[DISCUSSION] Make Planar Attunement Experience Universal to Account

[Gray]

when i raid with my alt, i only bring him into raids where my main is already geared from so i don't actually miss any chances for my main.

wait, at one point you argue that your main is not competitive anymore because of PA when you bring an alt, and in the next example - that gear hasn't the same issues - you argue you would do it with a full decked out char anyway?
you know PA has a cap, right? and you don't even need all tiers maxed, at a certain point (depending on calling) the additional rewards are minimal anyway.
what about the case that your main isn't completely geared?

of course items are BoP, raid gear isn't awarded to those who can grind the longest, you get them from raids, so its all fair in the raiding competition.

achievements are character bound, i have no idea why.... if i killed akylios on one character and then swap to a different character does that mean that i've never killed him? anyways thats an argument for a different thread. why should PA be different? because achievements don't give any advantage to the character who got them unlike PA.

there is that word again "fair" - fairness does not exist in an mmo. some people don't have the time to grind an alt to 50 and equip him raidready. is that "fair"? and the competition only exists in a specific subset of raiders. if you can't or won't grind the PA, why do you raid with people that make it a requirement (because the game itself does not)? in the end it's a people/perception issue.

the point was the whole game is focused on character, not on account. most things you do are for a single character only. to pick up the example from the beginning, why is my XP when I level not awarded to other characters as well? "the xp system keeps me from playing an alt" - sounds familiar?

achievements are not account based for the same reason the rest of the systems aren't - to keep people p(l)ay longer. do I want to do it all over again to get a specific title on another character? definitely not. do I want to level him to 50 first, and then gear him to be an alternative to my main? definitely not.
another thing anuhart already mentioned: the current system is balanced/designed for one character. IF it would be changed to be accountwide, progress/rewards would change as well (so in the in the end it might be even slower than parking a char and use his rested xp - so alts may profit from it, which does not mean much when the whole progress has been nerfed).

don't get me wrong, I'm definitely for accountbased systems (because in the end it's still ME playing), but given the foundations rift is build on... and the work/money it would take to change the system... designing/balancing a rewarding system per character is hard enough, now imagine that in the scope of a whole account. not saying it can't be done, but it will be difficult (and I'm afraid time will be an even bigger part of the equation as before then - ironic in the light why we have this discussion).

[Gray]

It's not a matter of perception. It's what was said vs what you want him to have said. It's not complicated.

isn't that your argument as well? the fun part about pr speech is that you hear what you WANT to hear - until you consider the bigger picture. which I did. have you?

[Thorrand]

"making a system viable to everyone, long term and short"
there might be the perfect system for absolute everybody, yet how it's PERCEIVED is a completely different discussion. PA works fine for what it is supposed to be (offer progression no matter what you do in the game), yet people STILL see it as a barricade. not to mention there is no system for EVERYONE (what I already said several times in several threads), because there are simply too many playstyles at once in the game. you can not please everybody, you should have learned that by now.
so clamoring "imho the current system sucks, I trust trion to make a better one" is just naive - a better one for you? or another demographic? in the end someone will have issues (real or just perceived) and whine about it.

Where did I wanted a system perfect for everyone? If you respond without knowing the meaning of the words you make yourself look foolish. Here I did the groundwork for you:
Viable: practicable; workable
You make op your proponents arguments and counter that instead of what is actually said, that is a flawed and VERY transparent form of debate. 1/10 on the troll scale

I have already suggested a system of increasing the exp needed per level of PA, retroactive even. Sure it will upset those who grinded it out, but as it has already been stated the system was never meant to be accrued like that and they would still be ahead of everyone else. That would let new players advance their PA's quicker upon reaching 50 where the stats invariably mean more than someone in HK relics or ID gear.

You can never please everyone in an MMO, but a system such as I presented would make it so new players would be able to catch up to existing players more easily and bridge the stat gap.

isn't that your argument as well? the fun part about pr speech is that you hear what you WANT to hear - until you consider the bigger picture. which I did. have you?

I'm looking at the big picture. you obviously are not.

[Gray]

I have already suggested a system of increasing the exp needed per level of PA

That would let new players advance their PA's quicker upon reaching 50 where the stats invariably mean more than someone in HK relics or ID gear.

I'm looking at the big picture. you obviously are not.

no, you don't.
the arguments would still be "PA keeps me from playing an alt", "guilds require a certain PA level" "I have to grind PA to feel viable compared to X", "someone with more time can grind more". some a are real issues, some are perceived, just as it is now.

so what does your suggestion actually improve? what would? and I mean not simply changing numbers, but changing the PERCEPTION (a problem which seems you can't even consider).

and how about discussing this objectively, "everybody who disagrees = troll" does not really help your argument. just saying...

[Anuhart]

You know, with all the arm chair devs here coming up with how PA should have been.

If any one of them had been the way it was, they would all have had forum QQ.

What's food for thought though, in all cases a likely proposed solution would have been; 'make PA character only, small incremental stat and utility slow progression which you gain from playing any content you like, while not tuning any content to require it'.

[Thorrand]

no, you don't.
the arguments would still be "PA keeps me from playing an alt", "guilds require a certain PA level" "I have to grind PA to feel viable compared to X", "someone with more time can grind more". some a are real issues, some are perceived, just as it is now.

so what does your suggestion actually improve? what would? and I mean not simply changing numbers, but changing the PERCEPTION (a problem which seems you can't even consider).

and how about discussing this objectively, "everybody who disagrees = troll" does not really help your argument. just saying...

