[DISCUSSION] Make Planar Attunement Experience Universal to Account

[Anuhart]

You do realize this thread is on the PTS forum right? I didn't look at the creation date but I assumed it was due to the (at the time) imminent release of T3 PA.

So these 'arm chair devs' you are referring to are actually responding and giving feedback to changes on the PTS. I forgot what the purpose of this forum was for. Oh yeah. To respond and give feedback to changes on the PTR. Is your next stop the general forum to complain all the posts are about Rift?

For something that you don't even think is an issue you are certainly devoting a lot of time having to tell people why it's not an issue. Have more respect for your own time, I'm starting to worry about your self esteem. I know some good people who help people deal with that every day.

I think you assume wrong.

[Thorrand]

it's not like I already explained most of it. but you only seem to care about what you like to read, which does not mean it does not exist. for example: perception & rift community:
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ainst-pas.html
or all that ruckus about a fluff item and getting it one week earlier:
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ounts-out.html

Maybe you should go back and read that first thread again. I have obviously read it as I replied quite a few times in it.

The second thread has nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

I highly doubt that guilds will be requiring an amount of PA if after a while getting one level of PA will take a week+ of grinding (hence why I said if that model was used it would only make sense for it to be account wide) but you are using perception as a red herring to the issue I have, and which you are replying to. That issue is that the longer the system stays as it is now the less friendly it becomes to new characters and most definitely new players.

I don't think you're understanding what I suggested at all. Complaints about it would be akin to "It's not fair that level 49-50 takes me longer than level 1-2 did. Why are you supporting keeping the model as it is? Do you honestly not see an issue with the current model or are you just playing devil's advocate?

[Thorrand]

I think you assume wrong.

Doesn't matter. It's why I came here and discussed it in this thread. The origins are irrelevant.

[Thorrand]

as someone who witnessed the IA grind in lotro, let me tell you: it's not fun)

I did as well. Albeit not to an extreme. lotro I played more for the journey than any end game grind. Rift's journey doesn't begin until you hit 50, the first 49 levels are essentially a long tutorial on how to use your skills at 50

[Gray]

Maybe you should go back and read that first thread again. I have obviously read it as I replied quite a few times in it.

yet the issues op has would be the same even with your curved PA exp. that's why I linked it.

The second thread has nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

it shows that people will make a big deal out of the smallest things. that was a fluff item one weak earlier. imagine what it will look like if it's more severe.

I highly doubt that guilds will be requiring an amount of PA if after a while getting one level of PA will take a week+ of grinding (hence why I said if that model was used it would only make sense for it to be account wide) but you are using perception as a red herring to the issue I have, and which you are replying to. That issue is that the longer the system stays as it is now the less friendly it becomes to new characters and most definitely new players.

people will always put an ridiculous requirement on things, that won't change. if PA is account wide or not, a fresh 50 will see what people are looking for, then check his PA tab and sees he has a more or less long grind ahead of him. even IF it's faster with an xp curve early on, a new player will see his number compared to the number people are looking for and go "eff that".
I point out perception because that's one of the biggest issues right now. people see PA as something they have to grind (they don't), people think they need PA for specific content (they don't), people think PA keeps them from playing alts (it doesn't).
perception is an issue every system will have, even if it's perfect on paper.

I don't think you're understanding what I suggested at all. Complaints about it would be akin to "It's not fair that level 49-50 takes me longer than level 1-2 did. Why are you supporting keeping the model as it is? Do you honestly not see an issue with the current model or are you just playing devil's advocate?

I never said the system is perfect or there aren't any issues with it. my point is, there isn't a system without issues, and why change the system if the issues stay the same? I'm not saying we should just accept the status quo and go okay.jpg, but if we discuss possible changes, we have to consider the outcome and if it really is an improvement (else any change is just a waste of time/money).
another thing is, most issues people have right now will fix itself sooner or later (more people hit the cap, everybody is on equal footing again) or can be dealt with when there really is an issue (6 months from now when they release tier 8 and the power creep/progress speed gets out of hand). so it's more a question of pacing than fixing.

