Role Imbalance in Callings

[nocks]

As the game grows closer to being balanced, we are approaching a place where anyone who has a Role can use it effectively. I agree that this is a good idea.

Now, what about the fact that Warriors are missing a Role? Is this not an imbalance that also deserves looking at?

Role spread among Callings:

Cleric: DPS/Heal/Tank
Mage: DPS/Heal/Support
Rogue: DPS/Tank/Support
Warrior: DPS/Tank


And to head off the common arguments:

1) Yes, some Warriors want a Support role. I don't care how much you are about to insist you don't personally like your Calling's Support role, it does add value and Warriors deserve one.

1.5) If you are a Warrior and about to insist you don't want a Support role, please consider that your tanking and melee DPS are going to be equal to the comparable roles within the Rogue and Cleric Callings eventually. Without a third role or some sort of unique skillset, there will be nothing that Warriors bring as a Calling which could not be accomplished by one of the more versatile Callings. In other words, there will be nothing that makes Warriors unique or necessary. If Trion is sincere about their balance and Kervik's quote about role equality is correct, then a Cleric or Rogue will be able to melee DPS and tank just as effectively as you, but they will also be able to ranged DPS/Support or Heal.

2) Warlord is not a Support soul. Atrius has confirmed this during 1.6 and the only Warlord ability which is not overwritten in a raid setting is a 5% armor debuff. Beastmaster is not a Support soul either, and making some sort of Warlord/Beastmaster hybrid does not create enough DPS to merit doing this over simply bringing an additional DPS role. Warriors do not have a Support role.

[Mellik]

I agree and fully support the notion that Warriors should receive a viable Support Role.

[Majorin]

Warriors are the only calling in the game that does not have a ranged dps soul. Also, warriors would require a support/heal soul. Therefore,

The devs need to add 1) warrior ranged dps soul and 2) warrior support soul. These need to be added before the devs make everything equal or warriors as a class will suck for a year.

The other alternative is to keep different classes in a top role scenario. Either way the route the devs are going is absurd.

The devs are breaking something that is not broken and fixing something that works so a few clerics can be uber sauce. Just so stupid.

[Mellik]

Warriors are the only calling in the game that does not have a ranged dps soul. Also, warriors would require a support/heal soul. Therefore,

The devs need to add 1) warrior ranged dps soul and 2) warrior support soul. These need to be added before the devs make everything equal or warriors as a class will suck for a year.

The other alternative is to keep different classes in a top role scenario. Either way the route the devs are going is absurd.

Greetings Majorin!

I am excited to see you post in support of this thread. Your insights and opinions are very valuable to this discussion and it would not be complete without them. I look forward to reading all of your posts explaining how Trion can create balance between the Callings.

I would love to hear, if you have the time, dear sir, how being of equal effectiveness in a given Role with others would cause you to experience the state of "suck"?

[AlbTroll]

Clerics can queue as "support" but for all intents and purposes their "Support" is really a subset of "Healer" in the form of group heals and dps.

Many of their souls do have buffs and debuffs, however, with the exception of "Clinging Spirit" and MAYBE one or two abilities in Druid come 1.8 they are all trumped (primarily) by Bard and Archon abilities. If you think this isn't the case head on over to the Cleric boards and prepare to be flamed...
c
The ultimate issue both pro and con for clerics is DoL. It is a game brake-er.

I do believe that it would be nice for warriors to have a true support soul(s). I would be willing to have Warlord significantly changed along with Beastmaster being totally replaced for 1-2 support soul(s). I loved playing my captain in LoTRO. Though there are many who would fight against this.

Ultimately I think that Clerics should have priority in terms of Support soul redesign and only if Trion has the balls to radically change some Warrior souls then maybe give warriors support.

[Eughe]

No support soul for cleric please. It will perpetuate the stereotype that clerics shouldnt dps.
They already said no anyway.

[aabuster1]

Just to repost:

What I see should happen with the warrior is:

1. The warlord should be made a pure support spec.
2. The reaver soul should be brought in line with other warrior tank souls.
3. All warrior tank souls need to provide unique flavor
4. All warrior tank souls should provide abilities high in the trees that give each on a specific limited advantage. So that the flavor of the tank is determined by its primary soul and so that the more powerful abilities can not all be in one spec.
5. The Rift blade soul should be given back competitive range abilities. Base the ranged damage on number of points in the soul so that you don't break PVP, the reason it was changed to start with IIRC.

