Support Builds: Worth bringing to the party?

[Nightreaver]

Unless this changed in 1.9 it says Support.

Is there more than one version of this game?
I logged on to both Live and Test and both show Archon as Offensive
I then logged on to both Guardian and Defiant and again, both show Archon as Offensive.
Has been that way in my version since day one.

Originally Posted by Kervik
Depending on how points are spent role icons for a build can be incorrect (Chloro and Archon in particular)
This is another one that I know why it’s happening, but finding a good solution is problematic.

Can anyone give me an example of a build where the icon being displayed is the incorrect?
Or was he referring to the way that Dual Role Souls flag differently than Single role Souls?
If people want it standardized for all roles they could just make all Archon, Chloro and Justicar a single role.
But then Clerics would not be able to queue for Support and Archon would never flag as Support.

All of this is true, it is why Archon without points in a non-DPS soul shows up as DPS. But if you're trying to argue that Archon is considered primarily a DPS soul then I don't know what to say to that.

Not trying to argue anything.
I don't deny that about the only purpose for Archon is for Support in 20-man progressive raids.
Just pointing out that TRION both flags and defines Archon as DPS, not Support.
You can call it whatever you want.
And for those who define Support as a Buffer, would also point out that the only Mage Soul Trion actually flags and defines as Support is Dominator which offers very little in the way of raid buffs.

[TheGrinnz]

Is there more than one version of this game?
I logged on to both Live and Test and both show Archon as Offensive
I then logged on to both Guardian and Defiant and again, both show Archon as Offensive.
Has been that way in my version since day one.

Forgot to check in game last night, but here's the first example I could find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv4m5b7CgkA#t=53s

Can anyone give me an example of a build where the icon being displayed is the incorrect?
Or was he referring to the way that Dual Role Souls flag differently than Single role Souls?
If people want it standardized for all roles they could just make all Archon, Chloro and Justicar a single role.
But then Clerics would not be able to queue for Support and Archon would never flag as Support.

51 Chloro flagging as anything other than healing is a bug, regardless of how it "needs" that support component to queue as support. This has been established.

Here is a more directly relevant quote.

"Expected" in this case, would be support with 51 points in archon and heal with 51 points in chloro, correct?

Correct.

Not trying to argue anything.
I don't deny that about the only purpose for Archon is for Support in 20-man progressive raids.
Just pointing out that TRION both flags and defines Archon as DPS, not Support.
You can call it whatever you want.
And for those who define Support as a Buffer, would also point out that the only Mage Soul Trion actually flags and defines as Support is Dominator which offers very little in the way of raid buffs.

Bard.

I would argue that Dominator is marked as Support just because they didn't want to create yet another soul category just for it.

[Nightreaver]

The Video is from Beta which only makes it more confusing.
So at one point in Beta it was labeled as Support but then they changed it to Offensive before it went Live?
Why would they do that if it wasn't intended?

There is no flag displayed in the video and as I recall flags were introduced later in the game. My GUESS would be that when they decided to add flags that flags for each Soul were determined by the label in the tooltip for each Soul. The coder saw Archon labeled as "Offensive" so gave it a DPS flag. The question then is if it was not intended then why after a year and a half not correct it?

I guess another possibility is that in the case of Dual-Role Souls the flag is always determined by the Primary role and the Support role (that all Dual-Role souls have in common) is always considered to be the secondary role. But then what reason would there be to even make an Archon Dual-Role if its primary role is Support?

51 Chloro flagging as anything other than healing is a bug, regardless of how it "needs" that support component to queue as support. This has been established.

So the flagging seems to be working correctly. It's the Dual-Role concept that isn't working as intended.
And that won't change because Healers are needed for Support in Dungeons, not actual Support roles.

So why not just remove the Support slot in LFG queues so people are no longer confused into thinking that an actual Support Soul is needed for the Support slot. Or give it a label that actually defines the role that it is intended for. Call it "Healer Support" and require Souls that actually have Healing abilities to queue for it. Then you will no longer need Dual-Role Souls and the whole problem with flagging will go away.

Originally Posted by TheGrinnz
"Expected" in this case, would be support with 51 points in archon and heal with 51 points in chloro, correct?"
Originally Posted by Kervik
"Correct."

How can anyone say a 51 Archon should flag as Support when it is labeled as DPS and every point you put into Archon flags it as DPS? Even if they did away with the whole Dual-Role concept, all that would mean is that an Archon would never flag as Support.

