Role Imbalance in Callings

[nocks]

I think there's one thing that's being danced around in this thread.

Warriors are beastly at both of the things they do. Arguably, in the right hands, warriors smash everyone in both single target and AoE DPS, and they are vastly superior tanks to both rogues and clerics.
The coming changes in 1.8 continue to support the warrior being superior in DPS, at least in a single target sense.

As for a support role- what exactly would you want a warrior support calling to do? Healing is out of the question, as already stated by the devs. So... are you looking for some type of combat buff bot? Didn't the Archon and the Bard already corner the market on this?
And even if some type of combat buff/DPS hybrid were to emerge, how would you balance a warrior in plate as a buff machine, versus an Archon mage in cloth?
Aside from giving warriors something else to queue as, what general purpose would this serve?

I'm not trying to put down the idea, mind you- I'm trying to understand the rationale- ASIDE from having a 3rd calling to queue as in LFG- as to why this would be beneficial.

Warriors are parsing about equal to Mages and Rogues on the PTS server - we haven't had DPS dominance in any form for the last few months. We're pretty well balanced with the other Callings for this.

We have a slight lead in tanking, that's all, and only in a single tanking build.

What you are saying was true for a lot of the game's history - Warriors were top DPS. Now that's no longer really the case, so it's time for Warriors to start looking at alternative ways to find a niche. Besides, it's not really fair to have Warriors be unquestionably the best DPS.

[nocks]

I hear you.

A min/maxer is more concerned with the performance of the Role rather than if they have more of them. So, having 3 sub-par Roles would not entice them.

Focusing on performance, Warriors are the best Tanks in the game and their versatility is likely to ensure that they maintain that position of primacy.

If, two weeks after 1.8 goes live, it is determined that Clerics are better Tanks than Warriors, I will join you in petitioning Trion for a buff to Warrior Tanking or a nerf to Clerics if that is more appropriate.

I understand that Clerics do not want three subpar roles. The only problem is, if Clerics are exactly equal to Warriors in terms of tanking and DPS, then they are actually superior due to the fact they can also heal. That added versatility is a real advantage that Warriors do not have. This is the fundamental imbalance that must be corrected before Rift can have any kind of real balance.

[Redcruxs]

oh! this thread is full of new and exciting ideas that i have never seen before















/sarcasm off

[nocks]

oh! this thread is full of new and exciting ideas that i have never seen before

/sarcasm off

Hey, I don't come into your thread and....

Oh, right.

[Joldor]

If you want to be able to tank, DPS and support you make a Rogue.

If you want to be able to tank, heal and DPS then you make a Cleric.

If you want to be able to DPS, heal and support then you make a Mage.
.

Only thing I will say to this, some people wanted to tank/dps, but chose cleric because they preferred it to the playstyle/look of warriors. I understand what you're saying, just pointing out that some people play a cleric and never heal. I know you're point is the class CAN heal, warriors CAN'T, but some people did choose a cleric with only a warrior's options in mind

If, two weeks after 1.8 goes live, it is determined that Clerics are better Tanks than Warriors, I will join you in petitioning Trion for a buff to Warrior Tanking or a nerf to Clerics if that is more appropriate.

My main is a Cleric, and my purpose for making a Cleric was to tank. I would also sign the petition, as I don't Clerics to be looked at as warriors have been for some time, as the vastly superior tank. Most of the people playing clerics, want to be competitive, not the best. Tanks should be close enough to each other that you take the player not the calling

Besides, it's not really fair to have Warriors be unquestionably the best DPS.

Mind sharing this mindset with Majorin? It was my understanding, according to him, all warriors want to be the best DPS...sorry my sarcasm got away from me there

I agree with giving warriors a 3rd role, just not sure where it fits in unless its a "warrior support instead of mage/rogue support" type thing. Like, the lowest geared rogue runs bard, but if the warrior is worse off you have him support instead, or are you wanting a completely different support and have a 3rd support role in raids? Not sure what type of buffs/debuffs you would provide, What are the thoughts on this?

[nocks]

I agree with giving warriors a 3rd role, just not sure where it fits in unless its a "warrior support instead of mage/rogue support" type thing. Like, the lowest geared rogue runs bard, but if the warrior is worse off you have him support instead, or are you wanting a completely different support and have a 3rd support role in raids? Not sure what type of buffs/debuffs you would provide, What are the thoughts on this?

I think there are spaces within Rift to give Warriors a unique support role. For instance, if Paladin worked similar to Bard except by absorbing damage/applying damage shields instead of healing. Like a Purifier/Bard hybrid.

Otherwise you could always give Warrior support a focus on increasing DPS, where Bard and Archon have general buffs. My goal would not be to have Warriors replace bards/archons, but have them work together as a third Support option. Maybe a Support option centered on debuffing enemies rather than buffing your team. There are options available, it's really up to Trion to find something interesting to do.

[jerwel]

I think there are spaces within Rift to give Warriors a unique support role. For instance, if Paladin worked similar to Bard except by absorbing damage/applying damage shields instead of healing. Like a Purifier/Bard hybrid.

