Role Imbalance in Callings

[Galibier]

I wish Trion would state there intention. Not some off quotes from developers in different interviews. We need a post on the forums from the lead developer of about where they think class balance should be in this game. Also, we need request our PA be tied to account so when all the warriors re-roll clerics they don't have to do it again.

Everyone is re-rolling cleric. LAWL

Well usually if from when a product was in development up to the current date, multiple developers say that same thing, the big muckity muck figures if the customer can't get the hint there is no helping them.

[Majorin]

Well usually if from when a product was in development up to the current date, multiple developers say that same thing, the big muckity muck figures if the customer can't get the hint there is no helping them.

The warrior class is nothing like it was at launch. The current state of the game has warriors as best tanks by a long shot. Saying your interptation of the dev plan is correct because you like it means absolotely nothing. If the players don't like it they can and should give as much feedback as they want. That is the point of the forums.

Warriors and players from other callings are telling the devs that balance in 1.8 is unfair. The dev plan is flawed and needs to be changed. The players have that right.

[Mellik]

I wish Trion would state there intention. Not some off quotes from developers in different interviews. We need a post on the forums from the lead developer of about where they think class balance should be in this game. Also, we need request our PA be tied to account so when all the warriors re-roll clerics they don't have to do it again.

Everyone is re-rolling cleric. LAWL

Majorin, I am so pleased to see you still fighting the good fight, sharing your wisdom and point of view with the unwashed masses.

I do, however, have to object and disagree with your last statement. There seems to be some indication that you are confused by the term "everyone". Everyone means basically every single person without exception. Else wise, it would "be" every one.

As I am not re-rolling a Cleric, obviously "everyone" is NOT re-rolling a Cleric. I have no interest in a Calling I perceive as so boring.

I have a follow up question for you:

Are you re-rolling a Cleric and abandoning your Warrior brothers to fight on without you?

Cause, if you're not, then "everyone" also would not apply. Just sayin'.

[nocks]

If you want to start pointing to support abilities I could pull out just as many abilities from reaver, warlord and void knight and make the same argument you just did for warriors

No, you couldn't. Warriors do not have a Support role. Please try, though. I'd love to see a Warrior Support combination of three tank souls that would somehow function without tanking.

[Redcruxs]

No, you couldn't. Warriors do not have a Support role. Please try, though. I'd love to see a Warrior Support combination of three tank souls that would somehow function without tanking.

the abilities that the poster you quoted was referring to are in healing and DPS souls and are almost never used. if you made a build to incorporate them it would be beyond useless and woudn't even be able to queue as support. the point still stands, if you are going to just make an arbitrary list of every ability that has a buff or debuff on it and call it cleric "support" then you can do the same thing with warriors "support"

protective companion
enraged companion
protective instincts
mark of inevitability
mark of extermination
bash
Life's Rapture
aegis of vitality
aegis of salvation
shock burst
disrupt
soul pillage
spellbreaker
rift shield


i'm sure there are tons more, the point is, just listing random spells that CC/buff/debuff/purge/interupt/cleanse does not make a class "support"

While that is essentially accurate it glosses over Spiritual Deficiency, Clinging Spirit, Perseverence (with or without Determination), Healer's Covenant, Protect the Flock, Empowering Light, Luminous Gaze, Quietus, Spiritual Protection, Purge, Trepidation, Impede, Excommunicate, and Breath of Light.

Some of it is redundant, some of it is only situationally useful, but it's still there. A "proper" build can bring enough in the way of buffs, debuffs, CC, cleanses, and the purge to be quite useful in 5-mans, especially PUGs, even though they're not so useful in raids.

/shrugs. Frankly I don't care what people use for "Support" so long as they don't get people killed or hold the group back to the point that we wipe.

the ONLY support souls in the game are archon and bard, anything else is just semantics

[Nightreaver]

Well usually if from when a product was in development up to the current date, multiple developers say that same thing, the big muckity muck figures if the customer can't get the hint there is no helping them.

Well in all honesty I can't say I understand what Trions actual intent was/is.