No I don't? What is that even replying to?
The new system would have to be account wide, as for changing peoples perceptions of it I really don't care about that. I'd never join a guild or a raid requiring PA. if people would like to then that is their choice.
I only call people trolls who rely on using devious and underhanded 'debate' tactics to try and make their point. Such as you and Anuhart.

What does my suggestion improve? Allowing a brand new player six months from now to be able to eventually catch up without feeling too overwhelmed. The benefit for existing players is that the system could continue past the tier three, thus allowing everyone to continue advancing the alternate advancement system.

I want something that works in the long time as opposed to a system that will either 1. become obsolete, or 2. Turn new players off the game

[nocks]

I've read most of this thread and I see no reason to make PA experience universal to account. It makes even less sense than the way it is now. So now, because you have more time to grind... even your fresh level 50's with no gear are going to be better than the actual fresh level 50's with no gear who are playing their first characters? And those who have more time to grind more PA would still have higher PA than you, except all their alts would have it too...

Not a good solution.

[Traciatim]

I still think the best solution is to make unspent PA points able to be packaged up in to account bound items at a small cost (some inscribed and planarite or something) so that you can send the levels to other characters. This makes it so that it really doesn't matter if you want to spread it out or stack one character, but no matter what you still have to play the same amount of time total.

[Thorrand]

You know, with all the arm chair devs here coming up with how PA should have been.

If any one of them had been the way it was, they would all have had forum QQ.

What's food for thought though, in all cases a likely proposed solution would have been; 'make PA character only, small incremental stat and utility slow progression which you gain from playing any content you like, while not tuning any content to require it'.

Technical foul on Anuhart. Non sequitur.
Go take ten laps and try again

[nocks]

If your issue is that you can't get as much PA as the Smiths down the street, how is making it account-wide going to help?

"Oh, Jim Smith the Warrior has maxed PA, that's unfair because my Warrior alt doesn't have max PA. Luckily I can still play my Cleric main, his PA is okay.... wait, Jimmy has a Cleric alt too, and now that Cleric alt has higher PA than my Cleric main?!"

How does this solve anything?

[Anuhart]

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Edit @Thorr

[Thorrand]

I don't think that means what you think it means.

It means exactly what I think. That's what an education is for :P

[Sargonnas_KoA]

If this cant be done in a simple way that also avoids abuse then no, planar attunement should not be universal to your account.

PA is still a optional part of playing where I accrue points little by little as I play naturally. I choose whether to play my main or my alt. Its others that have turned PA into a grind or a mandatory part of raiding which was never the intention of PA.

[Thorrand]

You know, with all the arm chair devs here coming up with how PA should have been.

You do realize this thread is on the PTS forum right? I didn't look at the creation date but I assumed it was due to the (at the time) imminent release of T3 PA.

So these 'arm chair devs' you are referring to are actually responding and giving feedback to changes on the PTS. I forgot what the purpose of this forum was for. Oh yeah. To respond and give feedback to changes on the PTR. Is your next stop the general forum to complain all the posts are about Rift?

For something that you don't even think is an issue you are certainly devoting a lot of time having to tell people why it's not an issue. Have more respect for your own time, I'm starting to worry about your self esteem. I know some good people who help people deal with that every day.

[Gray]

N
The new system would have to be account wide, as for changing peoples perceptions of it I really don't care about that.

another thing anuhart already mentioned: the current system is balanced/designed for one character. IF it would be changed to be accountwide, progress/rewards would change as well (so in the in the end it might be even slower than parking a char and use his rested xp - so alts may profit from it, which does not mean much when the whole progress has been nerfed).

it's not like I already explained most of it. but you only seem to care about what you like to read, which does not mean it does not exist. for example: perception & rift community:
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ainst-pas.html
or all that ruckus about a fluff item and getting it one week earlier:
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ounts-out.html

so you might be fine with a system, and the system might be fine - yet there will always be someone complaining (that's why I said there is no PERFECT system - you will always have to deal with the reality and what people see)

What does my suggestion improve? Allowing a brand new player six months from now to be able to eventually catch up without feeling too overwhelmed. The benefit for existing players is that the system could continue past the tier three, thus allowing everyone to continue advancing the alternate advancement system.

I want something that works in the long time as opposed to a system that will either 1. become obsolete, or 2. Turn new players off the game

so you change the xp retroactively, yet still people would have the feel they have to catch up, raids still require stupidly high numbers which only people who have more time than the average can have, and with even MORE tiers in a few months a new player would see he has to get 6 tiers of PA to think he's viable. don't you think that will scare of a new player more than it does now no matter how fast he progresses in the early levels?

the system needs to have a limit, else it really is an endless grind (as someone who witnessed the IA grind in lotro, let me tell you: it's not fun). progression needs an "end" you can see and think you can reach (the carrot). new players are already at an disadvantage compared to someone who has all the gear, rep and social connections, PA won't change that.

currently PA is not too good and not too bad, yet we have this whole discussion. for example: if trion wants people to catch up faster, they could simply drop more PA exp items (the ember isle IAs give you 1 guaranteed + 1 ISS per adventure on PTS currently, so it will be faster in the future anyway). they can control where they drop, reward them for expert dailies and make them drop in the the lower tier raids etc. they could make them BOA, so alts can profit from them as well. they could even go so far and make them BOE, so people could buy them of the AH - although that would put the focus on money, which is always a problem with RMT.
however people can't progress too fast, else they hit the cap too soon and we have the same situation again we had before PA was introduced.

there's no need to change the system, because the system itself is fine (not perfect, fine) - finding the sweet spot is incredibly difficult. that's the bigger picture.
instead of retuning the system every few months (which is complicated) they could easily control how fast people progress. like they do already how fast/slow you get gear.