In this case, the problem isn't with the Dual-Role classification but rather the initial label and Flag assigned to the Soul. If it truly is intended to be classified as a Support role then both the label and the flag assigned to the role need to be changed.

I would argue that Dominator is marked as Support just because they didn't want to create yet another soul category just for it.

Now if only we had a use for Dominators in PvE that didn't rely on gimmicks.

[TheGrinnz]

The Video is from Beta which only makes it more confusing.
So at one point in Beta it was labeled as Support but then they changed it to Offensive before it went Live?
Why would they do that if it wasn't intended?

There is no flag displayed in the video and as I recall flags were introduced later in the game. My GUESS would be that when they decided to add flags that flags for each Soul were determined by the label in the tooltip for each Soul. The coder saw Archon labeled as "Offensive" so gave it a DPS flag. The question then is if it was not intended then why after a year and a half not correct it?

I guess another possibility is that in the case of Dual-Role Souls the flag is always determined by the Primary role and the Support role (that all Dual-Role souls have in common) is always considered to be the secondary role. But then what reason would there be to even make an Archon Dual-Role if its primary role is Support?

Don't have an answer for these, but it sure isn't a dps soul.

So the flagging seems to be working correctly. It's the Dual-Role concept that isn't working as intended.
And that won't change because Healers are needed for Support in Dungeons, not actual Support roles.

No, the flagging is not working correctly, that is what Kervik stated in the quote and several mage bug lists. 51 Archon should have a Support flag no matter what, and 51 Chloro should have a heal flag no matter what. Right now if you make a build with 51 chloro and any points in Dominator or Archon then you get a support flag instead of a heal flag, because of the reasons you mentioned before.

Rather, it's the "dual role concept" that isn't applicable to flagging.

So why not just remove the Support slot in LFG queues so people are no longer confused into thinking that an actual Support Soul is needed for the Support slot. Or give it a label that actually defines the role that it is intended for. Call it "Healer Support" and require Souls that actually have Healing abilities to queue for it. Then you will no longer need Dual-Role Souls and the whole problem with flagging will go away.

No argument here, it's been a misnomer for ages. What you actually need in the 5th member of a dungeon run is someone who can provide additional healing if it is needed, anything else they can do is secondary. A Cleric build with only 14 points in Justicar and the rest in DPS does this better than Archon or Dominator ever will, and you can't queue support with that.

[Nightreaver]

Don't have an answer for these, but it sure isn't a dps soul.

I wouldn't think so either but then…
1) How difficult would the coding be to change the word "Offensive" to the word "Support" in the tooltip description of the class? You would think that could have been done when they changed the tooltips for all of the Souls if that was the intent.
2) How difficult would the coding be to change the flag that represents Archon from DPS to Support?
3) Why did they change Archon from a single role to a Dual role to include Support? Why not just make it as a single role Support like all other Support roles?

Rather, it's the "dual role concept" that isn't applicable to flagging.

Except that the issue goes beyond Dual role.
I think we can both agree that a Soul with 51 points allocated to it should never flag as anything other than the role associated with that Soul regardless of where the remaining points are spent.
A 51 Chloro with no other points spent flags as a Healer. Its flag designation only changes due to the complications involving its Dual Role status which we both agree is a problem.
A 51 Archon however with no other points spent flags as DPS. So if we follow the rule that a Soul with 51 points assigned to it should never change its flag status then an Archon should always flag as DPS.
To me the issue seems not with the dual role status but the flag itself that is assigned to Archon

No argument here, it's been a misnomer for ages. What you actually need in the 5th member of a dungeon run is someone who can provide additional healing if it is needed, anything else they can do is secondary.

Actually, having it given it more thought. I would actually love to see a place in 5 man groups where an Archon would be viable. Where the buffs scaled differently based on whether he was in a raid or group. Or an increase in DPS to make an Archon a viable option for that 5th slot. I do like the Archon soul and as long as I am going to reserve one of my 6 slots for that role I would love to get more use out of it.

A Cleric build with only 14 points in Justicar and the rest in DPS does this better than Archon or Dominator ever will, and you can't queue support with that.

I know I am going to come off sounding anal on this and this really isn't directed at you, but rather people who are starting out now or are leveling an alt, a Cleric with only 14 points in Justicar and the rest in DPS can queue as Support…just not at level 50. If you're leveling a Cleric you only need a third of your points in Justicar to queue as Support. So yes at level 50 (with 66 points) you need 22 points (one third) to queue, but less are needed at lower levels.

