Why the hell is there a fetus in a jar in Meridian

[Anuhart]

Another little bit to throw to your last post Morvick.

If you res in the Gloamwood Pines res structure. The NPC's say.. <2 secs while I go suicide to get the quote>

Bahh, note to self - when aiming to suicide via fall dmg, don't take a Dwarf.

I could only get them to say "Welcome Back". Switched to a Matho after ~10 deaths but still couldn't get the quote. Finally though...

Atkin Emori: Look! There goes another one!
Ydeni Oldk: I hear that they were once mortal, but now the gods have chosen them to protect us.


Edit, the NPC's patrol, no wonder I couldn't get the quote.

[Anuhart]

Edit 2. Lawl. You only need to run in and out of the circle when they are near it, whether you died or not.

[GothWulfe]

The "Savior" Ascended is only in comparison to his/her own faction. A means to make the player unique (not "just another soldier"). The Defiant treat their player character similarly, as this individual is the "only" one who has actually seen Terminus.

The only tripping point for me, in the larger game setting as well as for this topic, is that Rift has two tones when dealing with "The Ascended". Obviously parts of the game recognize that there are hundreds of heroes on Telara all fighting to save it, such as the element of Guilds, or PvP quests, etc. The NPCs there all speak to you in relation to "your fellow Ascended".
* However there are plenty of parts where you're treated as if you're the only person to ever step foot in Sanctum from either the Past or the Present. For one, nearly every Zone Quest adopts this viewpoint, but also the Chronicle of Attunement is a prime example as well.

So it leaves me confused at times trying to figure out if the game recognizes you singularly as "The Ascended" or plurally as "The Ascended [Army]". That's one reason why a Sliver of Terminus helps to make so much sense, as this one timeline trapped in the future can repeat forever and send back an appropriately-infinite number of special-snowflake Defiant to account for the flood of players. The Guardian Past is relatively more restrictive but the same general theories can probably be applied.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on "The Ascended" singular and "The Ascended" plural.

Knowing I'm not the only one, I've always just made the decision to take it in the plural instead of the singular if I can...though you're right, there are a few quests where you just kind to have to set aside any type of immersion because they obviously could only be done once. Usually with those, I just do them and completely leave it out of my character history...

As to your other point, whether you go with my "multiple Terminii" theory, or your "timeloop" one, it does explain why there are always more Defiants popping up, but I don't see the Guardian history being any more restrictive....after all, no one knows how many the Vigil actually ascended. The fact that there are more popping in all the time instead of them all showing up at once only means that Thonic is doing as any knowledgeable commander would do, holding part of the Vigil's forces in reserve and sending them out as needed. "Oh, seems we didn't send quite enough back yet....send out another mage and two more clerics...and throw in a warrior for good measure."

[Anuhart]

"Oh, seems we didn't send quite enough back yet....send out another mage and two more clerics...and throw in a warrior for good measure."

Wait 'till next patch for rogues?

[GothWulfe]

Wait 'till next patch for rogues?

Rogues already get enough love....so yep, they have to wait to come back

[GothWulfe]

This is going back to a way earlier point, but I finally ran across the last source I was looking for to show that in the "Terminus timeline" the Guardians had ascended.

In the Defiant opening cinematic here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHJ0CeF7HoQ Asha says "We couldn't stop them. Without Ascended we just weren't strong enough....I wasn't strong enough."

While not saying it outright, it heavily implies that Asha was the only Defiant Ascended against the Ascended of the Guardians.

[Morvick]

While not saying it outright, it heavily implies that Asha was the only Defiant Ascended against the Ascended of the Guardians.

It's mentioned a few times that Asha isn't truly Ascended like the Player Character is. She only owns her soul, and might not resurrect if killed. For the intensive purposes that I understand, she's to be considered a very powerful mortal. With awesome sourcestone tattoos.


"The fact that there are more popping in all the time instead of them all showing up at once only means that Thonic is doing as any knowledgeable commander would do, holding part of the Vigil's forces in reserve and sending them out as needed."
To me, this represents our entire discussion and the more-general dilemma with all MMOs with static storylines: Prepare to fast-forward!
Sometimes, satire says it best. :]

[Mythue]

[QUOTE=GothWulfe;3632087]This is going back to a way earlier point, but I finally ran across the last source I was looking for to show that in the "Terminus timeline" the Guardians had ascended.

In the Defiant opening cinematic here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHJ0CeF7HoQ

GothWulfe, in finding this cinematic, did you come across any videos that show the montage of what the Guardian Ascended are shown after shattering the Shade of Regulos? and the montage of what the Defiant are shown when they travel through the Failsafe? I have been doing little searches for these, but cannot find them as yet.

[Morvick]

Guardians

Defiants

[Mythue]

thank you Morvick

do you think these good entries for a beginning of a Lore Entry under Prophecies? as well as the Prophecy of the Ascended and any other prophecies that have been come across, like the Gilded one, and the Lantern Hook one, which can be added by ones who come across them?

[Mythue]

[QUOTE=Terram;3628524]Riddle me this: if this "special" Ascended didn't exist in Terminus, how did Aedraxis die.

