from what I see it's either decent damage glass cannon, or decent survival/utility with much lower damage.

Cleric high dps??? are you high? Go check the cleric forums if you need information. Any cleric hybrid build oustide of senticar is purely for survival reasons. Healing is about the only decent thing left for pvp clerics (with only 2 generally viable specs or variations thereof), otherwise we are glass cannons of inferior-to-mage quality.

ideas for better class balance:
toning down warrior dps or mobility, make LW like FB/VM
adjusting MM (probably by putting a cd on eradicate)
removing the + dmg bonus for squirreling (dom talent) or toning down swift control a bit
buffing MoA while toning down SH; completely reworking cleric melee trees
give purifier 'opportunity' type talent for instahealing procs (possibly to replace the ERejuv talent), so they're more viable for pvp, OR place serendipity lower in sent. Either give talents to lower the shield debuff on people, or increase shield strength. Make healer's haste, shields and all blessing spells non-purgeable. buff cascade; reduce HCov to 20% but make it a 45s cd.
improve chloro healing in pvp (not sure how, but it's subpar atm), possibly by some kind of 'vengeance' mechanic (ie dmg increases from dmg taken - like DMMA but for chloro)
Adjust all teleports to 20m (wtf is a 10m teleport, seriously?)

there's probably lots more but I gotta go back to doing work

[Sariina]

give purifier 'opportunity' type talent for instahealing procs (possibly to replace the ERejuv talent), so they're more viable for pvp, OR place serendipity lower in sent.

Oh, do I smell a great T2 PVP-PA talent . . . Instant heals on a target in PVP combat have a chance of lowering cast time of the next cast time healing spell to 0. At least that way it doesn't mess up Purifier to make it crazy OP in PVE.

[Cygfa]

Oh, do I smell a great T2 PVP-PA talent . . . Instant heals on a target in PVP combat have a chance of lowering cast time of the next cast time healing spell to 0. At least that way it doesn't mess up Purifier to make it crazy OP in PVE.

Can you imagine what this would do to pvp wardens? Too OP
we already have serendipity (which is amazing except against eradicate), but it's not available to a 51Puri.

I don't honestly think it would be THAT OP for pve if you replace the 30% healing proc instead of adding it on top. Purifiers hardly top any charts in pve anyway

edit: I suppose placing serendipity lower in sent would work as well, but once again wardens will troll other specs with it in pvp then, unless it's made to a flat 30%-45% cast time reduction (and HH is instead 1.5s flat reduction to next 5 casts).

[Mayi]

Pvp class balance isn't a big issue to me. I know players from each of the classes who do very well in pvp. The player makes more of a difference then class. Cleric doesn't seem strong in dps so might be a little weak but they're also the best pvp healers. As long as you aren't dying in less then 5 seconds player skill can come out and overcome any imbalances (and lets face it, things will never be perfect).

What's 'balanced' also depends on the context where the class is being used. What's great in a duel might suck in a warfront, and be terrible in conquest or vice versa. Just look at warriors for an example, or imagine trying to duel as a purifier cleric. That's why talking about class pvp balance never go well, warriors all point to conquest and others point to duels, people talk about different things and the thread gets stupid.

Pve is a more controlled environment so class balance issues are more relevant. Unlike pvp where what's best to do changes depending on the player you're against, you just sit there and hit buttons for the most part. No matter how you hit your buttons someone from X class will never do more dps then someone from Y class, even if Y messes up their rotation 10 times. Things like that irk me more then anything in pvp because in pvp I know I can overcome but in pve you cannot.

[Cygfa]

Pvp class balance isn't a big issue to me.

because you prefer pve

that's fine

I'd still like to get pvp fixed, because 'pve class balance isn't a big issue to me'

[Pett]

Mages having too much survivability.

Any credibility this post may have had crumbled right here....

Mage survivability is the lowest of any class, sure i can live a while in chloro dom but the chances of killing someone are pretty low. Chloro-lock is the tankiest build we have and if people learned to purge it wouldnt have anywhere near the survivability it has.

The most OP soul in this game atm is Riftstalker - it has been for a while. Sab is a little much but i think thats more down to gearing than anything else, the HK 4 piece is OP, im not so sure about the soul.

The RW/PB and LW combo is too much, its been discussed everywhere so no point going into it here.

Aside from that Clerics could maybe use a little tweaking but i dont think balance is too bad at present.

