Role Imbalance in Callings

[Undrsiege]

This ain't over. Hopefully the developers will think about what they are doing in the next few weeks and consider the impact to other classes.

These changes "HAVE" already been tested in the new 20 man raid and I guess this is what was needed to become viable.... All the tank and "PVP" clerics await these changes.... Be sure to provide some valid feedback to them so your voice can be heard... Good luck...

Why not ask for a healing soul? Oh yeah they already said "NO"...

[Joldor]

The changes will go through
Warriors will still be better tanks than clerics, just not as laughably so
Warriors will still out-dps clerics
Majorin will still cry because clerics can heal
Clerics will still be the ubersauce class played by children that almost everyone rolled to play heals but now want to tank and dps (right Majorin?)
Majorin still wont be happy until warriors get their full heal role (which i'm sure he'll want to be above clerics/mages) and a full support role (which he'll also want to be above bards/archons)

Did I miss anything?

You still haven't provided any logical explanation as to how warriors can be improved. Just that you are unhappy with warriors, clerics are all played by kids, and everyone but you is wrong. Pleas everyone, stop feeding the troll. Majorin, we know how you feel. Time to start coming up with ideas for your class instead of putting everyone down and telling everyone how dumb they are. Until then just stop posting, please

[Galibier]

I completely support the OP's point. When I object to threads that appear similar is when they instead engage in a negative argument and use the lack of the third soul as justification for maintanence of superiority in a specific role. There are even people who have said in effect "I rolled a warrior because they were the best tank AND I don't want a third role because it's lack is the justification for said superiority."

Warriors should get a third role. The most logical to be transitioned is Warlord because it already is a strong support option. I think the only issue that needs to be over come, and what may well be causing the devs to be slow on the issue are players. We have all seen em. Players who do not see themselves as a warrior or a rogue but rather as a reaver or marksman. They complain that another soul in their own calling is better at a role than theirs. They sometimes go so far as to ask for a soul they don't like in their calling to be nerfed, when doing so would actually hurt the calling as a whole.

Those who do not see themselves as a Warrior tank or dps but rather as. Warlord tank or Beatmaster dps (only examples) would cry to HIGH heaven if the role of that soul was suddenly altered to support, arguably the least respected role (though also arguably one of the most important at end game.)

[Pataraga]

The changes will go through
Warriors will still be better tanks than clerics, just not as laughably so
Warriors will still out-dps clerics
Majorin will still cry because clerics can heal
Clerics will still be the ubersauce class played by children that almost everyone rolled to play heals but now want to tank and dps (right Majorin?)
Majorin still wont be happy until warriors get their full heal role (which i'm sure he'll want to be above clerics/mages) and a full support role (which he'll also want to be above bards/archons)

Did I miss anything?

You still haven't provided any logical explanation as to how warriors can be improved. Just that you are unhappy with warriors, clerics are all played by kids, and everyone but you is wrong. Pleas everyone, stop feeding the troll. Majorin, we know how you feel. Time to start coming up with ideas for your class instead of putting everyone down and telling everyone how dumb they are. Until then just stop posting, please

Oh god you just made my day. Majorin will always complain if warriors cant have more hp, more mit, better healing, more dps, better support, more utility, and better flexibility than all other classes. But to end this thread really really well. Rogues are at the bottom of almost every thing except for support. We dont have the highest dps, we have laughable tanking at best, and we dont have a healing spec at all. So yeah warriors keep the qq up that you are the best tanks and dps in the game. But keep complaining you cant support, heal, or ranged dps. Also MM is WAY far behind Bladedancer or Sinstalker (both melee builds) so if you go MM you are gimping your own dps. Just like warriors I guess *scratches head*

[Aasterinian]