These changes would allow the warrior a high level of versatility within the tanking role and give them the appropriate number of roles.

[Eughe]

4 Tank souls and 4 melee souls are uneeded at this point in time.

Paladin, RB, Warlord, should be redone into something more useful.

Would leave VK - Phys, Reaver - Mag, Champ - 2 hander , paragon - dual wield , BM - obligatory pet class (would be nice to have a few bow skills on this guy, assuming it doesnt.

[Tawadi]

Agreed that wars should have a support role in warlord. But might I also point out that in beta warlord was a support soul just like bard and archon but the warrior community whined so much that they didnt want it so it got changed to no longer be a support soul.
Seems like you guys should have thought things through in the first place.
In any case good luck with your wish, I hope and am sure you'll get it.

[nocks]

Clerics do not have a Support soul, but they have three other Roles. I don't exactly understand why Clerics would need a fourth role more than Warriors need a third.

I think the fear about sucking comes from this:

If you want to be able to tank, DPS and support you make a Rogue.

If you want to be able to tank, heal and DPS then you make a Cleric.

If you want to be able to DPS, heal and support then you make a Mage.

As you can see, each of those three Callings offers a unique set of potential flavors you can mix together to make some interesting dishes. Each of those three Callings offers something which the other does not: Mages can't tank, Clerics can't support, Rogues can't heal.

But then you get to Warriors. If you are really determined to have models on your character which look like plate armor, then that's something. But if you are a min/maxer and interested in the game from a standpoint of game mechanics rather than graphics and lore, then there is really no reason to create a Warrior. A Rogue is a Warrior+1, and so is a Cleric. Warriors (in my opinion) are afraid of being pointless.

Yes, Warriors realized that there were only two roles when they made the Calling. We assumed Trion was working on that, and historically we had some major band-aids (like when Spotter's Order was Warrior-exclusive) that made up for much of this. Unfortunately those things are no longer exclusive to the Warrior Calling.

[nocks]

Agreed that wars should have a support role in warlord. But might I also point out that in beta warlord was a support soul just like bard and archon but the warrior community whined so much that they didnt want it so it got changed to no longer be a support soul.
Seems like you guys should have thought things through in the first place.
In any case good luck with your wish, I hope and am sure you'll get it.

I looked through the notes for Beta 2-6 and Warlord was always a tanking soul at that point, so I can only conclude that this change took place in Alpha. If you can find one of the Warriors who asked Trion to do this then please let me know; I have certainly never met one.

[Mellik]

Clerics do not have a Support soul, but they have three other Roles. I don't exactly understand why Clerics would need a fourth role more than Warriors need a third.

I think the fear about sucking comes from this:

If you want to be able to tank, DPS and support you make a Rogue.

If you want to be able to tank, heal and DPS then you make a Cleric.

If you want to be able to DPS, heal and support then you make a Mage.

As you can see, each of those three Callings offers a unique set of potential flavors you can mix together to make some interesting dishes. Each of those three Callings offers something which the other does not: Mages can't tank, Clerics can't support, Rogues can't heal.

But then you get to Warriors. If you are really determined to have models on your character which look like plate armor, then that's something. But if you are a min/maxer and interested in the game from a standpoint of game mechanics rather than graphics and lore, then there is really no reason to create a Warrior. A Rogue is a Warrior+1, and so is a Cleric. Warriors (in my opinion) are afraid of being pointless.

Yes, Warriors realized that there were only two roles when they made the Calling. We assumed Trion was working on that, and historically we had some major band-aids (like when Spotter's Order was Warrior-exclusive) that made up for much of this. Unfortunately those things are no longer exclusive to the Warrior Calling.

I hear you.

A min/maxer is more concerned with the performance of the Role rather than if they have more of them. So, having 3 sub-par Roles would not entice them.

Focusing on performance, Warriors are the best Tanks in the game and their versatility is likely to ensure that they maintain that position of primacy.

