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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PTS Update - 11/15/19 - Mage and Inquisitor Adjustments

  1. #76
    Shadowlander Dbatzz's Avatar
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    Default Some Comments and Questions

    I got several comments and questions to make. Most of my comments and questions will be about playing style of the spec, not much about changing percent or stat scaling damage.

    I think the Nysyr's Rebuke buff and Soul Stream revival (in addition to the changes postulated for it, maybe make it cleave too) are really great suggestions.

    Is there a spec that already does force proc of all active DoTs when a channel is used? Would this just be a glorified Eruption of Life?

    Why are people suggesting including Scourge in Sanction, wouldn't that just make Inquisitor lazier to play? I should add though, the idea to make all active DoTs proc Sanction does sound nice, its like a setup build for immunity phases and might allow some new hybrids to pop up. Though the full proc up-time for Sanction suggestion sounds busted and overpowered.

    Is there possibility of making active cleave much stronger for Inquisitor (or maybe passive cleave? I hear mixed responses for this, some saying it should match rogue and mage but other saying that would be "free" cleave).

    Is it possible to make a buff for cleric that removes the movement restrictions from cast times or channels but reduces damage? I know you can just use abilities like Bolt of Light and Bolt of Judgement and this essentially removes all movement restrictions but I just want to bring it up to see what responses it gets.

    Is there anything that can make the caster classes (both mages and clerics) do some sort of buildup for immunity phases (something better than the Sanction mechanic, refreshing Prismatic/Fire buff, or Countdown/Flame Bolt, etc.) or are we fine and accepting of the current meta? Rogues have Dusk Strike, Primalists have the stuff to build a strong Fury Blast, Warriors have the things to sustain well buffed Icy and Rift Bursts, probably more stuff in other martial builds too.

    Warlock multi-DoT seems fun for Azranel and Titan X (entire TDnm, Arakhurn, Ereandorn for T1 content) and seeing its damage buffed may allow mages to have a renewed interest in other specs again. Only really seen three mages in my whole raiding career in 4.0 playing it.

    Maybe there's more better off-souls and hybrids yet to be found for Harbinger or Pyro. Because Legendary Element Forces and Dark Touch injecting itself into specs again
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  2. #77
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    Proccing dots is something like legendary Flame Spear (no igcd).

    Fun active cleave would be to have Soul Drain get the same mechanics as BoD and reduced cd (might be broken on low levels tho)

    Indeed Sanction auto applying dots and spam until channeling sounds alot like Reaver ^^

    BoR Continuing Casting with 50% movement slow- like Centry Battery might be fun. Both MM and Cleric have the option for a 50% runspeed to negate the penalty. Channels surely should be kept static unless coal and leg. Perseverance.

    Buildup for immunity phases is what i call transfer dmg. Punishing Strike is this kind of ability. It doesn't suffer too much being used on any target and has it's main effect utilised throughout other abilities later on.

    Warlock dots should still tick during Azranel Spin. Using the 80% reduction cd correctly, Mana Wrench Lock might become bis for this boss.

    We tried alot of offsouls on Pyro and Harbinger. They are all pretty close to each other - but then comes 4 ele 11 lock and does 9-10% more total dmg.
    Last edited by Shas; 11-23-2019 at 02:29 PM.

    Hierosolyma | Katane | Azuren | Jeru | Syenn | Shas | Shaslol | Shastroll

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post

    //oof beefy man that doesn't help rn

    I know anger makes us say rash things, as it stands though these changes are amounting to a nothing burger, so far it is less dps than 1 button shaman, on a spec that is complex and non-intuitive that does nothing to make it more desirable it is not going to compete against a rogue or prim, or even other cleric builds

    the spec needs less buttons, more cleave, and better skill buffing lower in the tree to make it work better with hybrid specs, you know the reason they removed legendary hits.

    perhaps adding a lockout function to the dots so they work like frostbite that way you can stack all the dots on 1 macro making for an easier rotation, make SS work like just about every other class (as a cleave), add 15% dmg to inquis skills that does not stack with FS for 12sec to leg SH, so you dont feel forced into druid for FS, that then eats a mastery for 20m FS, and could use the buffs stacking mastery instead. Then make the current SH work like leg sh, and leg SH proc off only inquis dmg and proc every hit.

    Inquis should have 2 functioning play styles bolt/dot spam, and channel/dot spam right now you have a timer CF of different skills and play styles that is too immobile, lacks aoe, and has too many buttons.
    Last edited by beefy1212; 11-24-2019 at 03:52 AM.

  4. #79
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    I got you there. We are all on a compareable frustration level.

    I would go the other way and say Shaman etc need *more* buttons.
    Inquisitor in raids - is fairly fun. It just doesn't last seeing the numebrs for all the efforts. Inq bursting 3mil and most clerics wouldn't bother with the extra buttons ^^
    Defiheal has great results and very little people complain about the non-macroable piano setup.