I agree that Warriors should have Support role. As the only archetype without a third role I just cannot fathom why this has not been done.
I'll support Warriors getting a Ranged DPS soul as long as Mages (the only calling in the game that does not have a melee range DPS soul) gets a role with melee range abilities. Not talking about physical melee attacks, just Caster abilities that are effective only within melee range.
Agree with this completely.
Bards (Rogue) are Support whose focus is on Heal Support.
Archons (Mage) are Support whose focus is on DPS Support
The only Primary role that doesn't have a role designed to support it is Tank.
So maybe a Support role (Warrior) whose focus is on Tank Support.
I originally thought that was the intent of Justicar but if it is not then maybe a Warrior role could fill that void. Maybe buffs that increase physical mitigation, magical mitigation, threat control, or better AOE threat control for Offtanking adds. I'm sure Warriors would have much better ideas for a Support role that increases Tanking effectiveness without competing with other Support roles.



Ok, fine, let Warriors be the goto choice for tanking progressive encounters.
Along ith Cwlerics being the goto choice for Healing progressive encounters.
As long as Mages and Rogues are then the goto choices for DPS in progressive encounters.

@ the underlined part:
Why the hell would you EVER want to melee as a mage? just the thought of it is absurd, point in case while not a mage still a typical caster dps from range in my guild tried a couple fights as a melee cleric once the role was made viable and even she said F that and went back to being a caster...that made the warriors she was running with laugh at her (myself among em) and say "must be nice to have the choice"...guess the argument of "must be nice to have the choice" applies here as well however, you really have no idea what you are asking for with that one...melee mages would not enjoy that option trust me.

[Majorin]

``

The changes will go through
Warriors will still be better tanks than clerics, just not as laughably so
Warriors will still out-dps clerics
Majorin will still cry because clerics can heal
Clerics will still be the ubersauce class played by children that almost everyone rolled to play heals but now want to tank and dps (right Majorin?)
Majorin still wont be happy until warriors get their full heal role (which i'm sure he'll want to be above clerics/mages) and a full support role (which he'll also want to be above bards/archons)

Did I miss anything?

You still haven't provided any logical explanation as to how warriors can be improved. Just that you are unhappy with warriors, clerics are all played by kids, and everyone but you is wrong. Pleas everyone, stop feeding the troll. Majorin, we know how you feel. Time to start coming up with ideas for your class instead of putting everyone down and telling everyone how dumb they are. Until then just stop posting, please

No Jolodor. I do not advocate warriors being the best at everything. I honestly believe Clerics should be the best healers and I disagree with the nerfs to warden being proposed by the developers because a good focus fire team that uses CC can kill anything right now. I believe every class should bring a tangible strenth to the table. I do not believe one class that can assume the basic and main three roles in this game should be on par with every other class in the game that is more limited in roles.

What I am saying is the developers need to ensure that parity of roles also requires parity in options. That is the bottom line. You cannot change this fact by attacking me. I have never once stated in any thread that clerics should get a nerf to healing. I stated that if parity is the goal then warriors need a heal soul. If clerics get parity with warriors on tanking in dps then it seems fair that the class should get a nerf to healing.

So you are wrong. Yet again. Attack me all you want but the buff to cleric tanking is a mistake when you consider warriors are so limited in choices in this game. When I talk to others in the game in live they basically express the same viewpoint.

Sorry man. But the developers plan is not going to sit well with the players. I am speaking from experience.

Give me a break. The concepts I have proposed are not self-serving or intended to prop up my own class at the expense of others. It is to point out that not everyone is being treated fairly and the devs need to deal with this fact going forward.

[Undrsiege]

``

No Jolodor. I do not advocate warriors being the best at everything. I honestly believe Clerics should be the best healers and I disagree with the nerfs to warden being proposed by the developers because a good focus fire team that uses CC can kill anything right now. I believe every class should bring a tangible strenth to the table. I do not believe one class that can assume the basic and main three roles in this game should be on par with every other class in the game that is more limited in roles.

What I am saying is the developers need to ensure that parity of roles also requires parity in options. That is the bottom line. You cannot change this fact by attacking me. I have never once stated in any thread that clerics should get a nerf to healing. I stated that if parity is the goal then warriors need a heal soul. If clerics get parity with warriors on tanking in dps then it seems fair that the class should get a nerf to healing.