If, two weeks after 1.8 goes live, it is determined that Clerics are better Tanks than Warriors, I will join you in petitioning Trion for a buff to Warrior Tanking or a nerf to Clerics if that is more appropriate.

[Hawkmoon0028]

I think there's one thing that's being danced around in this thread.

Warriors are beastly at both of the things they do. Arguably, in the right hands, warriors smash everyone in both single target and AoE DPS, and they are vastly superior tanks to both rogues and clerics.
The coming changes in 1.8 continue to support the warrior being superior in DPS, at least in a single target sense.

As for a support role- what exactly would you want a warrior support calling to do? Healing is out of the question, as already stated by the devs. So... are you looking for some type of combat buff bot? Didn't the Archon and the Bard already corner the market on this?
And even if some type of combat buff/DPS hybrid were to emerge, how would you balance a warrior in plate as a buff machine, versus an Archon mage in cloth?
Aside from giving warriors something else to queue as, what general purpose would this serve?

I'm not trying to put down the idea, mind you- I'm trying to understand the rationale- ASIDE from having a 3rd calling to queue as in LFG- as to why this would be beneficial.

[batou079]

I'll say what i did in the other thread that is talking about the same exact topic... (why exactly are their two seperate convos going? lol)

I do not advocate nerfs to clerics as the OP.

The only thing i think would be a nice gesture from Trion is give warriors a 3rd role.
It has hardcoded (LFG) determined system that gives all callings 3 total roles, while warriors have 2.
Simply for the sake of class flexibility, offering warriors a unique soul for support or even healing would be amazing for the game as a whole. Warriors do not need any DPS or tanking buffs, just flexibility like other classes. Clerics only have 3 healing souls, warriors should only have 3 tanking souls.

No nerfs, just add flexibility. Trion's first step is finally making AP useful to warriors. Let's hope they continue on this trend.

[snip]

You might be a bit outdated with warrior performance.
Sure, in PvP we do fine (or even "beastly")... but that isnt really the topic.

Beastly in PvE? Are you comparing top class speccs? We are not "beastly" DPS for single target (the determining "competitive" factor) Mages and Rogues are always top ST DPS now we pretty much fighting with clerics for 3rd place... and we are on par for top AoE dps simply due to convenience in one build (mages and clerics can get as high but have to specc specifically for it). Tanking remains our only uniquely "top" role. We are not "beastly" at this either. We are slightly better in terms of passive mitigation, but have no access to cooldowns like the amazing ones that rogue and cleric tanks have. Meanwhile their tanking is regularly getting small buffs per patch and closing the gap with tanking.

In the past, yes warriors WERE beastly at their roles (top DW dps build days in patch 1.4? when RW 2h DPS was top in game? when 51 VK with all its amazing CDs was top tank in game?). But alas those days are long gone.

I am fine with all that. I am not fine with our flexibility limitations as explained in my quote above.
a 3rd roll to match other callings either support or heals would simply help balance the game, no buffs needed.

[Eughe]

I think there's one thing that's being danced around in this thread.

Warriors are beastly at both of the things they do. Arguably, in the right hands, warriors smash everyone in both single target and AoE DPS, and they are vastly superior tanks to both rogues and clerics.
The coming changes in 1.8 continue to support the warrior being superior in DPS, at least in a single target sense.

As for a support role- what exactly would you want a warrior support calling to do? Healing is out of the question, as already stated by the devs. So... are you looking for some type of combat buff bot? Didn't the Archon and the Bard already corner the market on this?
And even if some type of combat buff/DPS hybrid were to emerge, how would you balance a warrior in plate as a buff machine, versus an Archon mage in cloth?
Aside from giving warriors something else to queue as, what general purpose would this serve?

I'm not trying to put down the idea, mind you- I'm trying to understand the rationale- ASIDE from having a 3rd calling to queue as in LFG- as to why this would be beneficial.

I was actually typing this in the other thread but i got a call and forgot all about it.

Although they can get imaginative with the buffs. We still dont have a lot of defensive buffs that could be used. Possibly more reflects, damage displacements, damage spreaders, etc.

Support/buffs are something that -can- be invested on the fly if needed.

Balance on the other hand is the problem.