I did as well. Albeit not to an extreme. lotro I played more for the journey than any end game grind. Rift's journey doesn't begin until you hit 50, the first 49 levels are essentially a long tutorial on how to use your skills at 50

same for lotro, but if you wanted the best or even an improvement for your legendary item, it was totally random in their first version. getting bent over by the RNG every possible upgrade isn't my idea of fun...

[Mayi]

Good idea, I have an alt cleric that I never play... reason being just the thought of farming for PAs and faction again makes me shudder. No one will want to do it again... if they're sane. The PAs and faction is more a barrier to replayability rather then a bonus.

[Anuhart]

Off topic but on the subject of LotRO, I had a burg who ID'd a 65 2A with 4 A's, then got 2A's to pick from on all 3 reforges.

Ended up with 7 A's of course but never even saw a B.

That was some freaky stuff.

/As you were.

[Anuhart]

Good idea, I have an alt cleric that I never play... reason being just the thought of farming for PAs and faction again makes me shudder. No one will want to do it again... if they're sane. The PAs and faction is more a barrier to replayability rather then a bonus.

Meh, ignore faction if you don't like it.

As for the PA for your cleric, I'll let you into a secret.

You get PA while playing the cleric.

It's all becoming clear now why some people are put off, they actually think you have to do a long grind before you can play the character.

[Elco]

This post makes too much sense! I know this issue comes up frequently in our guild. We would love to play our alts, but we feel like we are gimping our mains with PA.

I think if account wide PA were implemented, it would bring much joy to the masses.

[nocks]

This post makes too much sense! I know this issue comes up frequently in our guild. We would love to play our alts, but we feel like we are gimping our mains with PA.

I think if account wide PA were implemented, it would bring much joy to the masses.

But... if the problem, in your eyes, is that other characters have more PA than your alts and so you can't play them....

won't that problem just be magnified if this change were real? Now won't that guy in your Guild with maxed PA... also have 3 alts with more PA than you, now?

So.. if all you do is play your Cleric main .. and you still don't have max PA... well, now that guy in your guild who just grinds all day has the best Cleric, the best Rogue, the best Warrior, the best Mage... and he barely even has to play those alts, and he still has way more PA than you...

[Thorrand]

yet the issues op has would be the same even with your curved PA exp. that's why I linked it.

I thought we already covered the fact that you can't please everyone. Sorry to the OP of that thread and all, but most of his issues are par for the course of MMO's

it shows that people will make a big deal out of the smallest things. that was a fluff item one weak earlier. imagine what it will look like if it's more severe.

Week (sorry ), and if you don't think this issue will get more severe over time without changes then I don't think you're grasping what the issues actually are, or just attempting to ignore them.

people will always put an ridiculous requirement on things, that won't change. if PA is account wide or not, a fresh 50 will see what people are looking for, then check his PA tab and sees he has a more or less long grind ahead of him. even IF it's faster with an xp curve early on, a new player will see his number compared to the number people are looking for and go "eff that".
I point out perception because that's one of the biggest issues right now. people see PA as something they have to grind (they don't), people think they need PA for specific content (they don't), people think PA keeps them from playing alts (it doesn't).
perception is an issue every system will have, even if it's perfect on paper.

That is akin to saying a level one will look at someone who is level 50 and realize that it will take effort to get there and quit. The curve would mean he would be able to catch up without everyone being capped and making the system obsolete.

I never said the system is perfect or there aren't any issues with it. my point is, there isn't a system without issues, and why change the system if the issues stay the same? I'm not saying we should just accept the status quo and go okay.jpg, but if we discuss possible changes, we have to consider the outcome and if it really is an improvement (else any change is just a waste of time/money).
another thing is, most issues people have right now will fix itself sooner or later (more people hit the cap, everybody is on equal footing again) or can be dealt with when there really is an issue (6 months from now when they release tier 8 and the power creep/progress speed gets out of hand). so it's more a question of pacing than fixing.