So you are wrong. Yet again. Attack me all you want but the buff to cleric tanking is a mistake when you consider warriors are so limited in choices in this game. When I talk to others in the game in live they basically express the same viewpoint.

Sorry man. But the developers plan is not going to sit well with the players. I am speaking from experience.

Give me a break. The concepts I have proposed are not self-serving or intended to prop up my own class at the expense of others. It is to point out that not everyone is being treated fairly and the devs need to deal with this fact going forward.

Last I checked there are "WAY" more clerics and rogues than warriors. Clerics and Rogues wanting semi balanced viable tanking over what a warrior calling wants, now who do you think the Trion business plan will reflect here?

SUBS speak and when you have 3 to 4 times more wanting something over the other, who do you think is gonna pay more of the bills? So no matter what you or any warrior wants it is all about the money.

That is fact and cannot be disputed.

[Majorin]

Last I checked there are "WAY" more clerics and rogues than warriors. Clerics and Rogues wanting semi balanced viable tanking over what a warrior calling wants, now who do you think the Trion business plan will reflect here?

SUBS speak and when you have 3 to 4 times more wanting something over the other who do you think is gonna pay more of the bills? So no matter what you or any warrior wants it is all about the money.

That is fact and cannot be disputed.

Neither you are I have statistics that support that claim. It would be foolish to have class balance design based solely on who plays the most popular class. Many times the most popular class is the most overpowered or FOTM. So everyone rolls a clerics or rogue? How does that promote a good long-term game going forward. I honestly believe you do not want a scenario like this....

I do know a lot of different people play all the different classes.

[Undrsiege]

Neither you are I have statistics that support that claim. It would be foolish to have class balance design based solely on who plays the most popular class. Many times the most popular class is the most overpowered or FOTM. So everyone rolls a clerics or rogue? How does that promote a good long-term game going forward. I honestly believe you do not want a scenario like this....

I do know a lot of different people play all the different classes.

Instead of wasting energy trying to stop something that is already tested and ready to go Live you should be contributing to your class redesign which is currently still under review and not finished like the cleric changes.....

The core cleric tanking changes for 1.8 are near final at this point in time.

I believe Zin has a minor tweak after doing additional research on the actual hit point difference between the classes. Watch for patch notes on that.

~Daglar
Lead Game Designer: Rift

[Nightreaver]

Originally Posted by Nightreaver
I agree that Warriors should have Support role. As the only archetype without a third role I just cannot fathom why this has not been done.
I'll support Warriors getting a Ranged DPS soul as long as Mages (the only calling in the game that does not have a melee range DPS soul) gets a role with melee range abilities. Not talking about physical melee attacks, just Caster abilities that are effective only within melee range.

@ the underlined part:
Why the hell would you EVER want to melee as a mage? just the thought of it is absurd.

If you're going to take the time to respond then please at least take the time to read what you are responding to. Let me repeat what you already quoted

Originally Posted by Nightreaver
Not talking about physical melee attacks, just Caster abilities that are effective only within melee range.

point in case while not a mage still a typical caster dps from range in my guild tried a couple fights as a melee cleric once the role was made viable and even she said F that and went back to being a caster...

Ahhh, so based on that example are you proposing that Trion does away Cleric Tanking as well? I mean if she didn't like melee DPS then I would say it's a safe bet she doesn't care for tanking as well. I trust you also feel that they should do away with Cleric melee DPS as well since you already know they would not enjoy that option.

you really have no idea what you are asking for with that one...melee mages would not enjoy that option trust me

Actually, I think you have it backwards and you are the one that has no idea.
Just as you found ONE person that prefers the traditional role of Ranged Cleric heals and dislikes being within melee, I am sure there are a great many others that actually enjoy the addition of both melee DPS and Tank roles. As for me personally, I played a HoX in Age in Conan which actually was a Caster whose DPS came from melee range and included melee DPS, it remains as one of my all time favorite rolls. You don't know me so please don't assume you know what I would or wouldn't like.

