Zinbik,
I've had some issues with Mien of Leadership since 1.6. When I log-on with MoL still on from the last log-in, & I hop in a dungeon, MoL does not seem to be in effect until I re-apply it, even though it shows up on my buffs. Could you check into this? I know I'm not the only one that has had this weird/freak occurance since I came across a thread once with this same issue.
Thanks in advance.
PTS just finished downloading and at my gear level, just ready for T1/T2 10 mans my health stayed the same and block went up a ton. I will shut up now and leave the rest to the folks who do raid as it appears I can still do my dungeons with my guildmates and get them ready for the 10 mans. Although I will probably buy a new source machine, but thats a small price to pay for better itemization, IMO.Originally Posted by Accali
Even for people whose stats go down, the big change isn't in the stats. It's in all the new passive mitigation from the talents. If your stats actually went up, that's just a double bonus
I find that it is currently a bit iffy to compare warrior and cleric tanks. I've tanked all throughout HK progression (murd to aky). I've tanked matron before and after 1.6 successfully. However, this is while still executing the strategies that the encounter initially called for. The matron strategy is supposed to include tank swaps, resetting boss stacks, healer cooldown rotations, interrupts, etc. This was part of what made the encounter challenging during progression. I consider cleric tanks as viable and not insta kill fodder for Matron as you have described, so long as you execute the strategies that the encounter initially called for. That said, warrios currently trivialize this fight, allowing them to bypass most if not all of the boss mechanics. This is why I currently do not tank this fight. It requires more effort (albeit intended effort). So, I am less inclined to compare our tanking in the context of the magical world in which even entry-level geared
bumping this post for great justice!
this is the only major remaining thing that needs to be fixed, HP scaling. but i mean hey, if you want to be back here in a few months "fixing" us again by all means ignore this post.... you can let these changes go live as-is, they are "good enough" to hold us over for a while.
any chance we can get our "oh sht" cooldowns taken off-GCD? i hate getting killed while waiting for a global cooldown
Last edited by Redcruxs; 02-15-2012 at 11:19 AM.
I find that it is currently a bit iffy to compare warrior and cleric tanks. I've tanked all throughout HK progression (murd to aky). I've tanked matron before and after 1.6 successfully. However, this is while still executing the strategies that the encounter initially called for. The matron strategy is supposed to include tank swaps, resetting boss stacks, healer cooldown rotations, interrupts, etc. This was part of what made the encounter challenging during progression. I consider cleric tanks as viable and not insta kill fodder for Matron as you have described, so long as you execute the strategies that the encounter initially called for. That said, warrios currently trivialize this fight, allowing them to bypass most if not all of the boss mechanics. This is why I currently do not tank this fight. It requires more effort (albeit intended effort). So, I am less inclined to compare our tanking in the context of the magical world in which even entry-level warriors are able to ignore boss mechanics. Are we underpowered for current content? Or are warriors merely overpowered?
With this perspective, I'm afraid I'm in concurrence with some of the later attitudes in this thread. Cleric tanks have a lot of raid utility (at least when compared to the other tanks) so if brought on equal footing with warriors, we would pull vastly ahead in desirability. Who wouldnt want a tank that could brez and swap miens to essentially double as functional raid healer? (and yes we are very functional raid healers for certain fights. we won't have the bloated hps numbers of a pure healer of course but if played right our effective healing is nothing to scoff at).
I feel that there is a sweet spot where clerics can be within a functional distance behind warrior tanks and retain all of our utility. Either this or where all tank callings are equal yet are able to bring something unique to a raid (utility) that would balance them as desirable tanks. In any scenario, I do not think that one of these utilities should be the ability to trivialize content. :-p
Hmm posted that on my phone don't know why it decided to half post before. My apologies.
Last edited by Accali; 02-15-2012 at 11:28 AM.
You're absolutely correct, and people really need to wrap their minds around this singular concept.
