Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

[mattya802]

salvation is only a fraction of that (20/30heal from memory)

"DoL/DoA doesn't heal for more than that?"

Just ran thru a T2 to see about what the heals are - Looks like the 38R/20WL/8 paladin pulls between 50-150 HPS. Was thinking it was 150-200, maybe it hits that in raids or its some cleric reactive heals he gets put on him.

The other ability I noticed was "That which doesn't kill" I'm 4/5 points into it and it heals the warrior for 20% of the damage done when crit on - intersting ability.

Wasn't talking about T2's and no, it'll be less in a raid. Not to mention to get near 150hps that probably included the mirror with a non RF healer and a large trash pull.



Sorry for going off topic - I'm done here in the Cleric vs Warrior heals debate. Back on topic to getting Justicars the right amount of mitigation

[Myrkel]

We can't assume warriors are "overpowered" at tanking. They have to be our target for comparison because we have to be on equal footing to be of any desirability. No one goes into a raid and says hey lets get a Justicar because they make this content challenging. What really happens, on live now, is warriors are top choice for tanking even if they are way below the justicar in terms of gear and skill. The justicar is only used as a last resort. This should not be the case. The justicar buffs have to bring us up to warrior level as they are now to make us desirable at all. No one wants to bring their second best, we have to be the functional equivalent; Each soul with a purpose must be able to fulfill that purpose without regard to class to the same maxims. (I feel this same way about Rogue tanks as well).

All tanks in this game have utility. The reaver has a dot that drains life, the paladin has a OH CRAP button to get back all of their health, the warlord (I think it is warlord) gets an ability to heal for 33% of the damage they take on each critical hit, the paladin gets heals for each block, the rogue can use bard heals, the warlord can buff mitigation and damage, the list goes on and on. Several of these utilities can be used in a single spec. The Justicar is not the only tank in the game with utility. You can't just look at the Justicar and say they can heal so they have to be penalized, you have to look at the tanks in comparison to one another and say do these abilities balance out. If the answer is yes then we are in a great place if the answer is no then we have to ask what must be changed to make the tanks equal.

First I completely toss out your idea that the Justicar should be penalized because it can swap stances and heal a little better. If a person is in Justicar made they want to tank - not be a healer, if they wanted to heal they would be in healing role. The justicar does not drop tank stance and hit things for heals and cast doctrine of loyalty. Alternatively speaking if this is considered a valid argument for penalizing Justicar tanks then by all means something should be done so that a non-tanking justicar can not achieve such heals.

I submit to you that the Justicar is actually the lowest utility tank in the game. The Justicar has heals. We bring no buffs to raids. We bring no song to raids. I will say that some justicars bring a shaman buff to T2s. So what we really bring as utility are some raid heals. These heals have to be balanced around the warrior utilitys. The heals that we provide ourself have to be reasonably taken into account via our HP and mitagation when comparing to the warrior tank. As it stands right now, even on test the warrior has more mitagation and HP than the Justicar. This is just over the top. How do our heals compare to the warrior tank utility? Taking into account that warrior mitigation is still greater than the justicar PTS mitigation, and looking at all the other utility of the two type of tanks, I believe that the Justicar still deserves more HP. The main reason being that our heals become less useful the higher the content we are facing. The harder the mobs hit the less effective our heals are whereas the harder the mobs hit the more valuable the warrior mitigation and utility become.

The real question we have to ask ourselves is at what point do the desireability of a warrior tank and a Justicar become equal. I believe that point to be fairly close to the way the PTS is at the moment. Give the Justicar a 70-80% boost in HP and the desirability between the two classes will be very similar.

If there is anything less than equality amongst the tanks then what we have done is created a one tank world. The more describable type of tank will be used all the time whereas the second tank will be benched or asked to play another purpose/role.

Do you even understand the basic premise of math.... 70-80% would put most justicars in the 30k hp range. With the mitigation changes and everything else, we would be completely unbalanced, no to mention completely broke in pvp.

If we where a complete avoidance tank, where dodge and parry where our only stats, then sure that would make sense. All your doing is just tossing out numbers with no friging idea what the actual repercussions are.

