BUGS & FEEDBACK - PvP Normalization Changes

[Undrsiege]

The last two nights when I have logged on, late afternoon/early evening EST, I have opened to CQ window to see it already in progress and I had my choice to immediately join any of the three factions. That was unheard of a week ago.

Now I have no analytic data to prove it's because of these proposed changes, but I can tell you that as an active PvP participant who was really enjoying the process, there are a lot of people I interact with, IN GAME, that are upset about this and I find the sudden disappearance of CQ queues on my shard not just a mere coincidence.

Most people are taking a wait and see and choose not to try and progress now without more information...

[KingEdRock]

I'll add one other observation that is easily vetted.

For the last month, the only faction you could join on my shard without having to queue, was Dominion. For whatever reason, they are our shards least popular faction. If you wanted to play Oath or NF, you had better have had the CQ window open with your cursor hovered over where the button was going to appear and insta click it when it popped. And even if you were, there were plenty of nights you were dumped in the queue. You could always, (and still can), drop the queue and play with Dominion. It just so happens I am in a very large guild on a very busy shard and we all kind of decided to try and call NF "our" faction. That became impractical once the queues were bloating past an hour for that faction.

The last two nights when I have logged on, late afternoon/early evening EST, I have opened to CQ window to see it already in progress and I had my choice to immediately join any of the three factions. That was unheard of a week ago.

Now I have no analytic data to prove it's because of these proposed changes, but I can tell you that as an active PvP participant who was really enjoying the process, there are a lot of people I interact with, IN GAME, that are upset about this and I find the sudden disappearance of CQ queues on my shard not just a mere coincidence.

In my opinion, the answer to this entire problem was Conquest or more specifically, what it could have evolved to. I found it pretty fun and the rewards came fast and were good. Very good in fact.

Your first step in this direction was allowing everyone to participate meaningfully, regardless of gear or rank in a large scale PvP. You allowed me to run around in a big *** guild raid group capturing and defending things again, getting into some pretty epic fights that went on toe to toe for a good long time. Repeatedly rezzing players back into the action, awesomeness. At times, it felt like DAoC or Warhammer, which were games that many people in the PvP community dearly loved.

It wasn't perfect, but a great foundation to build on. Gear progression still intact, everyone able to participate regardless of gear or rank. The matches where a faction coordinated the objectives of their raid groups, where people switched souls to improve the raid composition and played smart, always won the matches. Rank and gear were of little consequence. If you decided to lone wolf it in there and look to pick off solo's, probably more of a factor there, but I observed very little of that.

You already have the fix, you should trust it, grow it and focus on tweaking the objectives, victory scenarios, maps and general playability. You have made HUGE steps in regards to lag. I am happy to report I have been able to restore my graphic settings to their normal levels again.

A lot of us who were previously glad to follow you down this path are finding themselves reluctant to spend any more time on their characters here until you show your hand.

I was on the GW2 website checking the game out for the first time two nights ago. The rumblings around here are what have me looking at it now. Prior to the announcement of your exploring the concept of Normalization, I didn't feel at all like I was done here.

Now I'm not so sure and judging by the CQ queues, (or lack thereof), on my shard, I am getting the feeling I am not alone.

Edit: I was in and out of the room while typing this and the mods post appeared between the time I open the reply box and finally ended up posting it. Sorry if this is considered OT, but I don't see any other mod created threads that include the words normalization and feedback in their titles.

In fact, despite the negative reviews of conquest it actually offered something for everybody. Sure riding the zerg was the easy way, but once I maxed my rank/gear I felt free from the need to ride the zerg and the favor chain. I would seek out extractors with 2-3 enemies attempting to turn it and I could often defend it on my own as a stealth rogue. It was actually very invigorating. Conquest could be a mindless zerg but in order to win it was more about the smaller groups who split from the zergs. The zergs forced the big battles, but smaller skirmishes determined the ultimate winner.

Trion really had a good start at something, but threw it all away in a rushed normalization fiasco. So sad...

[TriX]

Trion really had a good start at something, but threw it all away in a rushed normalization fiasco. So sad...

Well you know, they diden't...... It's a test server, not live. It's put on the test server, because the don't want to rush it to live.

Everything on a test server is, well like the name say a test. If every test would end up beeing the exact same as released later on the live server, then there woulden really be a need for a test server.

I don't get it why players are saying they leave a game because of things happeing on a test server?
Unless ofc. they was already thinking of leaving for what ever reason(GW2?) and was looking for a *valid* excuse?

Just wondering....