The fact of the matter is that both Mages and Rogues have Support as their third role and when Warriors did have a third role it was Support as well. So to me, in respect to Class balance, it seems that it would make the most sense that Trions intent for third role for Cleric would also be Support.

Clerics want us to ignore what players say and accept that it is Trions intent that Justicars are Tank because the tool tip has defined it as so.
But at the same time they want us to ignore that Trion has defined Archon as DPS in the tooltip and accept that it is Trions intent that Archon is Support because players say so.

The fact of the matter is that Justicar is no more a Tank role than Archon is a DPS role.
The fact of the matter is that Justicar is just as much a Support role as Archon.
The fact of the matter is that unlike most other Souls, both Archon and Justicar Souls have dual roles.

Contrary to what some Clerics have claimed, the reason Clerics are able to queue as Support is not because Trion just decided to allow Clerics to queue for Support to shorten the Queue. The only way you can queue for Support is with points spent in Support. Clerics are no exception, they are able to queue for Support by putting in Justicar..... as Support.

Both flagging (the icon in your character portrait that defines what role you are in) and how Trion determines queue eligibility is determined by the points your spec has assigned to different roles.


Most Souls are associated with a single specific role. When you put points into that soul you are putting points into that one role.
Archons and Justicars are different in that they have Dual roles.
When you put points into Archon you are putting an equal number of points into both DPS and Support roles.
When you put points into Justicar you are putting an equal number of points into both Tank and Support roles.
There is NO difference between how Archon mechanics or flagging works and Justicar.

So if Clerics want to define Justicars as Tanks and expect them to be competitive with other Tank roles then Archon needs to be defined as DPS and able to compete with other DPS roles.

If you want to define Archon as Support then Justicar also needs to be defined as Support.

Yeah, I know what you're going to say... 'but Archon has debuffs and buffs which are better suited for Support that no other DPS role has'.
But then Justicar has Healing and a Battle Rez which are better suited for Support that no other Tank role has.

[Eughe]

Doms are not competitive with bards and archons in a situation where lfg is considered.

No difference in support with 22 justi, 16 justi and 11 justi in a situation where lfg is considered.
22 justi is an arbitrary number.

Your logic has no practical reasoning in the actual game.

[Majorin]

Good post. I hope Trion takes note and stops the 1.8 tanking buffs to Clerics. At the same token I hope they do not nerf wardens. I like my cleric healer. Leave her alone. This is how most clerics think of Justicar btw. Support tank role. And no I am not making that up.

Class balance is not (and never will be) giving clerics equal tanking or dps ability as warriors.

[Nightreaver]

the ONLY support souls in the game are archon and bard, anything else is just semantics

Actually that is incorrect.

The only Support souls (As defined by Trion) are Bard and Dominator.
Archon and Justicar are both Dual Role.
Archons have an equal number of points assigned to both DPS and Support
Justicars have an equal number of points assigned to both Tank and Support.

Warriors are the only class that does not have a role with points assigned to Support.

[Mellik]

Actually that is incorrect.

The only Support souls (As defined by Trion) are Bard and Dominator.
Archon and Justicar are both Dual Role.
Archons have an equal number of points assigned to both DPS and Support
Justicars have an equal number of points assigned to both Tank and Support.

Warriors are the only class that does not have a role with points assigned to Support.

I have read your post repeatedly, and I cannot parse it and glean its meaning.

And Archon is a single soul. You can put 51 points into it. What do you mean by equal points in DPS & Support.

And all Callings have Souls that are "labeled" as Support. Warriors are the only Class that cannot queue as Support for T2s. They are one of two Callings that don't fulfill a Support Role in Raid.

I just don't get your use of "points assigned".

[Nightreaver]

And all Callings have Souls that are "labeled" as Support

Log on to any class archetype and then look at the tool tip for each role. At the top of the tooltip you will see how Trion has defined that role. Bard and Dominator are the only roles defined (labeled) by Trion as "Support" roles.

