Normalization = The end of PvP: A Rant

[Misun]

yesssss. though spvp seems to indicate the opness of rogues... sorry 'thieves' much as I suspected :P

few more days! I'm not gonna get to finish my r50 set hahaha but idc

I made a thief the last beta I played and I loved it.

[TedO]

As it stands now, Normalization can't work because that removes the only real incentive to PvP for most people. What is really required are things like competition or gear. Without one of those two things, you will lose a majority of the players.

Take games like League of Legends and Starcraft as examples. Both games have no incentive for in game things (no gear, trophies, skins, etc), but both game are the leading PvP games on the PC because of how competitive those games are.

So what needs to happen (since they are taking out the gear grind) is Trion has to create some kind of competition. Be it Arena, Rated Battlegrounds (Solo and Pre-made variants), or Tournaments (Guildwars and Guildwars 2 do this) where people can actually compete and see progress (up or down in rank, throw in some other things for being a higher rank)

So I support Normalization as long as there is some other kind of incentive added.

#1 the majority of PvP minded people are already gone.....been leaving for over a year.....going from 9 PvP servers to 3 to essentially one in the last year...that alone wasn't indicative enough apparently

#2 gear progression can't be totally taken away from the game this late in the game....what is left, or is now presently the "PvP" population feel that its very much an imperative, which actually I can't say that I totally disagree with some form of gear rewards in order to be viable in an open world environ, but then the devs have said a hundred times it won't be eliminated, only to go ignored.....over and over

#3 what was left of the majorative PvP only minded people seem to hope that our messiah has arrived in GW2, which also seems to have brought on the whole conversation of normalizing.

Its far to late to fix what has been so wrongly executed over the last year to its current form of PvP you see this day....I personally watched it devolve to its current state, all the while people had been saying it was broken to go largely ignored.

After The Conquest fiasco, I failed to see any further reason to justify my subscription , as yet another failure to improve PvP had gone by the wayside and to watch many use an exploit for 5 days, while the devs did nothing, so while they played the violin as the city burned, those that had the sense to leave did so....almost in a mass exodus to the point you are now left with 1 PvP server on the North American cluster.....One from Nine....pardon me if I see an issue with this...but I do.....

So yes....many raiders will say "look at those whinny assed PvPers"...well fortunately the majority are no longer here, and barring a complete failure on an unsaid forthcoming game, you are destined to lose a few more........

In short, something should had been done a long time ago, before its current state ended up to where you see it today.

[CowardWarrior]

#1 the majority of PvP minded people are already gone.....been leaving for over a year.....going from 9 PvP servers to 3 to essentially one in the last year...that alone wasn't indicative enough apparently

#2 gear progression can't be totally taken away from the game this late in the game....what is left, or is now presently the "PvP" population feel that its very much an imperative, which actually I can't say that I totally disagree with some form of gear rewards in order to be viable in an open world environ, but then the devs have said a hundred times it won't be eliminated, only to go ignored.....over and over

#3 what was left of the majorative PvP only minded people seem to hope that our messiah has arrived in GW2, which also seems to have brought on the whole conversation of normalizing.

Its far to late to fix what has been so wrongly executed over the last year to its current form of PvP you see this day....I personally watched it devolve to its current state, all the while people had been saying it was broken to go largely ignored.

After The Conquest fiasco, I failed to see any further reason to justify my subscription , as yet another failure to improve PvP had gone by the wayside and to watch many use an exploit for 5 days, while the devs did nothing, so while they played the violin as the city burned, those that had the sense to leave did so....almost in a mass exodus to the point you are now left with 1 PvP server on the North American cluster.....One from Nine....pardon me if I see an issue with this...but I do.....

So yes....many raiders will say "look at those whinny assed PvPers"...well fortunately the majority are no longer here, and barring a complete failure on an unsaid forthcoming game, you are destined to lose a few more........

In short, something should had been done a long time ago, before its current state ended up to where you see it today.

Yeah it's dam too late...
Let say we all here waited for like 11 months to have something good in pvp content, what we have now is Conquest - a stinky dumb yard.

Before Conquest released, it was fun. Our guild and I usually went out, did zone event and pvp at the same time. So I really expected Conquest more of a doing-together-as-a-guild thingy. Indeed it was for a short period. Then it got stupid and no one want to do it anymore unless they still need some CQ marks. I thought Conquest would become the thing to keep us PvP Guilds busy while PvE Guilds doing raidings. Just sad!