Then you have the issue of the PA system becoming obsolete, this is one of the things I'm trying to avoid having happen. Personally I'd prefer if the system were changed while still in it's infancy rather than months down the road. It makes more sense to fix something before it becomes a huge issue as opposed to waited for the kettle to boil.

same for lotro, but if you wanted the best or even an improvement for your legendary item, it was totally random in their first version. getting bent over by the RNG every possible upgrade isn't my idea of fun...

A lot more fun then the pay2win strategy adopted by Turbine. There is a reason I no longer play Lotro... after scrolls of delving were only obtainable in the store, and the horror show that was RoI I lost whatever hope I had for turbine.

I'm not trying to make it so that existing players don't have an advantage over newer players, that's part of what makes MMO's what they are. There are always advantages to playing longer than others. I just don't see the sense in a static system where six months down the road a new player will have to invest every second of free time he has to stand a chance at having the same stats as an existing character. Hopefully we all want new players joining Rift...

[Thorrand]

same for lotro, but if you wanted the best or even an improvement for your legendary item, it was totally random in their first version. getting bent over by the RNG every possible upgrade isn't my idea of fun...

Sorry but I will have to disagree, It's absolutely no fault of Trion's because they are creating this entire mythos from scratch while games like WoW and Lotro already had plenty of reference material to pull from. Following just the Epic book quests in Lotro took more time than 1-50 does in Rift. Mind you that does include the game's expansions (but not any other quests) and a large part of that is travel time if you don't have the rep for fast travel.

[Gray]

I thought we already covered the fact that you can't please everyone. Sorry to the OP of that thread and all, but most of his issues are par for the course of MMO's

yeah, that's why I don't understand PA is such a big deal, it's just another system of progression, and not even the worst. it will always be the case that people with more time progress faster/further, with or without PA *shrug*

Week (sorry ), and if you don't think this issue will get more severe over time without changes then I don't think you're grasping what the issues actually are, or just attempting to ignore them.

That is akin to saying a level one will look at someone who is level 50 and realize that it will take effort to get there and quit. The curve would mean he would be able to catch up without everyone being capped and making the system obsolete.

Then you have the issue of the PA system becoming obsolete, this is one of the things I'm trying to avoid having happen. Personally I'd prefer if the system were changed while still in it's infancy rather than months down the road. It makes more sense to fix something before it becomes a huge issue as opposed to waited for the kettle to boil.

you could nerf the lower levels, or rather reduce the PA needed per hex on tier 1 - or increase the gain while making other areas of the game more worthwhile (like the EI IAs on the PTS). the problem with a curve is, given the system is open ended - you end up with an incredible grind at some point.
I guess there are already people that would like to play rift but don't want to level again when they have a lvl85 in tier whatever'sthemostrecent. ;)

most issues will sort itself out over time because people are capped, get better gear (thus farm xp faster) or trion introduces different ways to get PA exp items faster so people progress faster. the system itself is fine, other factors will change over time anyway which change the progression.

It might also be that there will never be a tier 4, to avoid problems like that and power creep especially. if their projections show an average player would need lets say 6 months to max PA, it means an average player will have a progression for 6 months (and they can then see to introduce a new system or extend PA at the point a certain percentage of the players is capped). they want people to feel like they're progressing NOW, they can always drop an expansion with higher levelcap when they think the time is right. we simply don't know they what intended for PA after tier 3 and the majority is capped.

and as nocks said, you'll get PA for everything you do. once you get to HK, you will have plenty of PA, there's no way around it. the problem here, are again, the people, who think to have to grind NOW before they do anything else.

funny but fitting anecdote from lotro: you could buy your skill book for a class skill at lvl39, and then farm 8 pages which were random drops from lvl41+ mobs. the intention was that people level normally and get the pages while getting to 50. but what did they actually do? people bough the book at 39, and then went straight farming for the pages - completely stopping questing and anything else. ofc after hours of killing mobs for a random drop, they complained what an annoying grind it is.