[simpa1988]

posted it at another topic also but here is the feedback.
I really like the changes and enjoyed the fights....still want ifo about how the progression at pvp will work

[Xillean]

Hi guys,

We just spent a good part of the day cleaning this thread up. In Elrar's post, he made it clear that this thread would be heavily moderated and the discussion at hand was in relation to the PTS test of normalization. Discussing the test and opinion thereof is one thing, pages of argument, debating, and discussing other opinions are not constructive or productive. You are more than welcome to discuss these views in another thread, of which there are a few already.

You are more than welcome to express your views on normalization, the test, and your experience in the test, whether that feedback is good or bad. But, please keep in mind that assumptions and semantics only convolute a discussion which is used to provide very important data to the team.

Any further posts that completely ignore the OP and the request therein will be actioned according to the Code of Conduct.

Please keep this in mind when posting in threads that are being used to provide very important feedback to the devs.

Cheers!

I am quoting our good Bacon Lord because I still see a lot of bickering and arguing. Please guys take it to pms, a vent, another thread anything but here. We have been asked to stop it here and we should show our devs enough respect and courtesy to not only listen but do as instructed. I know what some people can really upset us, some of it is harsh and rude but dont give in and respond with the same, by doing so your making the devs jobs ten times harder then it needs to be and the more time they spend cleaning topics up is more time not spent on working on tweaking pvp to what we need it to be because they have to dig threw pages of arguing to get to the good bits of actual feedback.

On Topic: The most important thing we as pvpers should take from this is that our devs are fully aware pvp has problems and are dedicated to making our pvp experience better for all of those involved. I have already provided detailed feedback twice in this thread but I stress that my problems with the normalization has more to do with the feeling of being bland and boring then people getting to be on the same playing field as me. I have heard good solutions to make it were we can have both, normalization doesn't have to be pure 100% it can effect only our core gear, weapons and armor.

Leave our Sigils where we can pick and choose how we build them, leave our runes up to us, leave the PA as it is and provide faster and better pvp related ways to gain pa faster. Give us unique procs on our pvp gear and unique synergy crystals of different types for our different specs. They said on the pts they were aware soul talents were not increasing our stats as they should like increased fire power from mm did nothing. This tells me its not intended for them to do nothing so we can also count on our souls helping in making us more unique based of off our builds.

Some builds that would be loled at in normal warfronts became doable, some became good and some like Dom which already had uses became scary good. And lastly people seem to miss the point that it was a test, and a test is exactly what it says it is, a test. They said we would have progression, you dont have to have a huge gear edge over your opponent to have progression, there are other ways to reward us for our time and like the perks from Conquest many ways they can give us ways to increase our core stats by participating in pvp.

They may even make a pvp tab that lists general pvp perks, say ten different ones focusing on different areas like endurance, ap, sp and the like that will let you go over the cap but make it where you can not max them all, you get to pick say half of them. By doing that you still get to customize your toon and its still easier to balance because everyone would have the same pool to pick from. There is a big difference between picking things to tune your character for different objectives then simply massively over gearing your opponent where no matter how skilled they are likely to die just because you can crit them for 3-4 times what they can crit you for.

I am 100% for a more skilled pvp environment where newer players dont feel like they have a huge mountain to climb to stand a chance to fight me, I want them to be on par with me mostly, I want them to not have the 'oh you out gear me' excuse so when I crush them they know it was because I played better then they did and my skill at my class overcame theirs. I like my gear, but I didn't pvp to out gear my opponents, I pvped for fun and the rush of fighting people who can think for themselves. I only care about the gear for its other uses in game and because Trion long said we would be able to gear our toons in many different ways for content. So far they have kept their word, I can pvp, do nothing but rifts and planar invasions, dungeons, and even raid for good gear.

I have faith that no matter how they normalize our gear if they do at all we will still have the gear and it will still take a bit to earn and hopefully will be harder to earn so we may get a chance at pvp relics to use in the other parts of the game. And I know this isn't a very popular idea but really I wouldn't give a damn if they added valor and vengeance to every piece of gear in the game, raiding included at appropriate amounts for the gear level if they gave us pvp gear and items that had awesome set procs, crystals that aren't the same ap/sp and endurance but unique like the pve ones and ways to get relics via pvp. I hate gear separation and would rather people get gear for their play styles tuned to the difficultly of what they are doing to be useable no matter what they want to do.

But to answer your question more directly Elrar, after thinking about it over the last few days I can tell you that yes over all I did have fun. It needs a lot of tweaking and work for Normalization to be good, but yes I had fun.

