Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

[Malark]

43 page thread with the same theme going on, with people chiming in and repeating the same problem, the same ideas, the same issues with said ideas, the same fix to those issues.

This is all very circuitous and I hope it highlights what really needs to be done.

Honestly, what needs to be done ? Pretty much nothing in my opinion.


Though yeah it's been a long time and honestly I kinda feel like asking for more HP on top of all the other stuff is kinda pushing it. Clerics can heal somewhat, and do get a big absorb shield, a smaller one with 4 piece bonus, etc etc.

This is a pretty big shift, maybe with the new zone coming out mobs are going to be hitting very hard but anything before that and wow, Clerics just got put on the tanking map big time. Enough that I think there will be some tears from Warriors. Of course in my guild Warriors are right up there in single target DPS and really pull away in AOE DPS in that one spec so .. all good ? Either way a couple of K of hitpoints, is it really worth putting all the other stuff in jeopardy over ?

[TheWanderer]

Honestly, what needs to be done ? Pretty much nothing in my opinion.


Though yeah it's been a long time and honestly I kinda feel like asking for more HP on top of all the other stuff is kinda pushing it. Clerics can heal somewhat, and do get a big absorb shield, a smaller one with 4 piece bonus, etc etc.

This is a pretty big shift, maybe with the new zone coming out mobs are going to be hitting very hard but anything before that and wow, Clerics just got put on the tanking map big time. Enough that I think there will be some tears from Warriors. Of course in my guild Warriors are right up there in single target DPS and really pull away in AOE DPS in that one spec so .. all good ? Either way a couple of K of hitpoints, is it really worth putting all the other stuff in jeopardy over ?

While I do agree with you, its taken such a long time to give us much of a pass over. 1.6 barely scraped the surface and that was our first real tweak since the game started. Since it may be another 6-7 months before we get a pass over because they have so much on their plate, deadlines, etc. I'd like to try to get any and all issues covered before we end up hitting the proverbial brick wall later down the road. If you know what I mean.

[Malark]

A warrior:

(900 * 16.5) + [(214 + 45) * 16.5] + (1835 * 1.5016) = 14850 + 4273.5 + 2755.436 = 21878.936

On PTS, a cleric has:

(900 * 14.4) + [(264 + 45) * 14.4] + (1835 * 1.6) = 12960 + 4449.6 + 2936 = 20345.6 (with Armor of Treachery)
(900 * 14.4) + [(214 + 45) * 14.4] + (1835 * 1.6) = 12960 + 3729.6 + 2936 = 19625.6 (without Armor of Treachery).

I can live with that 21879 v 20346 a difference of 1533 hitpoints, this is at the highest level too I asssume.

[Trizzje]

I can live with that 21879 v 20346 a difference of 1533 hitpoints, this is at the highest level too I asssume.

Might be the highest level for current content but will get bigger in the next.

with the smaller gear upgrades between Tiers (introduced with 1.7) we might see a 200 endurance jump going from T2 to T3 raid gear for both Clerics & Warriors.
Warriors have a modifier of 16.5, Clerics a modifier of 14.4. This means this 200 endurance will end up as an extra 420 hitpoints in favor of warriors.

Changing our MoL to 70%, as suggested by Finella, would net us a loss of 240HP. Keep in mind that we scale a tad beter with armor and I think you'd be close to hitting that sweet spot.

[Ethanol]

Clerics can heal somewhat, and do get a big absorb shield, a smaller one with 4 piece bonus, etc etc.

But it's not like warriors are just absorbing damage and bringing nothing else to the group (the whole point of the "oh you can heal & brez, ****" arguments). Depending on the spec, they can buff the raid damage, apply some bard motifs, do a weak flaring power, give endurance/resist auras and even raid wide defensive cooldowns (extra HP, extra healing)
A lot of that isn't needed in some situations (like archon/bard/beastmaster doing the buffs/debuffs) but it's the same with our heals.

And it's certainly not a reason for warriors to get 15% more HP from gear than us. We're getting our mini tank overhaul atm, might as well get it done right.

[Phenglai]

I like the last set of changes and the 1:1 on wisdom and 1:1 on int will work out well in the long run. The change to the health gives me a net gain of 34 health where I am sitting with full crafted gear and 3/4 Mark pieces, and some GSB/RoS drops, I am not seeing the same drop in health others are reporting with the 60% health change.

[Phage]

• Stalwart Citadel: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Block.
• Devout Deflection: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Parry and 33-100% of your Intelligence to Dodge.

Sure do love spending 6 entire soul points only to match what Rogues and Warriors get naturally.

This should be active for Faith in Action at level 0 or there should be an improved Faith in Action later on in the tree that comes passively.