To my knowledge, the same holds true for all roles. You need at least one third of your total points assigned to a role in order to queue for that role.

[TheGrinnz]

Actually, having it given it more thought. I would actually love to see a place in 5 man groups where an Archon would be viable. Where the buffs scaled differently based on whether he was in a raid or group. Or an increase in DPS to make an Archon a viable option for that 5th slot. I do like the Archon soul and as long as I am going to reserve one of my 6 slots for that role I would love to get more use out of it.

I mentioned something like this in another thread once, the problem is you either make it overpowered with any larger group size, or you now require groupsize/5 number of archons to maximize dps (and each group standing in a neat stack). Neither of which are an improvement on the current situation.

I know I am going to come off sounding anal on this but just so people who are starting out now or are leveling an alt, a Cleric with only 14 points in Justicar and the rest in DPS can queue as Support…just not at level 50. If you're leveling a Cleric you only need a third of your points in Justicar to queue as Support. So yes at level 50 (with 66 points) you need 22 points (one third) to queue, but less are needed at lower levels.

To my knowledge, the same holds true for all roles. You need at least one third of your total points assigned to a role in order to queue for that role.

I thought about adding a disclaimer that I was talking about with 66 points allocated, as that's largely irrelevant to what we're discussing but, oh well ;)

[Nightreaver]

Isn't the amount of Exp and Loot gained different depending on whether you are part of a group or part of a raid?
Couldn't the same be done with buff scaling?
If you're in a group the buffs have "X" effect and affects all group members
If you're in a raid the buffs have "Y" effect and affects all raid members.

Or even better, have buffs scale based on the number of people within the raid or group.
Like how event Bosses health scale based on the number of players attacking it.

[TheGrinnz]

Isn't the amount of Exp and Loot gained different depending on whether you are part of a group or part of a raid?
Couldn't the same be done with buff scaling?
If you're in a group the buffs have "X" effect and affects all group members
If you're in a raid the buffs have "Y" effect and affects all raid members.

Or even better, have buffs scale based on the number of people within the raid or group.
Like how event Bosses health scale based on the number of players attacking it.

It would just lead to minmaxing of bringing only 14 people because it maximizes the raid buffs, etc. Not a road I want to go down.

[Proin Drakenzol]

FWIW:

I just checked Archon on my mage. It does indeed list Archon as a Damage Soul and 51 points w/ 0 assigned elsewhere gives you a sword icon.

However the very first line of the description begins "The Archon is a support specialist..." and not even the most generously minded would consider an Archon's solo damage output to be "DPS worthy."

[TheGrinnz]

FWIW:

I just checked Archon on my mage. It does indeed list Archon as a Damage Soul and 51 points w/ 0 assigned elsewhere gives you a sword icon.

However the very first line of the description begins "The Archon is a support specialist..." and not even the most generously minded would consider an Archon's solo damage output to be "DPS worthy."

One possible reason they changed it is so people would stop bringing Archon as the "support" spot in dungeons... see above posts on that subject.

[Solisto]

One possible reason they changed it is so people would stop bringing Archon as the "support" spot in dungeons... see above posts on that subject.

I would rather have archon as the support slot in a dungeon instead of a dps slot.

On a side note, I haven't found it, but is there any way to get that little support flag in your nameplate as a cleric? AFAIK, like the Dev said, support que in a dungeon =/= support as defined by the role.

[Bluelightt]

I would rather have archon as the support slot in a dungeon instead of a dps slot.

And just why would that be?

[Solisto]

And just why would that be?

Because I like dps to be able to do dps. If you have a bard in the support slot an archon in the dps slot, you're 1 other dps (assuming it is a real dps spec) would be doing 50% of the total damage in the 5 man.

[TheGrinnz]

Because I like dps to be able to do dps. If you have a bard in the support slot an archon in the dps slot, you're 1 other dps (assuming it is a real dps spec) would be doing 50% of the total damage in the 5 man.

Not really sure what this scenario has to do with anything...

[Bluelightt]

Because I like dps to be able to do dps. If you have a bard in the support slot an archon in the dps slot, you're 1 other dps (assuming it is a real dps spec) would be doing 50% of the total damage in the 5 man.

Are you speaking a different language or something that i'm just not getting? You literally just said you would rather have an archon than a DPS in the support slot and then replied with this that I quoted. This makes no sense to me. Explain it to me like you would a 2nd grader because i'm clearly slow.