[mistmare]

Any credibility this post may have had crumbled right here....

Mage survivability is the lowest of any class, sure i can live a while in chloro dom but the chances of killing someone are pretty low. Chloro-lock is the tankiest build we have and if people learned to purge it wouldnt have anywhere near the survivability it has.

The most OP soul in this game atm is Riftstalker - it has been for a while. Sab is a little much but i think thats more down to gearing than anything else, the HK 4 piece is OP, im not so sure about the soul.

The RW/PB and LW combo is too much, its been discussed everywhere so no point going into it here.

Aside from that Clerics could maybe use a little tweaking but i dont think balance is too bad at present.

They threw you a bone with Conquest. I don't see mages playing it right, but a Pyro could clean up with the channel. You have the same 6s one the clerics do except it does more damage.

The class is fairly bad in pvp, from what I've seen. I purge + silence mages, and they go down like ragdolls. Maybe the ones I see just aren't that good though. I 've seen some good ones, mostly chloros.

I think the other 3 classes are balanced for the most part. At first I didn't, then I learned to actually play my class. In the beginning cleric seems OP and war UP, towards 50 it seems reversed. Before you figure out how their buffs work you think rogues are gods, then you remove the MM Vampiric Munitions buff. That ability is somewhat ridiculously OP, but it's easily removed.

Good VK's still obliterate me, but if I have a teammate focus them, they go down fast.

Some people play mages well, which leads me to believe it just might not be a popular choice, but IDK I don't see enough of them and the ones I see generally aren't very good, whereas a lot of the MM rogues and VK's are, but that just might be because the class is more popular, not that players as a whole are any better.

Purifier is a PVE soul, I don't think they should do anything with it. Play with a PVP spec instead. The shields don't count as favor, so why you'd play one even if they were viable is beyond me and they have glaring mana issues (when they can't consume drinks e.g. in PVE), but to each his own.

It's like complaining AOE dps like the Cabalist or Sabo aren't viable in PVE (outside a raid or something at least). They're not supposed to be, that's part of the fun. Glass canons all that.

[Pett]

They threw you a bone with Conquest. I don't see mages playing it right, but a Pyro could clean up with the channel. You have the same 6s one the clerics do except it does more damage.

The biggest problem mages have in conquest is range. Battle lines are drawn by the rogues spamming fan out and i pity the poor mage who steps forward because they instantly make themselves a target for everyone who is tab targetting. I run chloro/dom or 51 dom in conquest on the rare occasion i go, its too PvE for my tastes.

The class is fairly bad in pvp, from what I've seen. I purge + silence mages, and they go down like ragdolls. Maybe the ones I see just aren't that good though. I 've seen some good ones, mostly chloros.

Outside of break free we have 1 method of removing CC (in pyro). Silence cripples us and sometimes we just have to wait it out. I have found a way to make your purge pretty in-effective though ;)

I think the other 3 classes are balanced for the most part. At first I didn't, then I learned to actually play my class. In the beginning cleric seems OP and war UP, towards 50 it seems reversed. Before you figure out how their buffs work you think rogues are gods, then you remove the MM Vampiric Munitions buff. That ability is somewhat ridiculously OP, but it's easily removed.

VM isnt that bad, fell blades is far worse. The only rogues who will always give me problems are the NB/RS builds - in general mage purges are pretty bad. The major killer for me though is warriors with LW and RW, if a mage has no means to kite the chances are they are going down.

Some people play mages well, which leads me to believe it just might not be a popular choice, but IDK I don't see enough of them and the ones I see generally aren't very good, whereas a lot of the MM rogues and VK's are, but that just might be because the class is more popular, not that players as a whole are any better.

It's like complaining AOE dps like the Cabalist or Sabo aren't viable in PVE (outside a raid or something at least). They're not supposed to be, that's part of the fun. Glass canons all that.

A lot of warriors and rogues are using 3 macro button spam builds - unfortunately doing so they can still be fairly effective. A mage trying to use 3 macros would be toast. We also have the huge dis-advantage of not being able to cast on the move.

Yes some mages are terrible, some are average (including myself) and theres about half a dozen i can think of that i would call good, Effei and Fryday spring to mind. Mages are also probably the hardest class in rift to play in pvp - no offence to other players but mages are far more situational and far more reliant on skill selection, movement etc

[Lalothen]

The biggest problem mages have in conquest is range. Battle lines are drawn by the rogues spamming fan out and i pity the poor mage who steps forward because they instantly make themselves a target for everyone who is tab targetting. I run chloro/dom or 51 dom in conquest on the rare occasion i go, its too PvE for my tastes.