I have read your post repeatedly, and I cannot parse it and glean its meaning.
And Archon is a single soul. You can put 51 points into it. What do you mean by equal points in DPS & Support.
And all Callings have Souls that are "labeled" as Support. Warriors are the only Class that cannot queue as Support for T2s.

True, Warriors are the only archetype that cannot queue for Support because they are the only archetype that you can not invest points into Support.
Admittedly, it is confusing.
True, both Archons and Justicars are single Souls.


An Archon is defined by Trion in the Tooltip as Offensive (DPS).
If you put 51 points into Archon it will remain flagged as DPS.
A Justicar is defined by Trion in the Tooltip as Defensive (Tank).
If you put 51 points into Justicar it will remain flagged as Tank.
They both however have dual roles.
In addition to their primary role they both have an equal number of points assigned as Support….
for the purpose of setting the role flag and determining eligibility to queue for Support


For the purpose of defining eligibility to queue for a role you need a minimum of 10 points spent in that role. Those points can come from either a single role or points spent in a combination of roles.
i.e 10 Points in Pyro = 10 DPS points. 5 points in Elementalist + 5 points in Necro = 10 DPS points.
Archons and Justicars work a little different.
10 points in Justicar = 10 points in Tank and 10 points in Support
10 points in Archon - 10 points in DPS and 10 points in Support
This DOESN'T mean you have 20 points in your soul, the other 10 points are only used for purpose of defining eligibility to queue for Support and to set your role flag.

Flagging gets even more complicated
The role flag is determined by the role with the highest number of points.
If I have a 20 points in Pyro and 10 points Dominator then I am flagged as DPS
If I have 20 points in Dominator and 10 points in Pyro then I am flagged as Support.

And here's where it gets fun.
If I have 10 points in Archon, I am flagged as DPS.
If I have 10 points in Archon + 1 point in Dom then I am flagged as Support
So if Archon is DPS then why am I flagged as Support with only 1 point invested into Support.
Here's why.
(Archon 10 points DPS + 10 points Support) + (Dom 1 point Support) = 10 points DPS, 11 points Support
It's not because I have a point invested into the Dom role, it's because I have more points invested into Support than DPS.

If I have 10 points Archon + 1 point in Dom + 1 point Pyro I am flagged as DPS
(Archon 10 points DPS + 10 points Support) + (Dom 1 point Support) + (Pyro 1 point DPS) = 11 points DPS, 11 points Support. Archon is defined as DPS so DPS wins in a tie.

The only way Archon can be flagged as Support is by combining it with another Soul with points invested into Support.

Justicar works the same way.
And like Archon, the only way Justicar can flag as Support is by combining it with another Soul with points invested into Support.
The problem with Justicar is that there is no other Cleric Support role.
So since Justicar Tank points = Support points and Tank role wins in a tie it will never be flagged as Support.

I hope this helps.

[Joldor]

This is how most clerics think of Justicar btw. Support tank role. And no I am not making that up.

I take it you've talked to almost every person that plays a cleric then? I don't know a single person that views Justicar as a "support" tank. Your either a tank or a support

[Marikhen]

the ONLY support souls in the game are archon and bard, anything else is just semantics

Those semantics let clerics queue for Support with at least one role that's a tank build and let mages queue for Support with Chloromancer-heavy builds. Those semantics also got Dominator labeled as a Support soul.

It's amazing how useful semantics can be as well as how much they can affect the world around us.

The only way you can queue for Support is with points spent in Support. Clerics are no exception, they are able to queue for Support by putting in Justicar..... as Support.

All other things aside that in and of itself is, to me, a problem. There isn't really a lot in the Justicar past 11 points in Justicar if you want to "Support" a party. Really about the only thing is to get 3/3 Vengeful Justice to max out EJ's targets if you plan to use that as your primary DPS/HPS tool as well as get Righteous Mandate and Doctrine of Salvation for tank (or healer) healing. Sentinel or Inquisitor would be much more suited to having secondary Support values than Justicar if only because it's more justifiable sinking 22 points into either soul for Support than it is Justicar.