The more I pvp in Rift, the more I feel like playing soccer in the US, the sport that no one give a damn about. Should have played Football or Basketball at least.

So dear Rift, it was fun with you for a while, now I guess we are breaking up! GG

[Cygfa]

I made a thief the last beta I played and I loved it.

theyre OP as **** in spvp, but not all that great in wvw and kinda squishy in pve. at least thats what im finding.

I love how you get A FULL SET OF PVP GEAR WITH SIMILAR STATS TO EVERYONE ELSE when you join the spvp lobby. gee, what an obnoxious, outlandish idea, to put people on level playing fields. that way they can actually test their specs properly against each other. blasphemy!

[Meina]

Thanks for going through all that! I appreciate it.

The only reason I suggested arenas, is that 1v1 or 2v2 is where normalization makes sense. In warfronts or CQ, there is little skill in zerg v zerg. And certainly no coordination, unless its a premade. Given the same skill level and normalized gear among all players in a warfront, the balanced team with healers, ranged and melee dps, etc is going to win against the team with 9 warriors and a dps mage.

Even in the event of normalized gear, skill, and team makeup, the team all together on a voice server is going to do better than the unorganized pug.

I see how gear normalization is an attempt to even the playing field, but it seems like such a drastic and inefficient means of doing so, outside of an arena.

Trion isn't claiming that normalization will make everything even. It's an attempt to make the introduction to PvP less traumatic, which will hopefully entice more players to PvP. If we can get enough new blood into WF's, then they can maybe start working on a system that will sort out team makeup, which they currently really can't do without creating stupidly long queue times.

Hopefully it will prompt people to let go of the farmer mentality (de-emphasizing the gear de-emphasizes the need to farm favor) that pervades PvP and get them to focus more on playing the game as it should be played. It wold also remove the incentive to bot and AFK. These, to me, would be the biggest gains associated with gear normalization.

[Neo Omni]

I dont hink PvP was ever about gear. It was about ability and the skill to use those abilities.

Balanced PvP will always have close ending scores. 490/500 for example.

Unbalanced PvP will have scores like 20 to 500 which is what is currently going on in Rift.

There are two options here:

-que players based on gear..which may result in incredibly long queues.

Or

-even players out before the start via normalization.

I wouldnt be opposed to having both systems implemented.

Whatever the case, PvP as it stands bow is terrible and must change somehow.

[Meina]

One thing I find very funny in these treads are the people who are all...

"What! You're normalizing my gear!! I won't have any pat of it! I QUIT!! I'm going to go play that new game (which has normalized gear)."

Am I the only one that sees the irony in this?

[Misun]

One thing I find very funny in these treads are the people who are all...

"What! You're normalizing my gear!! I won't have any pat of it! I QUIT!! I'm going to go play that new game (which has normalized gear)."

Am I the only one that sees the irony in this?

I see the irony...and the really funny part is the people who used their gear as a crutch will never make it there...and the devs don't listen to whining.

[Meina]

Holy CRAP!! Look at all those typos.

I must be tired...

I see the irony...and the really funny part is the people who used their gear as a crutch will never make it there...and the devs don't listen to whining.

I can't help but chuckle when I read some of these posts.

Anywho, let's not bash them too hard. Don't want to get the thread closed for not being constructive.

[TedO]

First, I’d like to thank everyone that came out to PTS to take part in the PvP normalization tests. I’d especially like to call out a few individuals that hotly debated the subject on the forums and also took part in the tests on PTS, providing invaluable feedback: Khelendross, Hannonhellbringer, Tyaus, Bctrainers, Zaros, Synovia, and Undrsiege.

Sometimes, we try out crazy things on the PTS. Sometimes those changes are strange, exciting, or even frightening. Being able to run these tests on PTS and having real turnout helps us more than we can describe. Every time we put something out there we know it will create debate and discussion, and we thank you for being a part of both the discussions and the testing itself.

With this particular test, we had originally intended to try it out on the live servers to gather data for a week.

However, the PTS test provided enough data on its own for us to determine that this course of action is not a positive direction for Rift PvP, and that there is no need to extend this test onto the live servers.

We still have goals to lower the barrier to entry into PvP, to make the overall experience more positive for newcomers, and to generally improve our PVP for all who participate. We will continue to work towards those goals as we move into the future.

Thank you everyone for your time and feedback!

Daglar
Lead Game Designer: Rift

I believe people can rest easier on the whole discussion, although I may rant at times...you can never say they aren't prompt with direct responses when it comes to Trion, regardless of any outcome

[Meina]

I believe people can rest easier on the whole discussion, although I may rant at times...you can never say they aren't prompt with direct responses when it comes to Trion, regardless of any outcome

I bet some people are feeling pretty foolish right about now.



