Role Imbalance in Callings

[nocks]

Bard raid healing can be more than minor, though. It's actually pretty substantial, about double or triple what a Justicar puts out while he's tanking.

I really like the idea of No Permission to Die being castable on others. That gives Warriors a unique kind of battle res that is superior in some ways (no downtime) but inferior in others (really hard to cast it in time). That would give them a unique version of the Justicar ability. A battle res of some form really belongs to Warriors, they have four tank souls that are supposed to offer great forms of utility... but a battle res is probably the single greatest form of utility, and Warriors can't do it.

[Majorin]

No. The devs would have to end up adding a warrior heal soul. Probably a warrior version of chloro. Support will not be enough in the end. The end game for this is really a kind of carbon copy if each class being able to do everything every other class can do.

The sad thing is the current game makes sense. Clerics best at healing. Warriors best at tanking and etc. Dps close for mages, rogues, and warriors. The only nerf to current dynamic would be cleric single target dps but keep the class with excellent AOE.

Damn shame what is going on.

[Joldor]

The sad thing is the current game makes sense. Clerics best at healing. Warriors best at tanking and etc. Dps close for mages, rogues, and warriors. The only nerf to current dynamic would be cleric single target dps but keep the class with excellent AOE.

Damn shame what is going on.

Except this is not how Trion advertised their game, ever. They never said "X class will be the best at tanking while X class is best as healing while X class is best for DPS" I'm sure you loved it in whatever game you came from, but Trion has always developed this game with the class=role mindset. If you want your classic trinity class system, feel free to go on back to whatever game you left for Rift. Rift has always been, and will continue to be, a game where it is role vs role comparison, not class vs class. They design balance across roles, not classes. I'm sorry you chose a class with 2 roles available and are now unhappy because you aren't OP in those roles, it was, however, your choice.

Asking for a 3rd role for warriors is fine, hell, I hope Trion gives you both support AND heals AND ranged DPS. Then I hope for several months on end you are subpar in all those roles except 1. Maybe then you'll understand how the "OP ubersauce OMGYOUCANDOEVERYTHINGZ kiddies" feel. Asking for an equal number of roles to achieve balance is fine. Asking for an unbalanced setup, your example of warriors being the only tanks and top dps until warriors get a 3rd role, is what would break the game. You seem to be the only warrior stuck on this argument.

[aabuster1]

I hope he does get his wish. Make warlord a support soul. Make Paladin a heal soul. Make Riftblade a ranged soul.

And just for giggles make beast master a mana using, buffer, DPS caster with some melee ability.

I'm still not sure he would be happy though.

[Majorin]

Joldar - The fact of the matter remains that on live currently or since launch the classes have never been completely equal on roles because not every class can do the samething as every other class. In your perfect world everyone should role a cleric because the class has so many options and should be awesome at everything.

On live warriors are the best tanks. Clerics are the best healers. So if the devs are so against having different classes excel then why is it currently in the game and been this way since beta. The answer is it makes sense and is the only option given the role limitations of many classes compared to others.

You have been and will remain wrong, biased, and advocating an unfair balance system that rewards your class at the expense of others. You could possibly have a minor point if clerics were the worst at healing hut they are not.

Currently each class brings value to the group and excels in a valued part of the game.

[samuszzz86]

On live warriors are the best tanks. Clerics are the best healers. So if the devs are so against having different classes excel then why is it currently in the game and been this way since beta. The answer is it makes sense and is the only option given the role limitations of many classes compared to others.

So the only thing u want is:
warriors tank
clerics heal
mages dps
rogues dps

(I left out support on purpose since Majorin is only concerned about dps/tank)

So perty much, your wanting to remove role options period for all callings just to keep warriors at top choice for SOMETHING so you dont get butt-hurt about being competitive with another calling over said role.
Ok now i get you!!

[nocks]

I have to say, I think Majorin is right to an extent. Either that, or Trion is just completely and totally inept at balancing their game. The game has never been truly balanced across the Roles, even if that's what the Kervik quote says. We've also heard Zinbik say things like "We don't balance each Soul in a vacuum, we base it against Souls from other Callings" (paraphrasing) in reference to things like Justicar tanking.

Honestly, I think the most important part of the Kervik quote is the word "ideally," followed by the word "competitive." If you really take a look at the way the game has actually existed and put more stock into that then one quote by a developer on a non-official website... then it does seem like Trion wants Warriors to have the best mitigation and health. Hell, look at the Justicar changes right now on the PTS. They were still balancing it out but they've also made sure that Justicars don't have the mitigation and health that Warriors do. I'm not saying this is right, it's just reality.