Supremacy is sloppy. Giving 9/18% mitigation from 2 points while forcing us to take 6 points just to get inferior mitigation hurts my brain.

Maybe cost 1 point to get Wis/Int to give avoidance, but 6? We could have had 5 points to deal with fluff like humility, to give us some better tanking tools, pretty much anything else that isn't tread water for avoidance.

[metalith]

The Wisdom and Int conversions need to be folded into a base zero point ability.

The is no reason why Justicar tanks have to spend points into a soul just to get the same innate mitigation that Rogues and Warriors get just for being Rogues and Warriors.

The points spent into Stalwart Citadel and Devout Deflection could be retooled to be better tools such as increasing the amount of damage that is blocked when we blocked or a yank to instantly summon a target to us, instead of relying on the Rebuke CD to deal with spell-casters and other ranged targets. Maybe something that converts Spell Power to increase the amount of damage blocked.

Something like -

Devout Deflection: Reduce the amount of damage taken when blocked by 50/100/150% of the Cleric's Spell Power.

[alshara]

@malark

Sorry if I got yer name wrong, on mobile and quote post is a pain in the neck.

I also did not see the new PTS update post from Z. I just saw the thread explode with some of the same old postings, more or less, from different people that have been repeated before.

I must say, it's good to have a dev listen to the community in some form or another. Yeah, spending 6 points to get where the other tanks are is kinda a bummer, but move in the right direction. I gotta play with the new stats personally to see how it works out.

[Redcruxs]

well, i guess i can live with these changes. our HP is still not scaling as well as warriors, so we'll soon be back to the drawing board, might as well make it 70% hp bonus now rather than later (the math is in another post in this thread)


our mitigation is good, our avoidance is good, our total effective HP is almost on par with warriors now (i think that the HP difference is the only factor now)

i'm up to 19k hp and 314k TEHP with these changes, warriors are at 21k hp and ~350k TEHP (i'm not quite BiS yet, almost though)

with a 70% modifier i'd be at 20k hp, 334k TEHP, which is very close to warriors

the only part that really makes me sad is the fact that all cabalist and sentinel builds are gone, as are any other SP based builds/gear/PA/consumables we used to use

we are essentially forced into 3sham/6inq now, i just wish there was some way that spellpower could have been kept in the equation... oh well

like i said, i can live with these changes and won't be retiring my tank if they go live

[Trizzje]

@Redcruxs

Still at work so not a lot of time for paper and pen.
If possible for you: try a "5 druid/ 51 Justi / 6 inq" build and calculate your TEHP. Might be interesting.

[alshara]

@redcruxs

It is disheartening that SP is not as desirable as a stat now, but if we keep the changes as they are and then make more of our abilities get powered by SP or better SP scaling, such as:

Doctrine of Bliss: give it more of a boost from SP. It's a very weak heal. Or turn it into a conviction eating shield that grants dmg reduction based on SP, say at rank 9 it absorbs X dmg modified by SP*Y. So it'll read something like "Grants a shield that absorbs X dmg plus Y% of SP. Uses a conviction" have to work on the math.

So, say it absorbs base 900 at rank 9, SP percentage is 90%. My current SP in tank gear is 400. That'll give a shield of 1260 dmg absorbsion. Not much, but better than the crappy heal it gives.

[Redcruxs]

@Redcruxs

Still at work so not a lot of time for paper and pen.
If possible for you: try a "5 druid/ 51 Justi / 6 inq" build and calculate your TEHP. Might be interesting.

5 druid increases HP by about 600, but lowers TEHP by about 3k so its not worth it. 3sham/6inq was always the best spec, but at least you COULD get some benefit out of cabalist previously (very fun spec) now the only souls we have options of using are shaman, inquis, druid (terrible), and purifier (terrible). cabalist, sentinel, and warden do nothing now, further reducing variety/uniqueness.

i just don't think that any stat or soul should be 100% useless. before it was parry, now its spellpower. is it not possible to balance us while at the same time letting us use ALL the stats at our disposal?

[Trizzje]

Useless is a big word.

We still have this "healing gimmick" that requires spellpower. Same story for threat.
The only thing that'll change now is the fact that we have more choices.
Trinkets, weapons & "powerstone/30wisdom " come to mind.

Stacking str/dex over wis/int in both runes & lesser essences was always "better for mitigation". Still most people preferred wis/int as it would add to some increased healing true DoL/DoA.

You claim spellpower is useless while I still plan on using powerstones over the 30wisdom buff.

[alshara]

"i just don't think that any stat or soul should be 100% useless. before it was parry, now its spellpower. is it not possible to balance us while at the same time letting us use ALL the stats at our disposal?"

Well if you did that, why would you roll anything but cleric! :b