Black and White

[Rykoth]

So, ironically this idea came from a stupid argument in a chat channel about lore.

Ascended vs. Defiant is obviously not about good vs. evil, since both are capable of both good and evil. But here's the question.

Does EVERY Ascended (whether lorewise/RPwise) have to be a fanatic? And if they aren't does that make them a traitor to their people?

I look at it from this way: We've got two factions, but then again, a common enemy. Would the Guardians really have a care if a lone Mathosian befriended an Eth? Would they really go after Common Joe or even Ascended Joe for working with that same Eth to close a RIFT and have a drink after? Would the Unseen really give two craps if some lone Eth, was sharing map information about rift locations with a high elf somewhere?

The way I look at it, culture does not automatically equal affiliation despite game mechanics, especially if you decide to roleplay a non ascended, and even if you play an ascended. (Especially on the Defiant Side: whose to say the Bahmi they resurrected isn't one of the Storm's Fury IPP Bahmi who don't want to take a side?) It's kind of like separating the individuals from the country or even the citizens from the government. Hell, while this might be a fantasy of so many different types, just using the olde world mentality if anything, I'd think foes would be MORE willing to chatter and drink together when they don't have the pressing business of slaughtering one another.

Anyway, just a thought. Is it truly a black and white extreme or is there room for shades of grey?

Note: I do not mean "tea time in AG" but I mean in general.

[Morvick]

Just to talk about your aside for a second, the "tea time in AG" usually turns to the Defiant insulting the Guardians, who have been demanding them to leave the whole time because they knew it'd turn out like that. WTB more NPC Guards for Argent Glade. =[

Anyway, there are a few organizations within the Guardians that even support your notions here. The Tribunal acts as the legislative branch of the Guardian infrastructure (the Harmonious Crusade is the judicial, and Cyril & Co. are the executive). This Tribunal, seen in action during the Life Saga quests and Water Saga quests, repeatedly emphasize the more calm nature of the Guardians.

These three represent a perfect antithesis to the foaming-at-mouth Brother Jebiah, whose Inquisition is really rather shameful. The Tribune reminds the Ascended Player that a Crusade is the last option, one taken only when foes force the Guardians' hands through rampant sacrilege or violence. They would much rather see the enemies of the Guardians turned into friends, or at the very least, neutral parties. They're even willing to absolve the Fae Court if Greenscale can be killed and his corruption stopped.

To be sure, all Town Guards are zealots -- Defiant and Guardian alike. They assume hostile intent at every turn, and attack the player with that reasoning. But by and large, many of the Guardians "out on the front" will overlook a nearby Defiant if they're not doing anything that directly opposes the Guardian faction's current objective. That's a step towards sharing a beer, though maybe not as strong of one as you might be looking for.

My own character takes the Tribune's stance, he being a Cleric and all.

[Terram]

Firstly, Guardian. Ascended is a term used to refer to the quasi-immortal super-soldiers with 10 souls in one body.

Secondly, yes and no. Not every Guardian is as gung-ho about it as Brother Jebiah. But on the other hand, there's only so far you can go before the Faceless Man shows up behind you and snaps your damn neck.

Dude's metal like that.

[SindriMyr21]

You may have seen my character, Valerin, at the steps to the tavern in AG in the new Guardian armor as a town guard to keep Defiant characters out. He will, however, accept their help during invasions. But what really irks me is when I give a Defiant character a choice to leave or fight, most Defiant RPers blow it off and continue what they are doing. (God-modding and lore breaking in my opinion) Luckily I've had a couple of lower level Defiant characters take the option to leave/fight, so it's not that terrible. If you were here in-game about 4-5 months ago, most of the Guardian RPers were Pro-sympathetic to having Defiants roam freely in AG and their were quite a few forums about it.

Personally, I find it more natural to speak to and hang out with Defiants in the more neutral areas of Telara: Fortune's Shore, Chancel of Labors, Zareph's Return, etc.

So, the conflict here is faction vs faction vs the Planes. There are some opportunities where the Guardians will put aside their hate for the Defiants and join forces (River of Souls event). Just to let people know, this is NOT a "Cold War" between the two factions, blood has been shed on the battlefield but the Planar invasions take priority. If you want to be friends with an Eth, go ahead, just don't let me see him/her in AG or they'll get a blade in their gut.

The leadership of the Guardians (Cyril, etc.) seems more black and white, and PCs can chose their view points otherwise.

(Just to add in, if anyone is interested in joining a Argent Glade Militia whisper Valerin. It's not a guild, it's more of a coalition between guilds to defend Argent Glade/Silverwood. We defend the town from invasions and Defiant infiltrators and assist younger ascended in their training.)

[Rykoth]

I wasn't necessarily just pointing out faction but culture/race as well.

I think it's fair to assume not every Eth supports the Defiants. Not every Bahmi put their lot in with their leader in Meridian - hell there's even lore on that for IPP.

