Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

[Hunt55511]

Well we have solid math now that these changes are not enough, its like Tirion has taken a solid idea and run totally in the wrong direction AGAIN, as usual. No scaling = no tanking how many times does Tirion have to re-balance content / classes before they figure this SIMPLE concept out ? At this point the avoidance stats we lose are too large compared to the stats we gained to compensate....nice try but try harder.

Warriors don't scale past endurance and any armor increases we get on gear, and we're the "best" tanks.

[SlayVus]

So this is what my Cleric looks like now with the PTS changes.

		Before:			After:			Change
Dodge:		567(13.44%)		289(6.85%)		-278(-6.59%)
Parry:		895(14.48%)		485(7.85%)		-410(-6.63%)
Block:		780(37.86%/51.97%)	878(42.62%/54.91%)	+98(+4.76%/+2.97%)

Armor Class: 	12137(65.12%)		No Change		No Change
Physical Mit:	13%(69.6544%)		31%(75.9328%)		+18%(+6.2784%)
Non-Phys Mit:	39%			47%			+8%
Spell Mit:	45%			47%			+2%

The only change I don't like is the basing of Parry and Dodge off of Wisdom and Int. Why not just reduce the amount of Dodge and Parry gained off of Spell Power than making it based off of stats?

[Malark]

It looks OK, I can work with that.


A little disappointed though in how avoidance has changed, I didn't mind a reduction but strength and dexterity are still superior stats for tanking. There's still no reason to change str/dex runes or sigils over.


Do you want a stat that increases something by 100% or do you want 75% ? Maybe change the intelligence to 100% and the Wisdom to 85% then it's time to start making some decisions.

[Redcruxs]

thanks for the reply zinbik, and while i understand that you don't want to increase our average mitigation from Live values you have to understand that this change makes us scale much worse than before, meaning we'll fall even further behind as the next tier is released.


currently on Live we have 2 problems:

1) we take very large unmitigated hits (about 50% higher damage taken than warriors)

2) we have the lowest average physical mitigation and lowest HP of the 3 tanks (about 25% higher damage taken than warrior)

this fix addresses #1 but makes #2 worse in the future because we scale worse now

i suggest changing dodge and parry and block back to spellpower BUT change it to the new values

ex) block = 90% of wisdom
change this to ----> block = 90%*75% of spellpower (because spellpower is 75% of wisdom)

the values won't change too much but they will scale better with powerstone and raid buffs

[Ethanol]

@Hunt: You don't realize it because you forgot all the str/dex on your gear is already converted to tank stats. Cleric tanks have to spend 6 talent points to get a way worse ratio than you.

[TheWanderer]

What it comes down to is two new clerics will emerge.

Cleric tanks who need more avoidance so we go back to mugging warriors and rogues of their essences and maces for the stats. Using Str/Dex runes or anything related to get our avoidance up since Wisdom and Int simply won't cut it as far as scaling. Downside: Less effective heals.

Cleric Tank who focuses on Wisdom/Int - You'll get a better mana pool, significant lower avoidance, possibly better raid heals as a tank. However, our focus isn't raid healing primarily as a tank. Its tossing out an occasional heal.

Possibilities: If thick skin gets consolidated to Justicar. Druid would give an HP buff and then you go into Inquisitor for the buff with armor + endurance. So you could maximize your HP. Especially useful if Spellpower is no longer useful besides healing.

Purifier for their wisdom and the armor increase gets used more now.

Essentially, I see us all over the place trying to get our avoidance up and still be able to use some of justicar's utility on the raid.

[TheWanderer]

thanks for the reply zinbik, and while i understand that you don't want to increase our average mitigation from Live values you have to understand that this change makes us scale much worse than before, meaning we'll fall even further behind as the next tier is released.


currently on Live we have 2 problems:

1) we take very large unmitigated hits (about 50% higher damage taken than warriors)

2) we have the lowest average physical mitigation and lowest HP of the 3 tanks (about 25% higher damage taken than warrior)

this fix addresses #1 but makes #2 worse in the future because we scale worse now

i suggest changing dodge and parry and block back to spellpower BUT change it to the new values

ex) block = 90% of wisdom
change this to ----> block = 90%*75% of spellpower (because spellpower is 75% of wisdom)

the values won't change too much but they will scale better with powerstone and raid buffs

I suggested that they could do .2 to .4 for dodge and parry for spellpower and that would be suitably lower. Then raid buffs would scale better. They could up block by spell power a tad to compensate. Then finish it off with the mitigation increase. We're still behind in mitigation overall, so I'd feel we're better off getting an HP buff if this is what we're stuck to try to balance out the damage we'll take.

[Malark]

Just to add, getting nothing from spellpower really does hurt the Cleric tank in that there's no consumable for the main hand that comes anywhere near what a powerstone does now.

[Malark]

thanks for the reply zinbik, and while i understand that you don't want to increase our average mitigation from Live values you have to understand that this change makes us scale much worse than before, meaning we'll fall even further behind as the next tier is released.


currently on Live we have 2 problems:

1) we take very large unmitigated hits (about 50% higher damage taken than warriors)

2) we have the lowest average physical mitigation and lowest HP of the 3 tanks (about 25% higher damage taken than warrior)

this fix addresses #1 but makes #2 worse in the future because we scale worse now

i suggest changing dodge and parry and block back to spellpower BUT change it to the new values

ex) block = 90% of wisdom
change this to ----> block = 90%*75% of spellpower (because spellpower is 75% of wisdom)

the values won't change too much but they will scale better with powerstone and raid buffs

Actually you are right I do think that spellpower has to be kept, by all means lower mitigation over what it is now, and get rid of all contribution from strength and dexterity but don't negate spellpower as an avoidance stat.

[Malark]

Possibilities: If thick skin gets consolidated to Justicar. Druid would give an HP buff and then you go into Inquisitor for the buff with armor + endurance. So you could maximize your HP. Especially useful if Spellpower is no longer useful besides healing.

The problem is that Thick Skin does actually help with Shaman survivability when DPSing. If that is removed from the shaman tree then ... Shaman is nerfed.

[TheWanderer]

The problem is that Thick Skin does actually help with Shaman survivability when DPSing. If that is removed from the shaman tree then ... Shaman is nerfed.

Therefore, tanks are pigeonholed to have to get it no matter what. So Shaman is required for justicar. 3% is a big difference.

[Eughe]

The problem is that Thick Skin does actually help with Shaman survivability when DPSing. If that is removed from the shaman tree then ... Shaman is nerfed.

The avoidance change alone ruins shamans reachable survivability outside raids.

[Noshei]

The problem is that Thick Skin does actually help with Shaman survivability when DPSing. If that is removed from the shaman tree then ... Shaman is nerfed.

This could easily be taken care of through other means in shaman by simply adding it to another ability say like the 36 point passive.

[Galibier]

The only change I don't like is the basing of Parry and Dodge off of Wisdom and Int. Why not just reduce the amount of Dodge and Parry gained off of Spell Power than making it based off of stats?

My guess simplicity. The idea I think was to have the cleric be like other tanks in terms of how parry and dodge scale. Also it takes burning power stones and other things out of the equation.

The only thing that annoys is that this change does not address the point that kills me. To increase our surviveability we are still better off going for a Stat we can not planar attune. If Rogues can have their deflection scale off dev it is not impossible to have our "block" scale off of wisdom.

[Noshei]

If Rogues can have their deflection scale off dev it is not impossible to have our "block" scale off of wisdom.

I would almost agree with this if it wasn't for the fact that we depend on block a lot more than rogues depend on deflection (and they get 1 to 1 from dex).