Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

[Brume]

Want to fix the Justicar ?
Remove every heals that affect other players, put some self high power, high cooldown heal/shield instead of raid heals. Put a malus of 2% heal to others per point spend in justicar three.
Overhaul the soul. GG, you got a perfectly valuable tanking unique soul that can only be used for tanking (or almost).

I'm bit sarcastic ? Yay, obviously but lets face ourselfs : we're gimped around the "HEAL" our soul"s" can provide, even when you go pure DPS, you got the "you're a cleric, you must heal" even in our OWN COMMUNITY.
TBH, i've not make a cleric to be able to heal but because it was not like any other MMO's, that you was forced to make a warrior in order to have effective tanking, because at start it proposed some fresh gameplay and mechanics before peoples found what i found personnally broken -ICAR and duracell spec ...
I have tanked in 1.00 with broken agro, broken stuff and still enjoyed my justicar. I've tanked in 1.1 with improved agro and some better stuff, still enjoyed my class, 1.2 was actually the climax of our spec and then after ? Broke broke broke broke.
I've stopped to play a few month ago and still hope that they will fix our class (not only the justicar is gimped around the "healiing" cleric) and provide tools for every aspect we can do, and restore the mechanics they've showed to us at the start. Actually i'm just discouraged each time i pick my toon to see the change. Not to mention : since i've almost stop to play, my entire guild have almost stopped too because i was the most active player in it and one of the main tanks. Nobody took replaced me as "leader". I'm in full T3 (triple armor stuff + 10 sigil + triple jewel + 2 1h weapon, 1 shield, 1 2h weapon)

The more Trion makes updates, the more Rift looks like a clone of other MMO : cleric heal, rogues ambush (who remember the skill that real rogues should had because the dissimulation was not as ultimate because peoples could see them), mage DPS (and have greats mechanics for healing too, not the best healing in every situation but novative mechanics), warrior tank and DPS a bit.

[mattya802]

Just as warrior utility shines more in 10/5 man content, as.most people don't run bards anymore for 10 mans and you certainly wont see them in 5 man runs. Thus, call to entrench regains its value as well. Hardly noticeable heals is hardly a real reason to justify the gap in mitigation and HP. These changes are nice yes, but still leave a decent gap between us and warriors

Fair enough - They don't actually get "better", they're not just not overwritten. Different, but a valid point.

I still agree with Stay though, that all heals do actually add up. I'm not sure I follow the logic either that smaller HP means their heals are less valuable - Wouldn't it be the opposite? 1k crit heals are 16-20% of someone's HP pool....That's pretty significant.

[Eughe]

Fair enough - They don't actually get "better", they're not just not overwritten. Different, but a valid point.

I still agree with Stay though, that all heals do actually add up. I'm not sure I follow the logic either that smaller HP means their heals are less valuable - Wouldn't it be the opposite? 1k crit heals are 16-20% of someone's HP pool....That's pretty significant.

All heals add up, but only on people receiving constant damage, which is the tank itself more than likely.

I don't think after progression 5 mans there would be a case where people would say "damn, if only we had a justi tank we really could have used that extra heal"

The assumption is that most raids have adequate healing, thus any supplemental healing a justi would give, is insignificant and unneeded.

So using that as a basis of why it is what is isn't a strong argument, because at the end of the day, healers will heal well enough, and the important part is if the tank can tank.

[Skrumpy]

Fair enough - They don't actually get "better", they're not just not overwritten. Different, but a valid point.

I still agree with Stay though, that all heals do actually add up. I'm not sure I follow the logic either that smaller HP means their heals are less valuable - Wouldn't it be the opposite? 1k crit heals are 16-20% of someone's HP pool....That's pretty significant.