Yeah it's the same for Clerics. That's why I tend to like it when I'm in a raid with a couple of tanks who stay at the front to absorb all the tab-target damage. The only other alternative is to move out and flank the enemy zerg, but half the time you're putting yourself out of AoE heal range.

I've actually been playing around with an SC/Dom/Chloro build on my mage in Conquest, and I quite like it. Enough points in SC to get most of the damage boosts and survivability spells like Storm Guard & Ride the Wind, enough in Dom for Reflective Presence & talented Storm Shackle, and then the standard 13 Chloro for AoE spores. There's a lot of charge consumers in there though, and I'm not really sure if I would be better off using something more streamlined.

That said, having played around with Cab builds in Conquest A LOT on my main, I've found build bastardisation typically makes the play more interesting and gives me more abilities to survive/help my raid survive. I think my favourite has to be a Cabicar with 21 pts in Warden actually...

[Pett]

I've actually been playing around with an SC/Dom/Chloro build on my mage in Conquest, and I quite like it. Enough points in SC to get most of the damage boosts and survivability spells like Storm Guard & Ride the Wind, enough in Dom for Reflective Presence & talented Storm Shackle, and then the standard 13 Chloro for AoE spores. There's a lot of charge consumers in there though, and I'm not really sure if I would be better off using something more streamlined.

I tried my grind build in Conquest (18 chloro 38 SC 10 lock), was ok but i cant help being completely underwhelmed by SC damage in PvP. Cast times are one of the most effective ways of getting yourself dead too

I like 51 dom (with 15 chloro 0 archon) because if you can get into range and hit spores, Mass betrayal and TI it generally ends up being carnage. You still have splits with SV to protect them if you get stuck 1v1 and Pillaging stone is ok for single target attacks. I tend to use Storm shackle on people running back towards their raid.

Chloro dom is similar but i use it just to hassle healers as much as possible.

If i use a dps build its either 35/31 pyro/chloro or a 38 pyro 18 chloro 10 lock build. If im going into chloro i almost always go for 18 rather than 13, the hp boost is definately worth it along with flourish.

[Lalothen]

I tried my grind build in Conquest (18 chloro 38 SC 10 lock), was ok but i cant help being completely underwhelmed by SC damage in PvP. Cast times are one of the most effective ways of getting yourself dead too

Yeah, that's what I love about my 34/21/11 Cabicarden (or Wardalicar?), because your Tyranny still hits hard, you pick up some extra instant ST spells in Warden, and you can pump out a surprising amount of AoE healing with Healing Flood and a rippled Spray/Stream combo + reparation heals on top - no cast times whatsoever.

I like 51 dom (with 15 chloro 0 archon) because if you can get into range and hit spores, Mass betrayal and TI it generally ends up being carnage. You still have splits with SV to protect them if you get stuck 1v1 and Pillaging stone is ok for single target attacks. I tend to use Storm shackle on people running back towards their raid.

I haven't tried 51 Dom yet, so I'll have to set it up and give it a go. I've seen what Mass Betrayal can do to a raid - it's evil, and I like it!

[mistmare]

The biggest problem mages have in conquest is range. Battle lines are drawn by the rogues spamming fan out and i pity the poor mage who steps forward because they instantly make themselves a target for everyone who is tab targetting. I run chloro/dom or 51 dom in conquest on the rare occasion i go, its too PvE for my tastes.

I know, 51inq plays similar in that regards. You sneak around to the side of the zerg, preferably somewhere above them, throw the channel in the middle to disperse the group or snake around the back on all the healers and cloth. It does good damage in Conquest, but it's mostly to disperse them while your zerg kills them from the front. They run all over while you spam the AOE ground channel from up high. You can also use it to herd them into one area so your zerg can take them easier. You die a lot this way, but can generally do massive amounts of damage first and often turn the tide of a zergfest. Survivability isn't an issue in conquest. If you get focused, you die, no matter what the spec.

Or you stay in the middle of the zerg and use it to herd/keep pushing the other faction back by throwing it a little in front of your zerg. Also good on extractors to prevent sneak attacks or solo/2 man caps.. Free favor if you sneak up behind people on minibosses/archlich