[Arcshayde]

I am quoting our good Bacon Lord because I still see a lot of bickering and arguing. Please guys take it to pms, a vent, another thread anything but here. We have been asked to stop it here and we should show our devs enough respect and courtesy to not only listen but do as instructed. I know what some people can really upset us, some of it is harsh and rude but dont give in and respond with the same, by doing so your making the devs jobs ten times harder then it needs to be and the more time they spend cleaning topics up is more time not spent on working on tweaking pvp to what we need it to be because they have to dig threw pages of arguing to get to the good bits of actual feedback.

On Topic: The most important thing we as pvpers should take from this is that our devs are fully aware pvp has problems and are dedicated to making our pvp experience better for all of those involved. I have already provided detailed feedback twice in this thread but I stress that my problems with the normalization has more to do with the feeling of being bland and boring then people getting to be on the same playing field as me. I have heard good solutions to make it were we can have both, normalization doesn't have to be pure 100% it can effect only our core gear, weapons and armor.

Leave our Sigils where we can pick and choose how we build them, leave our runes up to us, leave the PA as it is and provide faster and better pvp related ways to gain pa faster. Give us unique procs on our pvp gear and unique synergy crystals of different types for our different specs. They said on the pts they were aware soul talents were not increasing our stats as they should like increased fire power from mm did nothing. This tells me its not intended for them to do nothing so we can also count on our souls helping in making us more unique based of off our builds.

Some builds that would be loled at in normal warfronts became doable, some became good and some like Dom which already had uses became scary good. And lastly people seem to miss the point that it was a test, and a test is exactly what it says it is, a test. They said we would have progression, you dont have to have a huge gear edge over your opponent to have progression, there are other ways to reward us for our time and like the perks from Conquest many ways they can give us ways to increase our core stats by participating in pvp.

They may even make a pvp tab that lists general pvp perks, say ten different ones focusing on different areas like endurance, ap, sp and the like that will let you go over the cap but make it where you can not max them all, you get to pick say half of them. By doing that you still get to customize your toon and its still easier to balance because everyone would have the same pool to pick from. There is a big difference between picking things to tune your character for different objectives then simply massively over gearing your opponent where no matter how skilled they are likely to die just because you can crit them for 3-4 times what they can crit you for.

I am 100% for a more skilled pvp environment where newer players dont feel like they have a huge mountain to climb to stand a chance to fight me, I want them to be on par with me mostly, I want them to not have the 'oh you out gear me' excuse so when I crush them they know it was because I played better then they did and my skill at my class overcame theirs. I like my gear, but I didn't pvp to out gear my opponents, I pvped for fun and the rush of fighting people who can think for themselves. I only care about the gear for its other uses in game and because Trion long said we would be able to gear our toons in many different ways for content. So far they have kept their word, I can pvp, do nothing but rifts and planar invasions, dungeons, and even raid for good gear.

I have faith that no matter how they normalize our gear if they do at all we will still have the gear and it will still take a bit to earn and hopefully will be harder to earn so we may get a chance at pvp relics to use in the other parts of the game. And I know this isn't a very popular idea but really I wouldn't give a damn if they added valor and vengeance to every piece of gear in the game, raiding included at appropriate amounts for the gear level if they gave us pvp gear and items that had awesome set procs, crystals that aren't the same ap/sp and endurance but unique like the pve ones and ways to get relics via pvp. I hate gear separation and would rather people get gear for their play styles tuned to the difficultly of what they are doing to be useable no matter what they want to do.

But to answer your question more directly Elrar, after thinking about it over the last few days I can tell you that yes over all I did have fun. It needs a lot of tweaking and work for Normalization to be good, but yes I had fun.

A more valuable solution would be to simply grant all players access to R40 or even R50 gear. If gear is truly the issue then just level the playing field in PvP. At least then you'd have accurate data, unclouded by poor soul scaling and PvE procs.

[Velkane]

A more valuable solution would be to simply grant all players access to R40 or even R50 gear. If gear is truly the issue then just level the playing field in PvP. At least then you'd have accurate data, unclouded by poor soul scaling and PvE procs.

Can't do that on Live, which is where they ultimately are intending to "test" this. If they did, it'd trivialize all of the non-raid PvE content. I can PvE in my 51 Purifier spec now about as well as a fresh Shamicar with the P40/P50 gear I have.

I think the PvE aspect is why they're even considering normalization at all. If PvPers never got good PvE gear, they'd be entirely shut out of the PvE content. Kind of like the PvEers are shut out of the PvP content right now. Trion has dug themselves a pretty big hole with the continual stat inflation, and this is an attempt to fix it.