I do think they intend for Warriors/Rogues/Mages to have the same DPS, that much seems clear. So maybe too much stock is put into that single Kervik quote.

tl;dr: If you really believe the game is meant to be balanced across Role instead of Calling, how do you explain the year of balancing we've just undergone?

[Majorin]

So the only thing u want is:
warriors tank
clerics heal
mages dps
rogues dps

(I left out support on purpose since Majorin is only concerned about dps/tank)

So perty much, your wanting to remove role options period for all callings just to keep warriors at top choice for SOMETHING so you dont get butt-hurt about being competitive with another calling over said role.
Ok now i get you!!

NO. You honestly don't get it at all really.

[Eughe]

tl;dr: If you really believe the game is meant to be balanced across Role instead of Calling, how do you explain the year of balancing we've just undergone?

Uh, that's what the balancing act was doing.

He specifically said that there is no rule that a Mage must do more damage as a rogue.
So no specifically is suppose to do particularly be the best at something. Each role that a class does should have its own comparable merits.

Meaning no, according to that quote, warriors aren't suppose to have the most mitigation.
It should be like healing. Clerics have more options, but as of yet, have not caused anyone to simply -not- use chloro. In fact most guilds use both.

Same thing they planned on doing with sabs. They specifically said they wanted it to be comparable to SCs and Cabs. So obviously they do want roles and actions a class does to be competitive to other. Hence the damage nerfs and buffs, gear balancing, pa balancing that's been going on. So there is no real clear cut or penalty for one class over another in a specific role that they share.

Except for tanking.

The messed up in two different areas. They didn't play to the natural strengths each soul has and expanded on it. Clerics were great phys damage takers, rogues did well on magic, warriors a bit of both. They all potentially brought utility to the raid depending on spec.

Each one could have been balanced (theoretically) around how they tanked.
Clerics could have gotten more reactive mitigation via heal, more self healing multipliers, probably lowered the cd on a few things, fix the scaling a bit, a few imaginative dodge/parry cds (since they went that route) and at the end of they would be great physical tanks, probably struggle a bit with magic and elemental damage but cd managment would help with that.

Rogues could continue thier damage reduction and bubble bobble thing they had going on. Deflect would still be added, but they would specialize in reducing magic and elemental damage and would have to juggle cd on phys

And warriors would deal with both very well. Deal with magic a lot better than clerics and phys a lot better than rogues, possibly not out classing them.

Probably on bosses with mondo phys attacks you'd have a cleric and warrior tank, magic galore, warrior and rogue.
Everyone has their use

But they went a different direction.

1.6 brought homogenization and that's how they are seemingly balancing things now. And to not make warriors cry, they make them a bit tougher, but possibly still easily replaceable. Just wonder how they will bring rogues in line.


Anyway they went about this in the wrong way a long time ago and..well here we are.

[Mellik]

NO. You honestly don't get it at all really.

Greetings yet again my fair Majorin!

I believe that the primary reason no one "gets" what you want is because you have focused on the problem (i.e. complaining) rather than on the solution. Ideally, when one perceives an issue or problem you define it and then shift your attention on coming up with a solution.

It would be extremely helpful if you could do this and then stick with it. Because, to be honest, you have presented a bit of a moving target with your reasoning, explanations and complaints.

In short, perhaps you could do something like this.

Majorin speaks and sayeth:

Problem: I do not believe it is fair that Warriors, who are limited to only two Roles, should be in competition for DPS or Tanking with any other Calling.

Solution: I propose that the changes on PTS be reverted to ensure the continued primacy of Warriors as Tanks and the DPS changes to Warriors be further tweaked so that we are at least 5% higher on ST DPS to any other Calling.

Now, you have given a concrete starting point for discussion. It also indicates a focus on solving the problem rather than just complaining endlessly and wondering why no understands your point of view.


~This has been a public service post by Mellik~

[Sebb]

Except for tanking.

The messed up in two different areas. They didn't play to the natural strengths each soul has and expanded on it. Clerics were great phys damage takers, rogues did well on magic, warriors a bit of both. They all potentially brought utility to the raid depending on spec.

Each one could have been balanced (theoretically) around how they tanked.
Clerics could have gotten more reactive mitigation via heal, more self healing multipliers, probably lowered the cd on a few things, fix the scaling a bit, a few imaginative dodge/parry cds (since they went that route) and at the end of they would be great physical tanks, probably struggle a bit with magic and elemental damage but cd managment would help with that.

Rogues could continue thier damage reduction and bubble bobble thing they had going on. Deflect would still be added, but they would specialize in reducing magic and elemental damage and would have to juggle cd on phys

And warriors would deal with both very well. Deal with magic a lot better than clerics and phys a lot better than rogues, possibly not out classing them.

Probably on bosses with mondo phys attacks you'd have a cleric and warrior tank, magic galore, warrior and rogue.
Everyone has their use

But they went a different direction.