What to do in a situation where someone is not exactly RPing as a Defiant? Do you treat them like one? Do game mechanics win in that situation?

(personally, I'd love to see a third neutral faction, since there's clearly anti-war NPCs that just care about the rifts being closed)

[Antisthenes]

I wasn't necessarily just pointing out faction but culture/race as well.

I think it's fair to assume not every Eth supports the Defiants. Not every Bahmi put their lot in with their leader in Meridian - hell there's even lore on that for IPP.

What to do in a situation where someone is not exactly RPing as a Defiant? Do you treat them like one? Do game mechanics win in that situation?

(personally, I'd love to see a third neutral faction, since there's clearly anti-war NPCs that just care about the rifts being closed)

I think this post underlines what you're arguing really well. I could be way off base, but I just read it as the subtext of the entire thread.

You're trying to RP a "grey area" character. That's cool, whatever. The problem is that you're trying to force the lore of the game world into the same kind of "shades of grey". As organisations, the Guardians and Defiants do not like each other, they are at war. The Tribunal has, at best, kept the war from becoming just as full-blown as the war with the planes and kept the world from tearing itself apart.

A character who doesn't properly fit in in a black and white world has compelling motivation to think the things they do and be the person they are. A character who lives and breathes moral relativism in a world of shades of grey is just one more nitwit in a vast sea of idiots without anyone of sufficiently strong convictions to unite them.

I'm going to say something that is generally more absolute than anything I say (even if they're not read that way).

There are rules to writing and creating compelling writing, to throw those rules out the window because you want to be a special snowflake in a special snowflake world is bad writing.

[Morvick]

A character who doesn't properly fit in in a black and white world has compelling motivation to think the things they do and be the person they are. A character who lives and breathes moral relativism in a world of shades of grey is just one more nitwit in a vast sea of idiots without anyone of sufficiently strong convictions to unite them.

TL;DR :
"You've got enemies? Good. That means you stood for something." -Eminem

[Antisthenes]

TL;DR :
"You've got enemies? Good. That means you stood for something." -Eminem

I feel like I should be offended on a nearly existential level that Eminem, a poseur rapper, is better at making brilliant statements about human nature with an economy of words than I am.

[Morvick]

I feel like I should be offended on a nearly existential level that Eminem, a poseur rapper, is better at making brilliant statements about human nature with an economy of words than I am.

I know right? My lifelong dedication to a thesaurus, and this guy just drops sage wisdom like it's no big deal. (._.)

Anyway, that's the angle I look at our Defiant and Guardian characters from. We're not being asked to create "grey" personalities, at least not yet. The Neutral Factions take care of that, and look, we can't play as a neutral faction. We're each right in our own heads, and the enemy is always the reason we can't have nice things.
Our actions may be "grey", but each faction's thoughts certainly aren't.

[Mythue]

I see a lot of grey areas on both sides

Grey areas do not mean pure neutral to me though, to be this way,I feel you could not exist. Grey areas to me feel that they are up to being re-defined.

Like in this prophecy, and in these words

Neither alive nor dead;
Neither virtuous nor wicked;

the grey area being what is an ascended.


The Prohecy of the Ascended (Book)
'The Prophecy of the Ascended'
The Prophecy of the Ascended were the last words spoken by the Sentinel Niyol Cliffswind as he lay dying after the events of the Blood Storm 1500 years ago. Since that time, it has been transcribed again and again as a symbol of hope for the people of Telara, bringing light to their hearts, even on the darkest of days. May all gods bless and protect our kingdom, now and always.


The Prophecy of the Ascended


There will come a time when the Ward is fully sundered;
In that dark hour, even the gods will weep,
And from the ashes of a fallen kingdom, the Ascended will rise.
This being will be neither mortal nor god;
Neither alive nor dead;
Neither virtuous nor wicked;
The Ascended will be steadfast and mighty,
And henceforth those who serve the dragons,
Will know only fear and death.

[Arian]

TL;DR :
"You've got enemies? Good. That means you stood for something." -Eminem

Winston Churchill said it first : "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

unless he was quoting someone else too

[Mythue]

and...

any enemies you might think you have are within :)

not sure who said this first though...

[Morvick]

Winston Churchill said it first : "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

unless he was quoting someone else too

Whew! Thank you. Now I can quote someone I respect more, lol.

Mythue, that sounds almost Buddhist.

[Antisthenes]

Winston Churchill said it first : "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

unless he was quoting someone else too

I feel only slightly better quoting an incomprehensible drunkard.

[Morvick]

I feel only slightly better quoting an incomprehensible drunkard.

But he was a British incomprehensible drunkard, so at least whatever he said had the hint of a snappy accent.

I think we all just need to admit that the only reasoning for the creation of a hostile disagreement between Guardian and Defiant factions is because of the structure of this game's PvP system. Sigh.