I get a feeling of Deja Vu, for as a guardian you are first ascended from this battle of Aedraxis, and then as this Ascended, you must repeat this battle, this time shattering the body of the Shade of Regulos with the Vigil's hammer.

Is it possible that at the first battle, Aedraxis himself fell, and then returned as a Shade of Regulos so the battle needed to be repeated again to shatter this body.

[GothWulfe]

It's mentioned a few times that Asha isn't truly Ascended like the Player Character is. She only owns her soul, and might not resurrect if killed. For the intensive purposes that I understand, she's to be considered a very powerful mortal. With awesome sourcestone tattoos.

I've ran across a couple places though that refer to her as the first Defiant Ascended....I just wish I could remember where I saw it other then the wiki. However, whether she is or not is really a moot point. If the Guardians hadn't had Ascended at the time, she wouldn't have said "without Ascended, we weren't stong enough...", thats the main thing that leads me to believe that they did...because if they weren't there, why even mention it?

[Morvick]

thank you Morvick

do you think these good entries for a beginning of a Lore Entry under Prophecies? as well as the Prophecy of the Ascended and any other prophecies that have been come across, like the Gilded one, and the Lantern Hook one, which can be added by ones who come across them?

Having them explained in text is the best way, as some readers may not be aware of their connection or importance.

GothWulfe; again, that goes back to "The One Ascended" versus "The Ascended Army". In the Terminus future, it's my belief that the Player Character has never been returned to Telara. Rather, the Guardian Ascended that steamroll Meridian are those who were never destroyed in the blast that created the Eye of Regulos (ergo, those like Cyril, Tam Daggerborne, Shyla, Poor Tom, etc). Neither factions' player characters have had a chance to change history. The Guardian faction is partly to blame for Terminus, just like the Defiant faction is partly to blame for the Shade; but in neither case have player characters from those factions actually done the deed or had a hand in the destruction.

Because if the Player Character had been there, then what's the point of a Guardian even trying to play the game? Their destiny would be laid out in stone thanks to such a Defiant opening ("No matter how you do this or play, you WILL be responsible for the end of the world. Clearly Defiant are the only guys worth playing to have an impact in this game. Enjoy your fake second faction, jerk cultists.")

The axiom logic is, "The player character's choices are pivotal in preventing horrible catastrophe, so where horrible catastrophe occurs, the player character probably wasn't present." This goes for both Guardians and Defiant: the only special notifier is that the Defiant are the ones [with the starting zone] in the future, not the Guardians.

[GothWulfe]

I see it completely different. The Guardian player characters were present in the "Terminus timeline" however, because there were no Defiant Ascended, they made completely different choices...some probably good, but ultimately one really bad one....to follow orders blindly. Look at it this way, you were the only ones brought back by the Vigil, the heretics have no power that can match yours, so when you are told to wipe out the heretics then take care of the dragons, well, it seems like a no-brainer, after all, it makes sense to take out the weaker enemy before dealing with the more powerful one. Ultimately, this bit of zealotry <I've been told that there are parts of the Guardian leadership that make Tomás de Torquemada look like a big fluffy kitten> turns out to be a VERY bad idea, but by then it's too late. Then, the Defiant send back their Ascended and BAM....the "reset button" gets hit....all those really bad choices and orders that the Guardian leadership made are now moot, because they never happened, the leaders, not to mention Guardian Ascended, being forced to make completely different ones.

Instead of invalidating Guardians completely, this actually simply gives them a second chance. After all, you know that by now that Shyla and friends have learned what happened at Terminus...and that it's not something they want to happen any more then the Defiant do. Hells, for that matter, if you subscribe to the theory that the Defiants were manipulated by the Vigil into creating Ascended, then the outcome is one of two things. "All is as the Vigil desires." or "The Vigil has given us the greatest gift they ever have...a second chance to save the world." Either way you look at it, there isn't anything that invalidates the Guardians.

[Morvick]

Instead of invalidating Guardians completely, this actually simply gives them a second chance. After all, you know that by now that Shyla and friends have learned what happened at Terminus...and that it's not something they want to happen any more then the Defiant do. Hells, for that matter, if you subscribe to the theory that the Defiants were manipulated by the Vigil into creating Ascended, then the outcome is one of two things. "All is as the Vigil desires." or "The Vigil has given us the greatest gift they ever have...a second chance to save the world." Either way you look at it, there isn't anything that invalidates the Guardians.

It would invalidate them in the sense that they only get their second chance thanks to a Defiant action, not their own or a combination. Once the storyline gets under way, I have no issue with one faction's decisions influencing the choices available to the other. But when you'd hit a new player with that level of favoritism so early on, it can easily lead to the belief that "Wow, the Guardians really did absolutely nothing, and would do absolutely nothing, without the Defiant. Yet conversely, even if the Guardians were never here, the Defiant would still save the world. Guess that decides which faction I'm joining."

Both factions must be either equally capable, or equally incapable, of saving the world on their own.
If that's not the case, then the Lore team's done gone f*cked up pretty big in setting up such an imbalance of preference.