The point of my suggestion is this; Melee classes (essentially everyone BUT Mage) have stated time and time again that Ranged DPS should never out DPS melee DPS.
That's fine, I can accept that.
But you need to acknowledge that there are times when even Casters are caught within melee range.
The choice to go Ranged isn't always available.
If not the Boss then at least the adds or even during Trash encounters.
So if Warriors and Rogues and Clerics want to make the case that melee range DPS should always be higher than Ranged DPS then allow all classes (including Mages) the ability to do so.
This could be done NOT through actual melee DPS but through cast abilities that are only effective within melee range. The new Tera MMO does this by giving Casters cast abilities that are only effective within melee range and I think it works real well.

[Gray]

Agree with Jerwel.

We may not have expected Warriors to have support and range at launch, but we damn sure didn't expect Warriors to simply suck and be a worse option than every other Calling. There shouldn't be a situation where Rogues and Clerics can do everything Warriors can do, but Warriors can only do half the things Clerics and Rogues can do. That's horrible game design.

That's like if Dungeons and Dragons launched with two classes: Wizard and Crappy Wizard. "Wizard" is for people who want the full range of wizard abilities, and "Crappy Wizard" is a class for people who only want half the skills of the real Wizard.

Why would anyone design a game that way?

And in other mmos clerics dps and tanking sucked balls. Whats your point? Change wl to a support soul, play up the group protection and heals aspect of pally (make it kind of a warrior flavored justi) add more things to do for vk (spell shields spell voids spell reflects get creative) and give reavers more interesting effects with dots and the like. Buff the ranged dps so that we can at least be COMPETITIVE NOT EQUAL in an all ranged encounter so we dont get benched.

ehrr.. my answer was to THAT SPECIFIC post. I already said give warriors a range soul and buff warlords into a proper support soul.

oh, and DND is a VERY bad example, especially from a warrior's standpoint. ask anyone who played it about wizard/fighter....

[Gray]

Why do they need an argument at all? This is pretty much a dead issue as the changes are done and finished testing according to DEV.

it's easier and faster to tune some numbers (in this case cleric tank) than completely redesign a whole soul (RB & warlord). and trion's design intentions play a major part in that as well - do they even WANT to redesign the souls or "fix" the others first? devtime/money is limited.

[Majorin]

it's easier and faster to tune some numbers (in this case cleric tank) than completely redesign a whole soul (RB & warlord). and trion's design intentions play a major part in that as well - do they even WANT to redesign the souls or "fix" the others first? devtime/money is limited.

I wish Trion would state there intention. Not some off quotes from developers in different interviews. We need a post on the forums from the lead developer of about where they think class balance should be in this game. Also, we need request our PA be tied to account so when all the warriors re-roll clerics they don't have to do it again.

Everyone is re-rolling cleric. LAWL

[Marikhen]

Clerics can queue as "support" but for all intents and purposes their "Support" is really a subset of "Healer" in the form of group heals and dps.

While that is essentially accurate it glosses over Spiritual Deficiency, Clinging Spirit, Perseverence (with or without Determination), Healer's Covenant, Protect the Flock, Empowering Light, Luminous Gaze, Quietus, Spiritual Protection, Purge, Trepidation, Impede, Excommunicate, and Breath of Light.

Some of it is redundant, some of it is only situationally useful, but it's still there. A "proper" build can bring enough in the way of buffs, debuffs, CC, cleanses, and the purge to be quite useful in 5-mans, especially PUGs, even though they're not so useful in raids.

/shrugs. Frankly I don't care what people use for "Support" so long as they don't get people killed or hold the group back to the point that we wipe.

[Galibier]

Come on lets be honest here, queuing as support is a boondogle left over from wgen a t2 could actually be a challenge for a t1 geared group. If you want to start pointing to support abilities I could pull out just as many abilities from reaver, warlord and void knight and make the same argument you just did for warriors, the only difference being that the warrior can not queue for what is not an obsolete queuing obtion that should really be eliminated imo.