You are clearly lying, because obviously, Rogues have plentiful energy and never run out according to less then a handful of Rogues.....Originally Posted by songie
You are clearly lying, because obviously, Rogues have plentiful energy and never run out according to less then a handful of Rogues.....
Sweet, Trion, Devs, anyone?
Is the current energy consumption use and regen within the Rogue archtype going to remain as the defining tool for Rogue consistant DPS?
It is a simple yes or no answer so we can move on please.
Don't hold your breath. Devs have no reason nor inclination to answer every pet question presented, it only serves to change all discussions from amongst the player base to "How can I craft this to get the Trion response so I can win a cookie?" that plagued the WoW boards when GC posted frequently.
Oh and this thread, if this is the one you were referring to back in the Rogue forums, has the same folks in it on both sides. Just sayin'
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Energy is the way Trion controls burst damage. The first 6-8 skills you use are 1 second apart. Bam bam bam. After that initial burst, you're on-par with every other class, with about 1.5 seconds in between attacks (due to being energy starved).
If you don't want to be energy starved, then all your damage would get nerfed, and that would cause even more QQ.
GSB: 5/5, RoS: 4/4, HK: 10/11
GP: 4/4, DH: 4/4
Admittedly, rogue is the calling I have the least experience with. It's possible you need an overall DPS boost, I don't know... but the basic concept of energy starvation limiting your overall DPS makes loads of sense. Otherwise, why even HAVE an energy bar?
If you're tuned for high initial burst, you can't expect to ALSO have sustained DPS that competes with other callings. As long as rogues are able to spec for sustained DPS, there's no problem with a rogue burst build dropping to sub-par DPS once you've depleted your energy bar.
Warrior - 100 Energy. Skills cost 10-20 energy. 1.5 second GCD. Multiple attack abilities off the GCD.
Needs to build 3 combo points for a max finisher (gets 2 point building abilities)
Rogue - 100 Energy. Skills cost 30-40 energy. 1 second GCD. Multiple utility skills off the GCD.
Needs to build 5 combo points for a max damage finisher (gets 2 pt abilitie able to build 3 points with deep Assassin spec if attacking from stealth)
Warrior - spec 8 points into Champion to proc 10 energy with every critical hit.
- spec 18 points into Paragon to gain 10 energy everytime you parry / dodge an attack.
Rogue - spec 18 points into Bladedancer to gain 15 energy for a 5 point finisher (that costs 100-110 energy to set up 40+30x3 / 50+30x3)
Rogues are meant to be initial burst with an artificial energy starvation cooldown after killing a target.
Warriors are meant to have more consistant sustained damage but lack initial burst in comparison to Rogues.
Yet with Warriors having skills that cost half of what Rogue skills cost + far superior ways to regain energy (even with a lower base regen). Warrior skills do damage that is comparable or superior to individual Rogue skills.
The key point however are the amount of attacks that Warriors have that are off the GCD, meaning they can spam multiple attacks per second, thus nullifying their slower GCD. They are actually able to produce burst numbers that rival Rogues and in some cases are superior.
Take a mixed Champ Paragon for example.
Can run in with proper timing to guarantee a crit - Bull Rush - (Flinching Strike, Rising Waterfall and Frenzied Strike all in ONE second) - Titan Strike. (Target Dead).
The only burst Rogues have anywhere near that is as a 51 Assassin to start from Stealth - Jagged Strike - Puncture - Final Blow, possibly a Serpent Strike proc. It's fast, but the numbers are lower unless we crit and now the Rogue has to build up the next 5 combo points one by one to finish off the target or move to the next (could take 5 seconds).
The Warrior is able to build up attack points quicker with various 2 point builders and only needing to build to 3 points, and their 3 points save to themselves, ours are on a target by target basis.
Its ridiculous to have 1s gcd and unable to catch it. As i said in other thread, we have a couple 2cp abilities that cost 40-50 energy and THIS is enough to be starving from. Must be a choice 1cp/finisher=not starving or 1+2cp/finisher=starving
EU >> Cloudbourne >> Rogue >> Rank 6
You need to learn how to read, just sayin'.
You're really grasping at straws Taemek.
One more person in your second thread, posted by you on the same issue, being countered by the same people on the same points, doesn't put you in any stronger of a position. If it does, then the mountain of posts between the many posters in opposition count just as much and you aren't really in any position to claim a majority, especially not using forum statistics.
You've dodged that point multiple times, so please, explain your reasoning that shows some measure of integrity or stop entirely.
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I'm a bard and use Fervor as well. The normal group is a Warrior tank, Warrior dps, Rogue dps, myself and healer ( cleric healer or mage depending on which is online ).
The dps warrior is never under 85 energy and the dps rogue is never over 30 energy. Something seems wrong about that situation.
Says who?
Who is to say that our sustained DPS while in pooling mode isn't capable of staying on par with other DPS builds (right now we only have a few that do this, but they do successfully do this)?