A lot more fun then the pay2win strategy adopted by Turbine. There is a reason I no longer play Lotro... after scrolls of delving were only obtainable in the store, and the horror show that was RoI I lost whatever hope I had for turbine.

I think I made it to 67, after that I was pretty bored. having a class (guardian) that played and felt as gimped as released in 07 didn't improve it. and people whine about "lazy" class devs in rift....

I just don't see the sense in a static system where six months down the road a new player will have to invest every second of free time he has to stand a chance at having the same stats as an existing character. Hopefully we all want new players joining Rift...

I think a static system is easier to maintain, or at least easier to adjust over to course of time. like I said, if they see in 6 month the majority is capped, and tier 3 is the max, that new player will have a progression for 6 month - but with better gear from the start and probably a faster pa exp gain via drops. it all comes down to if he thinks he has to grind it or it's just a bonus for doing other stuff in the game...
over time stuff gets nerfed anyway, leveling till 25 is faster and easier than it was a year ago. same with gearing up. PA will probably get the same treatment sooner or later - depending what their design intention are of course.

[Gray]

Sorry but I will have to disagree, It's absolutely no fault of Trion's because they are creating this entire mythos from scratch while games like WoW and Lotro already had plenty of reference material to pull from. Following just the Epic book quests in Lotro took more time than 1-50 does in Rift. Mind you that does include the game's expansions (but not any other quests) and a large part of that is travel time if you don't have the rep for fast travel.

I meant sooner or later you reach the levelcap and the usual grind begins. in lotro you probably have some quests open you can do for the story, but besides that it's the usual instance grind for gear (or fall asleep in skirmishes ; ) ).

[Thorrand]

yeah, that's why I don't understand PA is such a big deal, it's just another system of progression, and not even the worst. it will always be the case that people with more time progress faster/further, with or without PA *shrug*

you could nerf the lower levels, or rather reduce the PA needed per hex on tier 1 - or increase the gain while making other areas of the game more worthwhile (like the EI IAs on the PTS). the problem with a curve is, given the system is open ended - you end up with an incredible grind at some point.
I guess there are already people that would like to play rift but don't want to level again when they have a lvl85 in tier whatever'sthemostrecent. ;)

I'm not saying my idea is the only way to go, I'm all for any options at all. My only reason for being so concerned with this system is the assumptions that we won't have a level increase expansion (at least for a long time) and having only PA to advance besides the usual raid gear grind.

most issues will sort itself out over time because people are capped, get better gear (thus farm xp faster) or trion introduces different ways to get PA exp items faster so people progress faster. the system itself is fine, other factors will change over time anyway which change the progression.
It might also be that there will never be a tier 4, to avoid problems like that and power creep especially. if their projections show an average player would need lets say 6 months to max PA, it means an average player will have a progression for 6 months (and they can then see to introduce a new system or extend PA at the point a certain percentage of the players is capped). they want people to feel like they're progressing NOW, they can always drop an expansion with higher levelcap when they think the time is right. we simply don't know they what intended for PA after tier 3 and the majority is capped.

That's true, although I hope they keep the system in as I love the idea of it. I just think it needs some work if it's going to be a long term thing. I hope it doesn't end at three tiers for all the effort people (not me. I don't go out of my way or grind for it) are putting into it. I always hate when expansions come and basically negates everything you've done previously and I hope Trion moves away from that model. They are a great way to get an influx of new players though as everyone basically starts on equal footing again but there has to be a better way.

I think a static system is easier to maintain, or at least easier to adjust over to course of time. like I said, if they see in 6 month the majority is capped, and tier 3 is the max, that new player will have a progression for 6 month - but with better gear from the start and probably a faster pa exp gain via drops. it all comes down to if he thinks he has to grind it or it's just a bonus for doing other stuff in the game...
over time stuff gets nerfed anyway, leveling till 25 is faster and easier than it was a year ago. same with gearing up. PA will probably get the same treatment sooner or later - depending what their design intention are of course.

This is true but at the same time I'd like to avoid the PA system becoming obsolete, especially that quickly.