All heals add up? Of course they add up to OVERHEALING. If you are using your Justicar as a "healer" you are doing it wrong. If your healers depend on Justicar heals they either aren't stretching themselves or your raid comp is messed up. By your standard why don't you just find the minimum DPS needed to meet the enrage timer, then have everyone else in the raid be healers. I'd love to see your 14 healer raid comps. Whether you choose to believe it or not there is a point at which additional heals do not make 1 bit of added difference to the encounter. Since Justicar heals are mainly passive this further devalues their utility. Since you cannot replace a raid healer with a Justicar and other healer passive AoE healing is better than Justicar passive healing it is completely unnecessary and insignificant for all intents and purposes. Anyone that says "Oh thank god we had those Justicar heals there or we wouldn't have been able to do X" is delusional. The mere fact you can do every encounter without a Justicar "healing" and not even notice a difference as a raid healer supports the fact that Justicar heals serve no benefit to the raid other than to provide additional threat for the Justicar. If Justicar heals were significant they wouldn't have had to make it so overhealing provides threat.

[Joldor]

The truth is, having a warrior tank will allow you to either run less heals or allow your healers to sit there and do nothing more often. Having a cleric tank somewhat allows for the same, but not nearly to the extent of letting a warrior do it. Our heals come no where close to the damage difference we take, especially considering our X amount of HPS wasn't on us, it was mostly on the raid.

Back on topic:
The mitigation changes on the PTS will be great for Justicars, this has been stated several times and no one is denying that. But, this still leaves us behind warriors. Also, can we get some kind of dev feedback as to why we can't get a FIX to our HP pool instead of this sloppy change that actually makes matters worse? It's almost like a random number was just pulled out of the air and added to MoL. Was there actual testing done before you pushed it to the PTS or was it just a guess at where it would put us. And are there any changes or thoughts of an increase since it's proved more of a nerf?

[Xarog]

All heals add up? Of course they add up to OVERHEALING. If you are using your Justicar as a "healer" you are doing it wrong. If your healers depend on Justicar heals they either aren't stretching themselves or your raid comp is messed up. By your standard why don't you just find the minimum DPS needed to meet the enrage timer, then have everyone else in the raid be healers. I'd love to see your 14 healer raid comps. Whether you choose to believe it or not there is a point at which additional heals do not make 1 bit of added difference to the encounter. Since Justicar heals are mainly passive this further devalues their utility. Since you cannot replace a raid healer with a Justicar and other healer passive AoE healing is better than Justicar passive healing it is completely unnecessary and insignificant for all intents and purposes. Anyone that says "Oh thank god we had those Justicar heals there or we wouldn't have been able to do X" is delusional. The mere fact you can do every encounter without a Justicar "healing" and not even notice a difference as a raid healer supports the fact that Justicar heals serve no benefit to the raid other than to provide additional threat for the Justicar. If Justicar heals were significant they wouldn't have had to make it so overhealing provides threat.

Nonsense. The reason overhealing generates threat is so that justicars can still use healing spells to get aggro even if no one has lost health. You could give justicars a 10 mana spell that healed 20 people for 10k health every gcd and still not have a reliable way to grab threat without the overhealing change.

[Kolfinna]

It's almost like a random number was just pulled out of the air and added to MoL. Was there actual testing done before you pushed it to the PTS or was it just a guess at where it would put us.

Not at all, not at all!

See, warriors get their passive "gifts" of .76% HP per point spent in tanking souls. +.76% * 66 points = +50.16%. And Warriors get 11 HP for Endurance to our 9. So... (50.16% * 11/9) = 61.3% It makes perfect sense!

Except, wait, that's not how math works.

EDIT: God, I love faking math. The RIGHT way to do it would be: Warrior tanks get 16.5176 HP per point of Endurance. To make Cleric tanks get that same amount of HP per point of endurance, they'd need a boost of (16.5176/9 = 1.8353) +83.5%

[Skrumpy]

Nonsense. The reason overhealing generates threat is so that justicars can still use healing spells to get aggro even if no one has lost health. You could give justicars a 10 mana spell that healed 20 people for 10k health every gcd and still not have a reliable way to grab threat without the overhealing change.

Nice picking and choosing what to call nonsense. Had you read the sentence previous to that you would've seen "Justicar heals serve no benefit to the raid other than to provide additional threat for the Justicar." Prior to the overheal "fix" both ST and AoE threat for Justicars sucked (more so for Justicars that were built off of STR/DEX).