1.6 brought homogenization and that's how they are seemingly balancing things now. And to not make warriors cry, they make them a bit tougher, but possibly still easily replaceable. Just wonder how they will bring rogues in line.

Anyway they went about this in the wrong way a long time ago and..well here we are.

They did go about things wrong a long time ago. You bring up healing, but clerics have been complaining for a long time that chloros are OP (though personally I think it's the crystal that does it). Each heal soul has a very obvious differentiation from the others. The same cannot be said about warrior tanking souls. The scenario you described where rogues were the masters of one, clerics the master of the other, and warriors the master of both depending on spec I think would have been acceptable to the community.

Instead, they went about homogenization of capability, but not versatility. In the end, this thread is asking for that versatility piece to be recognized. Give warriors a heal soul, a support soul, and a range dps option. Give mages a tank soul if they want it too. Differentiate on game play experience.

[Eughe]

They did go about things wrong a long time ago. You bring up healing, but clerics have been complaining for a long time that chloros are OP (though personally I think it's the crystal that does it). Each heal soul has a very obvious differentiation from the others. The same cannot be said about warrior tanking souls. The scenario you described where rogues were the masters of one, clerics the master of the other, and warriors the master of both depending on spec I think would have been acceptable to the community.

Instead, they went about homogenization of capability, but not versatility. In the end, this thread is asking for that versatility piece to be recognized. Give warriors a heal soul, a support soul, and a range dps option. Give mages a tank soul if they want it too. Differentiate on game play experience.

It was a vocal minority. Many didn't actually care to heal anyway. Problem was that a few felt since dps was meh, all they had was healing. Others simply like to heal.

At this point neither one in general cares except for pvp and even then clerics would LOVE not to heal.



About tanking, people have been asking for the scenario I've said, even today.
I just don't know the reasoning on going for homogenization.
I mean all the mechanics are literally there, it may take a while to get them right but all it takes is a "ok this is what we are trying to do and dunno how long it's gonna take" and everyone would wait patiently.

:shrugs:

Doesn't matter anymore quite honestly.

[Joldor]

If clerics were the worst at healing, they would be the worst at every role in the game. I know you were just giving an example, but on live, healing is the only thing clerics EXCEL at. Yes they can fill the other roles, but not as good as any other class. And you "logic" is just that, yours. It is NOT Trions logic, and thats what you fail to see. Trion wants every role to be competitive across the classes. You chose a class with 2 roles, that was your choice. You asking for other classes (mostly just clerics) to be nerfed just because you are no longer happy with only 2 roles, is asking Trion to now change their vision of the game. This is what YOU need to understand. Trion never said warriors would be OP tanks/dps since thats the only 2 roles they had. You knew what warriors could do when you picked it and you knew Trion wanted role balance not #roles per class balance, idk what else to say to you man.

Like i said, I hope they give warriors every role. I hope in 1.9 you guys can melee/ranged DPS, support, tank, heal. Then until 1.16 I hope you guys are subpar in all of those roles except 1. Because this is where clerics stand right now. I'm not threatened by a warrior suddenly being able to heal, go ahead, give warriors healing ability comparable to clerics/mages. Go ahead, give warriors support comparable to bards/archon. Whatever it takes for Majorin to be "happy" he rolled a warrior

[nocks]

If clerics were the worst at healing, they would be the worst at every role in the game. I know you were just giving an example, but on live, healing is the only thing clerics EXCEL at. Yes they can fill the other roles, but not as good as any other class. .

Why do you think it's okay for Clerics to excel at healing, but not okay for Warriors to excel at tanking?

This is the hypocrisy that gets me in some of these Cleric arguments.

[Majorin]

Good post Jolodor. You made some good points. Reverse that logic and apply it to warriors. In the end, I think we indirectly agree on alot of things. It does not make sense for Trion to have a class that can tank but horrible at doing. It also does not make sense for Trion to have a class with four roles perform those roles as well as a class limited to only two roles.

Trion has never said all roles are to be equal. Alot of this is based on a dev posted quoted out of context by a guy who did not undrstand it. What we do know is that the game since beta had had classes that are better at certain roles then others. Take warrior tanking being superior to cleric tanking which makes sense given warriors cannot heal.

I do know that alot of the kids screaming for buffs to cleric tanking to be equal to warriors are the same kids that come on these threads and advocate a nerf to chloro healing because clerics have.... you get the picture.

The problem is the game and these forums have a very vocal minority of selfish and biased players who happen to play cleric and rogue. Check the warrior forums Trion.

You cannot ever have cleric tanking come even remotely close to warrior tanking and have a well round game that is a positive experience for all players of every class. Cleric dps should be less than warriors. It is not a hard concept to understand.