Otherwise you could always give Warrior support a focus on increasing DPS, where Bard and Archon have general buffs. My goal would not be to have Warriors replace bards/archons, but have them work together as a third Support option. Maybe a Support option centered on debuffing enemies rather than buffing your team. There are options available, it's really up to Trion to find something interesting to do.

A lord of the rings captin style class would be awesome for us imo. And our tank souls REALLY need more fluff/identity abilities as they all play almost identically with MAYBE 1 unique tool for each soul.

[Patchkid]

Warriors should definitely have a Support soul. I actually see Warriors as having better potential support design than ever Archon or Bard with a hybrid set of options that are not completely identical to either other support class.

Here's how I would love to break down the Warrior support style.

1. Beastmaster:

This is a debuff, raid stat buff support class. They debuff the target(s) currently with the same 5% extra damage debuff Archons and Bards use. They also should introduce a unique debuff to this class that gives an additional damage increase to All Pets. A 32 or higher base ability that augments their Fierce Strike to also increase all pet damage by 10% (while keeping the 20% increase to their own pet).

Currently has Str, Dex, End passive buffs. Should bolster these to the level of Archon, and combine Str/Dex auras to create a Wis/Int aura. Resistance and Armor should be part of Warlord builds, as they are already done by Bards also (making BM/Bard a great Support combo).

In addition, they should have a +5%-7% to crit debuff. While this is an ability of the Bloodstalker build, 32+ Champion and... umm Sentinel (yeah, healers don't have time to keep a 15s Debuff active), it would also increase their debuffing potential. At the same time they can drop 2 points into Warlord and grab Spotter's Order -- plus the other changes that should go into Warlord in the following section.

2. Warlord:

Off-tank / Support hybrid. Bard-Like abilities via Calls -- Battle, Entrench, add in +5% crit (call to regroup change) and change Aid Command to be Call to Aid for +5% healing. WL is a slower builder for these passive buffs, but can spec to keep them active for 30 seconds.

Bring Archon and unique long-duration CDs. Bolster Aspect of the Elements/Fallen Hero to Archon/Bard level. While they can only have one active, it's meant to compliment the other support character in the raid/party or supply support where there was none previously. Combine this support soul with Archons for maximum support utility.


Warlord and BM would both have their own unique niches (pet DPS debuff, plus decent DPS or Cutting Distraction and off-tank options).

You can hybrid both builds together to be a full support Warrior with unique support tools (Rallying Command, Pet DPS buff, Cutting Distraction) while also providing 90% of the utility a Bard/Archon combo could offer. Some specs already fill in those gaps that are not support (i.e. Spiritual Deficiency from an Inquisitor fills the Archon/Bard 7% to magic debuff). At the same time you'd do fairly decent DPS, at least comparable to Archon, definitely better than Bard.

[Gray]

1) Yes, some Warriors want a Support role. I don't care how much you are about to insist you don't personally like your Calling's Support role, it does add value and Warriors deserve one.

1.5) If you are a Warrior and about to insist you don't want a Support role, please consider that your tanking and melee DPS are going to be equal to the comparable roles within the Rogue and Cleric Callings eventually. Without a third role or some sort of unique skillset, there will be nothing that Warriors bring as a Calling which could not be accomplished by one of the more versatile Callings. In other words, there will be nothing that makes Warriors unique or necessary. If Trion is sincere about their balance and Kervik's quote about role equality is correct, then a Cleric or Rogue will be able to melee DPS and tank just as effectively as you, but they will also be able to ranged DPS/Support or Heal.

2) Warlord is not a Support soul. Atrius has confirmed this during 1.6 and the only Warlord ability which is not overwritten in a raid setting is a 5% armor debuff. Beastmaster is not a Support soul either, and making some sort of Warlord/Beastmaster hybrid does not create enough DPS to merit doing this over simply bringing an additional DPS role. Warriors do not have a Support role.

1) no one "deserves" anything. in the worst case players who really want to do support can reroll mage/rogue. the option is already there.

1.5) implying it's a competition between archon/bard and a possible support soul. there are already raids where no one wants to go bard. fine, let a warrior do it. right now they can't. it's the decision of the raid anyway how they're gonna fill the spots.
and rogues are complaining about riftstalker for some time now, druids getting a buff in 1.8.. (but the role should fit the situation anyway. trion will never make every soul equally perform everywhere, because it's simply not possible).

2) warlord isn't one NOW. there's no real reason the devs couldn't mold the warlord into a viable soul (besides the additional work) that stands on it's own instead of the red-headed stepchild of the tanking souls that it is right now.
in the same manner, make riftblade a semi range spec (like, only 20 feet range) with the appropriate cons.
there, every soul is different enough with enough unique flavour so players have an actual choice besides "best tank spec vs highest performing melee spec"

and I always figured BM to be more of a solo spec, pets in raids never worked out (unless they are sitting next to you and simply act as buff bot).