I play both a Warrior and Cleric, and tank on both. My Warrior's level of survivability in PvE is excellent, and tank mitigation is great. That's if I spend 66 points into tanking specific trees, and all of the appropriate mitigation tools needed from these trees. Deviate 15 points from my tanking tree, and I lose a massive amount of mitigation/hp.
Now you have a Cleric tank, which I also play, who only spends 51 points into a tree that does both tanking and raid healing, and then 15 additional points into whatever else fits the build (i.e. 3 shaman, 12 inquisitor, or 6 cabalist... whatever floats your tanking boat).
In the end, the placement of your talents is 15 points less than a warrior. I wager that if a warrior spends 15 points outside of a tanking tree, say Champion or RB, or Paragon, that their mitigation will be close to or equal to that of a Cleric or Rogue tank AND they will have less utility.
I'll give you an example. I tanked during Aky on my warrior with 20 points into Paragon so I could become immune to the waves. This dropped my raid-buffed HP to 1.2k lower than my raid-buffed Cleric tank in similar gear.
The second extremely important balancing factor is PvP. Some of you guys are completely ignoring just how OP Clerics would become (as if they aren't already super powerful) in PvP if they could zero point Justicar/Shaman or Druid and get parry/dodge conversions without sacrificing any of their healing/DPS options.
Warriors/Rogues get these tools as a basic means for survival. They do not have the various options that Clerics (and Mages) have to survive attacks (i.e. no CD heals... none of the energy using classes can heal non-stop to an effective level).
We do not need un-talented mitigation.
I gave up my argument for druid and shaman 26 point mitigation and just adapted.
Will now just go 27 points into justicar and outlast... Since this is what Zinbik suggested..
Afterall 10% parry 10% dodge in pvp is < what 27 pts gives.
Last edited by Undrsiege; 02-15-2012 at 01:31 PM.
We can't assume warriors are "overpowered" at tanking. They have to be our target for comparison because we have to be on equal footing to be of any desirability. No one goes into a raid and says hey lets get a Justicar because they make this content challenging. What really happens, on live now, is warriors are top choice for tanking even if they are way below the justicar in terms of gear and skill. The justicar is only used as a last resort. This should not be the case. The justicar buffs have to bring us up to warrior level as they are now to make us desirable at all. No one wants to bring their second best, we have to be the functional equivalent; Each soul with a purpose must be able to fulfill that purpose without regard to class to the same maxims. (I feel this same way about Rogue tanks as well).
All tanks in this game have utility. The reaver has a dot that drains life, the paladin has a OH CRAP button to get back all of their health, the warlord (I think it is warlord) gets an ability to heal for 33% of the damage they take on each critical hit, the paladin gets heals for each block, the rogue can use bard heals, the warlord can buff mitigation and damage, the list goes on and on. Several of these utilities can be used in a single spec. The Justicar is not the only tank in the game with utility. You can't just look at the Justicar and say they can heal so they have to be penalized, you have to look at the tanks in comparison to one another and say do these abilities balance out. If the answer is yes then we are in a great place if the answer is no then we have to ask what must be changed to make the tanks equal.
First I completely toss out your idea that the Justicar should be penalized because it can swap stances and heal a little better. If a person is in Justicar made they want to tank - not be a healer, if they wanted to heal they would be in healing role. The justicar does not drop tank stance and hit things for heals and cast doctrine of loyalty. Alternatively speaking if this is considered a valid argument for penalizing Justicar tanks then by all means something should be done so that a non-tanking justicar can not achieve such heals.
I submit to you that the Justicar is actually the lowest utility tank in the game. The Justicar has heals. We bring no buffs to raids. We bring no song to raids. I will say that some justicars bring a shaman buff to T2s. So what we really bring as utility are some raid heals. These heals have to be balanced around the warrior utilitys. The heals that we provide ourself have to be reasonably taken into account via our HP and mitagation when comparing to the warrior tank. As it stands right now, even on test the warrior has more mitagation and HP than the Justicar. This is just over the top. How do our heals compare to the warrior tank utility? Taking into account that warrior mitigation is still greater than the justicar PTS mitigation, and looking at all the other utility of the two type of tanks, I believe that the Justicar still deserves more HP. The main reason being that our heals become less useful the higher the content we are facing. The harder the mobs hit the less effective our heals are whereas the harder the mobs hit the more valuable the warrior mitigation and utility become.