[Myrkel]

calm down

its a typo, he meant 70-80% bonus HP, currently on the PTS its at 60% which gives us about equal HP as on live (still lower than warriors by far) with the side effect of making us us scale worse in the long term.

many people have done the math and our HP bonus needs to be boosted to 70% in order for us to be equal to warrior tanks in HP and TEHP.

also as to your point of swapping meins... if you've actually tanked all of HK as you claim, then you know that its not a viable option on many many fights because most of the time the "offtank" is taking as many hits at the "main tank". in reality, most fights are 2 or 3 tank fights... not main/off tank... 2 or 3 MAIN tank fights. mien swapping is a gimmick and it not a valid reason for our tanking to be inferior to warriors

You never know with some of these people on these damn forums. But yes, bumping the purposed change MoL to 70 or 80% would put us where we need to be. There's a number of ways that our HP can be fixed to put us in line with warriors and make it scale properly. And I think we've pretty much beat that discussion to death (along with really all the justicar discussions), and are really just waiting to see how Zibnik responds (if at all).

And I didn't infer that you can do it on all/many of the fights in HK, only a few (like Akylios or Grug). Nor was I implying that us being able to stance dance and heal should make us inferior tanks. However what I was saying in response to his post is, I see no reason why a tank couldn't or shouldn't swap if need be if they are currently not tanking and if fight mechanics allow it. The cd on Miens limits this "utility" (if you want to call it that), and frankly was a unwarranted change.

[Redcruxs]

The cd on Miens limits this "utility" (if you want to call it that), and frankly was a unwarranted change.

I concur



























wow this thread is completely derailed, WTB dev to set it straight!

[xnemesis]

With the change to wisdom for our scaling. Does this mean all the guys who took str/dex items will have little or no avoidence due to no scaling off of our sp, and if thats the case why is everyone still saying stacking str/dex is still superior?

[Trizzje]

With the change to wisdom for our scaling. Does this mean all the guys who took str/dex items will have little or no avoidence due to no scaling off of our sp, and if thats the case why is everyone still saying stacking str/dex is still superior?

I had a hard time reading/understanding your post.

Str/dex currently gives the same amount of B/D/P as wis/int on PTS. This makes wis/int slightly more valuable as it feeds us more spellpower that results in higher heals or more treat.

[Tourniquet1]

Whoever said that DoL is for threat generation only, either doesn't play a tank, or doesn't utilize the Cleric tank to it's full potential. DoL is NOT just an aggro tool. The byproduct of healing is AoE threat generation.

Just got done with Grugonim tonight and pulled 1.1k HPS as the add tank.

Normal phase = Add tank
Tower phse = MoH (switch to 2H), become AoE healer.

Using DoL strictly for AoE threat gen makes you a subpar tank. We have that utility and I'm really glad that I stayed away from stacking STR/DEX. The Clerics that stack STR/DEX, I get it... you want to be main tank, but right now we're better suited as add tank.

Clerics are superior at picking up adds that have aggro drops all the time in a way that no Warrior/Rogue can, (P1/P2 Akylios anyone?) Sure, they can do it, but they have to constantly be dragging adds to and from the mass pile of AoE in the melee group, meaning it takes much longer to kill them.

Clerics are just about perfect on PTS now in my opinion. Slightly lower mitigation than Warriors, slightly less HP than Warriors, but completely unrivaled in the ability to pick up extremely large amounts of adds with minimal effort.

[Ak1230]

Grugonim HPS parses are not accurate as the max HP reduction overheals are counted as actual heals on the meters.

I can do 4k HPS on that fight as a Warden but we all know it's not effective healing -- just heals counted because the raid's max HP is reduced.

[Trizzje]

I gets even worse when you realise that the raid damage during those tower fases is very steady with a 6-8 seconds interval. Any Healing I do as a Cleric tank will only result into more overhealing for my warden/chloro/inquisicar.

I honestly tend to keep my MoL up so I get initial threat on those Towers + Adds. They are a bigger problem for the healers then the steady amount of raid damage.