As for a support role- what exactly would you want a warrior support calling to do? Healing is out of the question, as already stated by the devs. So... are you looking for some type of combat buff bot? Didn't the Archon and the Bard already corner the market on this?
And even if some type of combat buff/DPS hybrid were to emerge, how would you balance a warrior in plate as a buff machine, versus an Archon mage in cloth?
Aside from giving warriors something else to queue as, what general purpose would this serve?

I'm not trying to put down the idea, mind you- I'm trying to understand the rationale- ASIDE from having a 3rd calling to queue as in LFG- as to why this would be beneficial.

they could do the warlord like the captain in lotro. short buffs etc. maybe even some healing sprinkled in (up in the tree so you can not mix it with other souls).
regarding the the mage/warrior comparison: debuff the armor/defenses down to cloth level. it's not that hard.

as I said, in the end it gives a warrior player more choice how to play. and more options/choices are always good in my book.

Balance on the other hand is the problem.

this. the additional headache to balance all that is probably the biggest argument not to do it.

[soulesschild]

*snip*

My main is a Cleric, and my purpose for making a Cleric was to tank. I would also sign the petition, as I don't Clerics to be looked at as warriors have been for some time, as the vastly superior tank.Most of the people playing clerics, want to be competitive, not the best. Tanks should be close enough to each other that you take the player not the calling


*snip*

I think a lot of warriors have a problem with this part. If all tanks are competitive, why would I if I was the raid leader, bring a warrior over a cleric or rogue if they were both equally geared and skilled? Warrior's cant range DPS on biased fight (read, almost all fights), they can't swap to support like a bard and can't swap to heals if need be. You get to be a tank, melee dps, or ****ty ranged DPS. Warriors lack the flexibility that rogues and clerics bring.

This is why in my personal opinion I always thought that wars would retain the #1 tanking role in terms of mitigation while clerics/rogues can fill in if there is no war tank or if there is a fight designed around using a cleric/rogue tank.

[hopp]

IIRC Warlord used to be a support soul back in beta. It should have stayed that way..

[aabuster1]

This is why in my personal opinion I always thought that wars would retain the #1 tanking role in terms of mitigation while clerics/rogues can fill in if there is no war tank or if there is a fight designed around using a cleric/rogue tank.

Oh, the Justicar is only supposed to tank when there is no warrior around. This makes complete sense to me. Tanking is secondary for the Justicar.

Now back to reality. A tank is a tank regardless of class and should be able to tank equivalently in all encounters.

[soulesschild]

Oh, the Justicar is only supposed to tank when there is no warrior around. This makes complete sense to me. Tanking is secondary for the Justicar.

Now back to reality. A tank is a tank regardless of class and should be able to tank equivalently in all encounters.

Okay let me re-word that,

In my opinion a warrior will be the goto choice for tanking for progression due to their superior mitigation vs. all other tanks when mitigation is all that matters in the fight.


Again, you avoided the issue of if we made all tanks competitive (I would assume this means equal-ish overall mitigation (mitigation+EHP) if we are measuring mitigation as the "competitive edge"), why would I as a raid leader bring in a warrior tank over a more flexible cleric or rogue? Hence why I formulated that opinion above because in the case of everyone being homogenized to have equal-ish/competitive mitigation, where does that leave warriors?

Also, the definition "competitive" has yet to really be defined by anyone. Are we talking equal-ish mitigation? 5% overall damage taken? 10% overall damage taken? What is the acceptable value that clerics are looking for? I think 10% is the uppermost limit I would say, but anything less than 5% and you will have warriors crying all over the forums.

[nocks]

Again, you avoided the issue of if we made all tanks competitive (I would assume this means equal-ish overall mitigation (mitigation+EHP) if we are measuring mitigation as the "competitive edge"), why would I as a raid leader bring in a warrior tank over a more flexible cleric or rogue? Hence why I formulated that opinion above because in the case of everyone being homogenized to have equal-ish/competitive mitigation, where does that leave warriors?

Exactly, I think this sums it up nicely. The problem is that in the current state of the game, if Clerics and Rogues are equal tanks they are actually superior Callings.

[Kedon]

I think there are spaces within Rift to give Warriors a unique support role. For instance, if Paladin worked similar to Bard except by absorbing damage/applying damage shields instead of healing. Like a Purifier/Bard hybrid.

Otherwise you could always give Warrior support a focus on increasing DPS, where Bard and Archon have general buffs. My goal would not be to have Warriors replace bards/archons, but have them work together as a third Support option. Maybe a Support option centered on debuffing enemies rather than buffing your team. There are options available, it's really up to Trion to find something interesting to do.

I agree that a support Warlord should be something that should work alongside the Bard and Archon rather than a swap out for one or the other.

As a starting point: In early beta No Permission to Die was castable on allies. Changing it back to work that way again would give the Warlord at least one unique capability (an immunity debuff could prevent abuse via multiple Warlords).

If it was any other game I'd suggest "threat manipulation" as a possible area of expertise (skilled Vanguard Psioncists were well respected for this capability). Unfortunately threat being what it is in Rift that wouldn't be too useful here.