Especially that guy who unsubbed and deleted Rift off his computer.

[amaz0nsmash]

I see people want to argue that some how PVP'ers are upset bc they need their gear or else they're terribad. If you really believe that you're more childish than anything else. Making a generalized negative statement is usually to avoid looking at the issue for both sides equally. All I do is PVP, and I'm not worried I'm going to lose, I'm in the top heals/dps on every game I play. My issue is the hard work I put in to get that gear. I feel like now that ANY work I put into this game, no matter how long and how arduous the task was, anything I put into this game can be erased to make it "easier". It's like giving out trophies for losers and participators. I guess some people like that. I for one am attracted to game complexity. I liked Rift PVP because it was hard and not everyone could do it. It made it special. I felt like quest/raids/Instant Adventure/rifts/anything else in the game was there for an "easy" option against NPCs when one either was not good at PVP or just didn't like it at all. Just remember, when you rant about how only "PVP'ers" are going to complain about he change in PVP just remember that OF COURSE PVP'ers are going to be mad about a horrible change in PVP, they are called PVP'ers bc they like PVP, obviously more than those not called so, and obviously the ones who care about it more.

[Meina]

I see people want to argue that some how PVP'ers are upset bc they need their gear or else they're terribad. If you really believe that you're more childish than anything else. Making a generalized negative statement is usually to avoid looking at the issue for both sides equally. All I do is PVP, and I'm not worried I'm going to lose, I'm in the top heals/dps on every game I play. My issue is the hard work I put in to get that gear. I feel like now that ANY work I put into this game, no matter how long and how arduous the task was, anything I put into this game can be erased to make it "easier". It's like giving out trophies for losers and participators. I guess some people like that. I for one am attracted to game complexity. I liked Rift PVP because it was hard and not everyone could do it. It made it special. I felt like quest/raids/Instant Adventure/rifts/anything else in the game was there for an "easy" option against NPCs when one either was not good at PVP or just didn't like it at all. Just remember, when you rant about how only "PVP'ers" are going to complain about he change in PVP just remember that OF COURSE PVP'ers are going to be mad about a horrible change in PVP, they are called PVP'ers bc they like PVP, obviously more than those not called so, and obviously the ones who care about it more.

Oh for...

Normalization would have had nothing to do with"erasing" all your "hard work". Raising the level cap to 60 when the expansion is released will take care of that.

I'm also quite sure that a lot of your gear was "earned" with loser trophies. Win or lose, you get favor and prestige and it's very safe to say that you did not have a 100% win rate. Getting rank 50 is not great feat of strength, nor does it make you good. All it takes is time and the willingness to play punching back for X number of ranks. That's it.

Rift PvP ain't that hard...

[ShinChuck]

Alright, at 45 pages, I'm sure it's all been said, and like half the internet, I'm omg so important that I still MUST say my piece, so apologies ahead of time.

Speaking as a guy who's PvPed since last May, has full gear, rep, yadda yadda...

Isn't normalization exactly why games like Street Fighter or Starcraft are played on a world stage, and why MMO PvP tends to be a lot more niche? Sure, there's still class/character/faction differences that cause imbalances, but gear adds on another layer of imbalances. A Street Fighter or Starcraft will typically be far more balanced than MMO PvP, because you don't need to first spend significant amounts of time gearing up Ken to match up with a fully geared Ryu. The simple short of it is that a fully geared, decent PvPer will almost certainly stomp a more skilled opponent with significantly lacking gear.

Essentially, whether or not you support normalization seems to boil down to whether you desire reward based on time and effort over more skillful matches, or more balanced matches theoretically relying more on skill (and what you desire is fine, I'm not knocking anyone!).

I personally would rather have opponents on equal footing as much as possible. Again, class imbalances will factor in, but it's tripled when gear is heaped on top. It is, however, a perfectly legitimate desire to want rewards for time and effort over more consistently skill-based matches (primarily it's time and effort, I'm not saying skill isn't a factor, it's just not the primary factor).

The real question is ultimately: does the majority want progression, or does the majority want more balanced fights? Would going one way or the other bring in more people than it would alienate? Trion does seem in a position to deliver the best of both worlds, so I'm hoping!

[NearioNL]

I bet some people are feeling pretty foolish right about now.



Especially that guy who unsubbed and deleted Rift off his computer.

uhu. curious to their replies now :P