Who is to say that Warriors aren't allowed to have large up front burst despite also having consistent DPS?
I'm pretty certain both Warriors and Rogues are intended to be able to produce on-demand burst as well as competitive sustained DPS, one for target swaps/PvP and the other for 90% of PvE.
So we aren't doing enough burst with our attacks? I'm not sure what the complaint is here since you aren't comparing the entire tool set across both Callings. Not all of a Rogues' damage is 100% Energy dependent, and the DPE of some skills skyrockets once you get it rolling properly, like Fiery Spike. Individually sure we don't hit as hard with Deadly Strike as they do with one of their finishers, but you can't 1:1 compare skills like that unless you are specifically talking about short time frame burst scenarios.Yet with Warriors having skills that cost half of what Rogue skills cost + far superior ways to regain energy (even with a lower base regen). Warrior skills do damage that is comparable or superior to individual Rogue skills.
I think Warriors should be capable of doing similar burst to us, just as any DPS Calling should be capable. Some will be better at it than others sure, just as you state, but I think with all the DPS Souls a Warrior has, they definitely deserve to have a chance to burst hard.The key point however are the amount of attacks that Warriors have that are off the GCD, meaning they can spam multiple attacks per second, thus nullifying their slower GCD. They are actually able to produce burst numbers that rival Rogues and in some cases are superior.
Furthermore, I see this "off the GCD so they hit just as often as us" comment a lot. In another thread I listed every off the GCD ability I could readily find at 3 AM and the only ones that stuck out were Frenzied Strike (I think its called, the proc off crit skill in Champ) and the Riftblade X Burst finishers that buff your next attack. Everything else was stuff like interrupts (like our Weapon Barrage) or CDs (like our CDs) or defensive reactives (like Dissengage and Reprisal). Even if you're deep enough into RB for good use of Burst spells and you're using Fork (which is off the GCD but just buffs your next attack, so not really a direct attack at all), the only off the GCD ATTACK you actually use is synonymous with Serpent Strike. So if I'm missing some key skill that gets spammed all the time for Warriors to use, please let me know but otherwise this is a misnomer.
Flinching Strike is akin to Weapon Barrage, it is off the GCD and an interrupt. If this counts for Warriors than 12pts in BD grants us the same exact option.Take a mixed Champ Paragon for example.
Can run in with proper timing to guarantee a crit - Bull Rush - (Flinching Strike, Rising Waterfall and Frenzied Strike all in ONE second) - Titan Strike. (Target Dead).
Frenzied Strike has to follow a critical hit, so unless you use Perfect Timing (a 30 sec CD), you can't guarantee it will be up. Frenzied is also the equivalent to Serpent Strike.
Finally, your scenario uses a 2pt Titan Strike unless I'm missing a talent somewhere that grants either Rising Waterfall or Bull Rush a 2nd Attack Point.
And this doesn't just kill people, not if you're in decent gear. I haven't been blown up by a Warrior 1v1 in a long time.
So you are worried about burst and how many points we have to build per finisher. Cheaper costs wouldn't really help this situation much since you have to spend 6+ seconds when starting from full to actually deplete your Energy. So if you want better burst, you need those skills to hit harder.The only burst Rogues have anywhere near that is as a 51 Assassin to start from Stealth - Jagged Strike - Puncture - Final Blow, possibly a Serpent Strike proc. It's fast, but the numbers are lower unless we crit and now the Rogue has to build up the next 5 combo points one by one to finish off the target or move to the next (could take 5 seconds).
The Warrior is able to build up attack points quicker with various 2 point builders and only needing to build to 3 points, and their 3 points save to themselves, ours are on a target by target basis.
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Frenzied Strike is 20 points into Champion, Serpent Strike is 51 points into Assassin....
Weapon Barrage does what, 250 damage?
4k Damage from a Warrior in 2 seconds (low damage hits too)
The kinda hits I see in most Warfronts vs Warriors
More
More Classic Bull Rush, Flinching, Frenzied, Disruptive + Titan Strike
I see this daily from Warriors in my Warfronts, Final Blow is the only ability I have that hits anywhere near those numbers.
Okay lovely, so you want to do more burst. That's great, it has nothing to do with our Energy though.
Flinching hits a lot harder than our Weapon Barrage, which is a ranged attack too remember, but it is still there on top of the rest of our damage. And again, if the complaint is that a Warrior can charge in and do this and we cannot, and we want to be able to unload similar or greater damage in the first 4-5 seconds, Energy isn't the issue, it is the strength of our attacks, which is exactly what the OP doesn't what happening for PvP concerns. I disagree with the OP and your own post just reinforces that.
Warriors hit hard no doubt. I think it is a bit funny that their interrupt skill actually does a fairly sizeable chunk of damage, especially when our own doesn't deal near that amount.
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