A well played justicar has enough utility. And frankly why shouldn't a justicar swap miens and heal if he's not tanking anything, I've done It on Akylios and other fights. (honestly the CD on meins needs to be removed).

[Redcruxs]

Do you even understand the basic premise of math.... 70-80% would put most justicars in the 30k hp range. With the mitigation changes and everything else, we would be completely unbalanced, no to mention completely broke in pvp.

If we where a complete avoidance tank, where dodge and parry where our only stats, then sure that would make sense. All your doing is just tossing out numbers with no friging idea what the actual repercussions are.

A well played justicar has enough utility. And frankly why shouldn't a justicar swap miens and heal if he's not tanking anything, I've done It on Akylios and other fights. (honestly the CD on meins needs to be removed).

calm down

its a typo, he meant 70-80% bonus HP, currently on the PTS its at 60% which gives us about equal HP as on live (still lower than warriors by far) with the side effect of making us us scale worse in the long term.

many people have done the math and our HP bonus needs to be boosted to 70% in order for us to be equal to warrior tanks in HP and TEHP.

also as to your point of swapping meins... if you've actually tanked all of HK as you claim, then you know that its not a viable option on many many fights because most of the time the "offtank" is taking as many hits at the "main tank". in reality, most fights are 2 or 3 tank fights... not main/off tank... 2 or 3 MAIN tank fights. mien swapping is a gimmick and it not a valid reason for our tanking to be inferior to warriors

[Noshei]

Do you even understand the basic premise of math.... 70-80% would put most justicars in the 30k hp range. With the mitigation changes and everything else, we would be completely unbalanced, no to mention completely broke in pvp.

Please refer back to my first post with a HP Scaling Chart so see how completely wrong this statement is.

At the average HK Endurance of about 900 a 90% increase to Max HP would yield the following results:

Just MoL		15996.8
Raid Buffs		23185.7
60PA And Resonance	24987.185

And so you can see what you would need to hit 30k here you go. And these Endurance numbers are pre-buff endurance numbers.

			Endu	HP Result
Just MoL		1557	30111.2
Raid Buffs		1307	30025.7
60PA And Resonance	1187	30014.585

So 70-80% puts us no where near 30k, but just so you can see, take a look.

			70%	80%
Just MoL		1757	1657
Raid Buffs		1517	1407
60PA And Resonance	1387	1287

So please don't post something when you are just tossing out random numbers that you cant back up.

[TheWanderer]

... Justicars in PVP are a joke. If someone gets beat by a Justicar, they need to re-evaluate their pvp skills. Its too.. easy to beat them. I don't even get why PVP came up, we're more concerned about PVE. I just read some of these trolls and shake my head. 75% hitpoint increase from 60% will not put us past warriors, it'll just put us closer to where we are on live. Maybe, a couple hundred hp higher. Warriors will continue to have the best mitigation, best hp, best raid utility as a tank. There is no reason for them to feel like they are going to lose their spots. Justicars have needed work for a year to become REAL tanks and be able to MT things.

1.6 WAS about bringing all 3 classes balanced as tanks. It was designed to make each encounter be more on preference, not who is the best of the best. If your worried about your raid spots after 1.8. IF all 3 are brought to true balance after 1.8. Then maybe its time to look for a new guild?

[Malark]

Don't forget too with the whole hitpoints thing that there's 10% extra on all incoming heals as well, do Warriors/Rogue have anything like that going on ?

The changes are pretty awesome if you ask me, fine just patch to live nooooowwwww.

[Zerromi]

Don't forget too with the whole hitpoints thing that there's 10% extra on all incoming heals as well, do Warriors/Rogue have anything like that going on ?

Rogues get 6% increased healing; Warriors can get 6% increased healing, but I don't know that any builds go deep enough into Warlord for Figurehead.

Edit: 10% increased healing also doesn't matter if you get waxed due to two back-to-back unavoided/unblocked attacks within the cast time of a heal. :P

[Trizzje]

The only way to kill a tank in this game is with Huge damage in just a few seconds, Healers who fail to respond timely and the tank himself staring at a 1.5 GCD before he can use his "oh sh!t" button.
Anthing else will easily get healed true. The +10% healing taken is a nice addition but won't save you in crucial moments.