I'm not sure I see any other ways out of this situation, short of somehow finding thousands of more PvP players to make matched WFs actually function. I suspect this is the end of the line for me in Rift. Hopefully the next MMO can find a better way to handle progression. I personally think too much time is involved in progression, period. I'd do both PvE and PvP if it didn't take dozens of hours a week just to do one. And I'd love to experience the progression on my 50 Warrior, Rogue, and Mage -- but there aren't enough hours in the year to do that. If progression was faster, this would be less of a problem. I don't know what that would do to player longevity though -- how many people really just want to play one character in one play style (PvE/PvP) vs. how many like variety?

[Fadore]

I'm a fan of normalization, not a fan of doing 350% less damage than I do on live.

350%? Really? What, were you healing the other team? You're either being extremely overdramatic here or math isn't your strong suit.

[Zaros]

350%? Really? What, were you healing the other team? You're either being extremely overdramatic here or math isn't your strong suit.

All of the above <3


Also, just a little more feedback, not sure if this was covered.
Healing pot consumables weren't normalized. Drinks, however, were. Isle Embrosia healed for 208 a tick, haha. Static health boosts weren't normalized (see: Dwarven Goulash) and iirc Battlemaster's brew wasn't either.

Also, PVE synergy crystals.. Those shouldn't work.
Alternatively though, creating a PVP iteration of synergy crystals would be amazing, to help reintroduce some customization.

Edit: As in, not simply static stat boosts, but with actual PVP-based uses.

[Daglar]

I've been going through the bugs and feedback today and investigating/making changes with an engineer. We'll be running another PTS test some time next week.

Being able to run these tests and get feedback and bugs is super important to us.

A few of the changes being made for the next test include:

--Modified the global damage and heal reductions. You will do more damage and heal for more.
--PVE Synergy Crystals do not function in Warfronts or Conquest during the test
--PVE Weapon/Trinket Effects and procs do not function in Warfronts or Conquest during the test, however, item enchantments do function.
--Fixed an issue where shielding abilities were not being reduced like healing.
--Self Buffs and PA now properly function during the test.
--Bolstering has been fixed to include defensive statistics - no more wearing all tank gear to gain a defensive advantage.

~Daglar

[Eughe]

I'm kinda confoozed on that last bit.

Were people wearing tank gear (+ toughness) or were they using tank specs.
Or are you referring to using shields? Because that second part would favor clerics wouldn't it?
And it wouldn't do much about switching to a tank spec and gaining hp and reductive unless that is what you are specifically targeting which would mean basically disabling tank specs in pvp,

Which again would favor cleric as their tank spec is a buff, which are being enabled

(or am I not understanding?)

[Daglar]

I'm kinda confoozed on that last bit.

Were people wearing tank gear (+ toughness) or were they using tank specs.
Or are you referring to using shields? Because that second part would favor clerics wouldn't it?
And it wouldn't do much about switching to a tank spec and gaining hp and reductive unless that is what you are specifically targeting which would mean basically disabling tank specs in pvp,

Which again would favor cleric as their tank spec is a buff, which are being enabled

(or am I not understanding?)

You could wear gear with tons of plus dodge and block on it, those values were not being affected nor set. They were outside the system. That is now fixed.

You can totally buff yourself or wear a shield.

[Eughe]

You could wear gear with tons of plus dodge and block on it, those values were not being affected nor set. They were outside the system. That is now fixed.

You can totally buff yourself or wear a shield.

Oooooooo ok then!

Thanks.

[Undrsiege]

I've been going through the bugs and feedback today and investigating/making changes with an engineer. We'll be running another PTS test some time next week.

Being able to run these tests and get feedback and bugs is super important to us.

A few of the changes being made for the next test include:

--Modified the global damage and heal reductions. You will do more damage and heal for more.
--PVE Synergy Crystals do not function in Warfronts or Conquest during the test
--PVE Weapon/Trinket Effects and procs do not function in Warfronts or Conquest during the test, however, item enchantments do function.
--Fixed an issue where shielding abilities were not being reduced like healing.
--Self Buffs and PA now properly function during the test.
--Bolstering has been fixed to include defensive statistics - no more wearing all tank gear to gain a defensive advantage.

~Daglar

When will the changes to heal debuffs being reduced to 10% occur, would it not be logical to make the change to 10% sooner to help get everything dialed in quicker...

[Daglar]

When will the changes to heal debuffs being reduced to 10% occur, would it not be logical to make the change to 10% sooner to help get everything dialed in quicker...

They were reduced in the playtest. However, there is a global reduction as well.

That is not a change that is going to stay on live after the test.

~Daglar