The real question we have to ask ourselves is at what point do the desireability of a warrior tank and a Justicar become equal. I believe that point to be fairly close to the way the PTS is at the moment. Give the Justicar a 70-80% boost in HP and the desirability between the two classes will be very similar.
If there is anything less than equality amongst the tanks then what we have done is created a one tank world. The more describable type of tank will be used all the time whereas the second tank will be benched or asked to play another purpose/role.
Then rejoice that Warriors may get a support soul in the future, because I see that solution as far superior to saying "Well just because I can't do it all, means you're gonna have to suck."
What's the point of having a "choice" of 3 tanks if the only sensible choices are only 2 of them? Same with DPS and Healers.
I wasn't aware there were still people that somehow consider the 66 >51 argument as valid. Do you guys not recall Trion's statement of role equality regardless of class? I wasn't aware that chloros had 3 healing souls and burst AoE heals in a 4th soul, yet they are quite comparable to a 66 point Cleric healer. Seriously, this argument means nothing and is completely invalid, drop it.
Yes, Clerics can "passively heal" while tanking. But Salvation heals me for between 20-150 HP. So, hypothetically, when that boss punches me in the face for 8k, I heal back around 100. So unless a warrior is getting hit for 8.1k on the same attack, I fail to see how our crazy OP self heals justify the HP discrepancy for Justicar vs. Warrior. People act as if warriors bring zero utility to a raid, while Justicars are the gods of utility. Because warriors don't have a buff to increase raid damage, or stats, or decrease raid damage taken, or anything else, right?
With that being said, yes, the current changes put Justicars in a MUCH better place than they are currently on live. Though we will still be behind warriors in both HP/mitigation, so why not make a change thats actually beneficial to our HP pool, rather than a nerf/no change
We'll you got your wish zin already came out and said:
Now as far as this goes:
This is not a practical argument. Say if you are running in MoH in your 51 justicar build while waiting to switch to MoL to off tank adds or what have you. Once you switch to MoL to do your off tanking that is a point when the extra heals are going to be needed, which means either A) now you are going to be short healers or B) the healing you did while in MoL was pretty much just over healing and meaningless in the first place. I personally don't see dancing between MoH and MoL as really benefiting the raid any.
As Zin said to get back on track. After looking at the above link it seems we scaled so much smoother now on live then we do on test, So why do we even have to change MoL from End to HP?
Last edited by kliknik; 02-15-2012 at 02:47 PM.
"Overall we want the various callings to be competitive with each other in their comparative roles. There isn’t a mandate that Rogues do more damage than Warriors or that Mages be the best ranged damage in the game. Ideally we would like to see players with equivalent skill, gear, planar attunement, buffs etc be equally effective at damage, tanking or healing." - Kervik
I was assuming the change was so that we scaled like warriors and rogues do. Allowing MOL to enhance our total HP after buffs makes the flow smoother than just enhancing our endurance. Without changing this anything outside of raw endurance does not affect us as much in the HP department as it does the other tanks, another gap they wanted to close. In theory this is fine but the percent of return is in question. I think the majority of the people here realize a 60% MOL is far to low. Most call for a 70-80% modifier while it has been suggested a value as high as 90% would be called for.
Honestly, if they aren't going to adjust the % on the proposed MoL change, I would prefer they leave that portion of the changes out and leave our MoL as-is on live. Until at a later date they maybe realize how poor the scaling is and how behind our HP is. There's no point in making a change that doesn't fix the issue and is a nerd outside a raid setting
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