[Tegolas]

I don't agree with those who say that we should have the same mitigation and HPs of warriors.

Currently, on live, I have yet to see an encounter where we do wipe if I tank as a cleric, and we don't wipe if a warrior guildmate with similar equipment tanks. Not ever one.
I'm just 4/11 in HK, so if there is a boss I've yet to see which is not tankable by a cleric on a guild first kill (thus not overgeared), please name it.

With the changes currently on PTS, we get Wis/Int to finally be better than Str/Dex, and we get more effective HPs, as pointed out by Radak.
So, I'm really happy with the changes and I don't think we need to have our HPs brought to the same level as warriors.
Not until there will be an encounter, in ID, where a Warrior can survive and a cleric can't.

Also, if Justicar was equal to a warrior in those encounters where there is a single tank which is taking big hits (our worst-case scenario), then WHEN should a raid chose a warrior as a tank?
Considering that:
- in those fights which need 2 swapping tanks, a warrior is near to useless when not actively tanking, a Justicar one can switch to MoH and generate a significant amount of heals, not mentioning the brez.
- Justicar heals may be low, but they are ADDITIVE: in those fights requiring 2 swapping tanks you would always take 2 justicar, so one could always have MoH up. In those fights requiring 3 tanks, reparation healing from 3 justicars could add up to a significant level, and you have 3 brez, so you could do with one less chloro and get more dps.

TL;DR
If we get equal to warriors in the worst-case scenario, be prepared to toss out warrior tanks in all the other circumstances.

[aabuster1]

I don't agree with those who say that we should have the same mitigation and HPs of warriors.

...

If we get equal to warriors in the worst-case scenario, be prepared to toss out warrior tanks in all the other circumstances.

No one here is advocating the same HP and mitigation of warriors. On test right now our mitagation is still below that of a warrior. What the majority are saying, if I have been reading right, is that our HP has been lowered on PTS compared to live and needs to be modyfied upwards with a 1.7-1.8 modifer instead of a 1.6. Even with the modifers that have been suggested the HP advantage still goes to the warrior.

This HP and mitigation advantage the warrior has should be balanced against justicar self heals, while still considering all the utility/abilities that both tanks have access to... When you get that balance, when they are equivalent but different then we are great.

The balance between warriors and justicars has to come with an overall picture of both classes including utility. NONE of the tanks should be more desirable than the other. The question to ask is if Justicars are not equivalent to all other tanks, then who in their right mind will bring second best? I did not roll a Justicar to be a sub-par tank. I rolled it to be a real tank.

[Tegolas]

The balance between warriors and justicars has to come with an overall picture of both classes including utility. NONE of the tanks should be more desirable than the other. The question to ask is if Justicars are not equivalent to all other tanks, then who in their right mind will bring second best? I did not roll a Justicar to be a sub-par tank. I rolled it to be a real tank.

I agree. But I think you can't make them equally desirable in every encounter, given the different mechanics of each encounter.
My opinion is that we are currently more desirable than warriors in some encounters. We are not sub-par.
A further buff bringing us to be equal or better than them would bring them to be equal or worse to us.
Then, who in their right mind will bring the new second best?

[Noshei]

I agree. But I think you can't make them equally desirable in every encounter, given the different mechanics of each encounter.
My opinion is that we are currently more desirable than warriors in some encounters. We are not sub-par.
A further buff bringing us to be equal or better than them would bring them to be equal or worse to us.
Then, who in their right mind will bring the new second best?

Currently there is not a single encounter in this game where a cleric tank is a better option than a warriro when gear and skill are the exact same. Plain and simple a warrior tank is better. If you think otherwise please give some examples.

Also if we are equal to warriors in mitigation and HP that then leaves the decision to which to use based solely on their different capabilities. Which still puts justicar slightly behind warriors as they provide better raid utility in most situations than a justicar.

[Trizzje]

I agree. But I think you can't make them equally desirable in every encounter, given the different mechanics of each encounter.
My opinion is that we are currently more desirable than warriors in some encounters. We are not sub-par.
A further buff bringing us to be equal or better than them would bring them to be equal or worse to us.
Then, who in their right mind will bring the new second best?