As things stand making Justicar the Support-capable soul is more or less just a joke since the requirement can be met with a single tanking role. To a degree that's circumventing Trion's mechanics, and worse than that players can, and do, do it is the fact that it doesn't make sense to not do it.

Justicar works the same way.
And like Archon, the only way Justicar can flag as Support is by combining it with another Soul with points invested into Support.
The problem with Justicar is that there is no other Cleric Support role.
So since Justicar Tank points = Support points and Tank role wins in a tie it will never be flagged as Support.

I hope this helps.

So what other souls do clerics have that provide "support points?" Based on what you've said I probably shouldn't be able to queue for Support at all with my cleric. Her tanking build has 38 points in Justicar, but 10 in Cabalist and the rest in Shaman. Her "Support" role is 18Ju/27In/21Se so unless Inquisitor or Sentinel provide those "support points" that one doesn't count either.

[Nightreaver]

As things stand making Justicar the Support-capable soul is more or less just a joke since the requirement can be met with a single tanking role. To a degree that's circumventing Trion's mechanics, and worse than that players can, and do, do it is the fact that it doesn't make sense to not do it.

Being able to queue as Support with a Justicar Soul isn't circumventing Trion's mechanics; those are Trion's mechanics. It works exactly as the other Souls with dual roles. The requirement for Support cannot be met with a single Tanking role, both Rogue and Warrior Tank roles are proof of that. Justicar makes the requirement because it has two roles, Tank and Support.

So what other souls do clerics have that provide "support points?" Based on what you've said I probably shouldn't be able to queue for Support at all with my cleric. Her tanking build has 38 points in Justicar, but 10 in Cabalist and the rest in Shaman. Her "Support" role is 18Ju/27In/21Se so unless Inquisitor or Sentinel provide those "support points" that one doesn't count either.

I think I got you confused with Flags and LFG queue.
An archetype only needs one Soul with points allocated in Support to queue for LFG
In your example with 38 points in Justicar, 10 in Cabalist and 18 in Shaman you should be able to queue for LFG as Support and Tank, but will be flagged as Tank. ( 10 points DPS, 38 Points Support, 38 points Tank and 18 points Healer).
Your other spec 18 Justicar/ 27 Inq /21 Sent you should only be able to queue as DPS and be flagged as DPS. (18 Support, 18 Tank, 27 DPS and 21 Heal) I think you need a third of your points invested in a role to queue for LFG as that role so you would be one point short in Sent of being able to queue as Heal and 4 points short in Just to queue as either Tank or Support.

When I refer to "flags" I am talking about the icon in your character portrait or in the raid frames that defines what role you are in (DPS, Heal, Support or Tank)
The only Soul that Clerics have with points allocated to Support is Justicar which is a Soul with dual roles.
There are 3 Dual Role Souls that I know of in Rift.
One is DPS/Support
The second is Tank/Support
And the third one is Heal/Support
All 3 have Support as the 2nd role.
All 3 are flagged as their first role.
The only way a Soul with dual roles can be flagged as Support is with points spent in an additional Soul that contains Support.
Since Clerics do not have a second Soul with points allocated to Support they will never be flagged as Support.

[Malark]

Well in all honesty I can't say I understand what Trions actual intent was/is.

The fact of the matter is that both Mages and Rogues have Support as their third role and when Warriors did have a third role it was Support as well. So to me, in respect to Class balance, it seems that it would make the most sense that Trions intent for third role for Cleric would also be Support.

Clerics want us to ignore what players say and accept that it is Trions intent that Justicars are Tank because the tool tip has defined it as so.
But at the same time they want us to ignore that Trion has defined Archon as DPS in the tooltip and accept that it is Trions intent that Archon is Support because players say so.

The fact of the matter is that Justicar is no more a Tank role than Archon is a DPS role.
The fact of the matter is that Justicar is just as much a Support role as Archon.
The fact of the matter is that unlike most other Souls, both Archon and Justicar Souls have dual roles..

What ? I mean seriously, what the hell ?