Do you actually understand how big the current gap on live is? I'm talking about pure survivability between a Cleric and a Warrior. It's huge to say the least. This gap needs to decrease or you'll create one of the following situations in ID:
- Not enough tank damage so you'll continue needing half a healer to keep your Warrior MT up.
- Enough tank damage to put a dent into the warrior but Clerics get utterly *****.

Currently, in HK, a Cleric is a viable tank and a Warrior is just a shortcut to easyer progression. Once tankhealing becomes neglectable your healers will notice that they'll have a bigger "playground" to throw some extra raidheals. This will easily cancel out your tiny DoLs.

[Skrumpy]

I agree. But I think you can't make them equally desirable in every encounter, given the different mechanics of each encounter.
My opinion is that we are currently more desirable than warriors in some encounters. We are not sub-par.
A further buff bringing us to be equal or better than them would bring them to be equal or worse to us.
Then, who in their right mind will bring the new second best?

People like you are what is wrong with this game. You shouldn't try to balance mitigation/avoidance (in essence raw tanking ability) with class raid utility. All tanks should have relatively (if not exactly) the same mitigation/avoidance. Then Trion can then change the raid utilities to make each class less or more desirable. You simply cannot balance raid utility with tanking ability (ex: you can't say because a cleric has a Brez they should have XX amount less mitigation than warriors). It will never work and in every scenario cleric tanks would rather have the Brez gone than the lack of mitigation.

Last night I went to tank Murdantix (because it's easy the last few second to group up every add) and the raid groaned because they would be missing out on the armor debuff Cutting Distraction. It's like that with every boss I've wanted to solo tank.... nooo the Justicar doesn't have 5% armor reduction.. we won't be able to max DPS. This is of course on live where Justicars are already inferior in mitigation/avoidance. Yet, this wasn't about healing but raid utility. So yea, even if Justicars are bought in line with warriors raid utility sets them apart and they should synergize rather than compete for the same spot. The crux of the issue IMO is finding that sweet spot where tanks are given unique abilities that don't force a raid to bring that tank type at the risk of penalizing themselves.

Healing in this game is a joke.. it has been since they made DoL smart healing way back in the day. Healing has scaled way to well and everyone's HP has stayed relatively the same. This scenario will unfortunately make ID a joke as well. These powerful AoE heals are able to top people up insanely quickly. Justicar heals are a joke and provide little to no raid utility in the current state of the game. As a tank you are either at full health or just took a tick of damage and are about to be healed to full. Salvation is 95% over healing and Reparation is unneeded and literally provides nothing that couldn't be soaked up with a chloro healing. As a Justicar due to the nature of being forced to go 51 you aren't replacing a healer anymore, you are just supplementing their heals. This is completely unnecessary unless you are running some really bad healers. So when you break it down the only raid utility a Justicar is bringing is a Brez which again is unnecessary if heals are good and mechanics are avoided, and is likely 1 of 4+ Brezes all of which are now on 5min CDs. So again.. war tanks aren't going anywhere.

[Tegolas]

Currently there is not a single encounter in this game where a cleric tank is a better option than a warriro when gear and skill are the exact same. Plain and simple a warrior tank is better. If you think otherwise please give some examples.

Infiltrator Johlen, Assault Commander Jorb, Iskaal: all bosses that don't hit very much on the tank, but where one more brez or DoL can be useful
Oracle Aleria, Alsbeth, Guurloth, Zilas, Prince Hylas, Vladmal Prime: all bosses with adds where a Justicar can brez or mien dance or heal for a useful amount
Warmaster Galenir, Anrak the Foul, Murdantix, Matron Zamira: all bosses with tank swapping and which requires heavy raid healing, where 2 justicars can be more useful than 2 warriors (whose buffs are not additive, and they bring nothing useful when not tanking).

Also if we are equal to warriors in mitigation and HP that then leaves the decision to which to use based solely on their different capabilities. Which still puts justicar slightly behind warriors as they provide better raid utility in most situations than a justicar.

You don't bring 2 bards or 2 archons. Why bring 2 warrior tanks when their buffs are not additive? One would be enough. In every fight with 2 or more tanks one should already be a Justicar.