    Inquisitors seeing MM being fully mobile with same or more dps ever left a bitter taste (warden thraxx etc pp)

    The effort / Result is a little off between the classes. Warrior with Riftblade and Warlord even is on the current average level when it comes to active rotation. 5 button Paragon was considered ez pz once :P
    Last edited by Shas; 11-23-2019 at 07:53 PM.

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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I would go the other way and say Shaman etc need *more* buttons....
    I agree it should need more buttons, but as you stated the effort/result is off

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Defiheal has great results and very little people complain about the non-macroable piano setup.
    Defiheal is much more streamlined than inquis, you put your dots up, maybe your curses depending on the fight, then spam your 1 button macro, until you need to refresh your dots at which point you refesh them all and then go back to your macro

    it is press 1 key for about 15 sec, then press a series of keys for 5-7sec, then press 1 key for 13-15sec etc.

    deforacle is bit more complex because it is actually worth it to weave in AA, and what not.

    the issue with inquis is the whole put up some dots with non matching cds, buff from 2 trees with different cd's spam BOR twice then cast bod for free ogcd, then cast borx2 unless RC is up, then make sure your plethora of different timered dots are up, pop RC cast 2-3 channels that has a whole .5 sec of extra time, so dont have any lag, then hold off some dots but not others while not missing your spam rotation on bor otherwise you wont get off your bor/bod spam in time for the next dot block, oh yea and figure out when to shoehorn in leg IF with its 20 sec buff on an 8sec cd or lose 15% dmg which means your dps rotation will always slowly desync the longer the fight continues. Even when you know what you are doing the laggy servers make it a forgone conclusion you are going to slip up. Shaman is too easy and still doing better dps than the hot mess that is some semblance of a rotation on inquis.

    I freely admit i dont play inquis, i dont like it, or understand it, and of course all of those things are related I dont understand it, so i dont like it, and therefor dont play it. I suspect I represent a larger portion of the cleric base than the cleric base would care to admit.

    But as you say the "The effort / Result is a little off between the classes" and I will add "souls"

  6. #81
    Shield of Telara
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    Legendary Perseverance. Remove the part where BoD does 20% more damage, keep everything else especially the movement while channeling. Add Vex does 20% more damage per stack of Echoing Concord. Removes 1 Stack of Echoing Discord every 5 secs. or 5 stacks of Echoing Concord when you cast vex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dbatzz View Post
    Why are people suggesting including Scourge in Sanction, wouldn't that just make Inquisitor lazier to play? I should add though, the idea to make all active DoTs proc Sanction does sound nice, its like a setup build for immunity phases and might allow some new hybrids to pop up. Though the full proc up-time for Sanction suggestion sounds busted and overpowered.
    Making inquisitor less lazy to play or making them play competitively in the current meta for most users? See how you can spin the argument? DoT specs like Reaver and Warlock have no cast times and can apply all necessary or most DoTs. Legendary Void Barrage is a channel that is only 1.5 sec long and can be channeled while moving. Only if they use Dom in their spec they have a long 6 sec. channel. They have options as well that seem not to be much of a DPS loss if they don't use Mana Wrench from Dom. The next best alternative inquisitor has to mimic the same playstyles like channeling while moving/Multi Doting off one ability is 100s of thousands of DPS loss. Reaver has Shadow of Dread which applies all reaver DoTs. They have one channel that doesn't allow movement every 30secs. They have no cast times other than that. Both warlock and Reaver offer better cleave than inquisitor potential so if reaver eventually gets buffed then they will be far better in terms of playability, and much lazier to play.

    In terms of playability it was a tit for tat. You get to not have to clip channels to refresh Mental Resilience however you now need to channel AI every 30 secs. which greatly impacts your movement. There is nothing at all to fall back on like Warlock has to avoid standing channels without a significant DPS loss. You can still clip AI as long as it isn't in the main burst though. They could have just made MR last 1 min. and it wouldn't have had any big impact on PvP or PvE playability. Inquisitor channels roughly 6 channels roughly every 2mins-2.15 mins. Depending on GCD loss from cast times. 5 which are 2 secs. and 1 that is 3 secs. Everything else is keeping up instant dots, buffs, debuffs, BoD and cast times of 1 or 2xBoR to get those instant BoD's. Sometimes you can get a BoD off right before Nysyrs procs a BoD but that fails 99% of the time for me so I don't bother. Maybe having a slower connection to PTS allows some players to do it. I don't have much PTS lag. Much more on live so my DPS is usually lower on live than on PTS.

    The PTS is not able to provide the actual difference with near max gear available for each class. If INQ breaks even on PTS with the highest parsing spec of the top class available it will most likely end up less competitive on live than them in most scenarios even for the top 1%. We can't tell if they scale just as well as the top specs. I doubt just based on the current rotation. Be wary of people who say breaking even on PTS actually assumes they will do it on live vs. their equally top geared counterpart or on raid bosses that are not a quick kill.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 11-24-2019 at 06:14 AM.

  7. #82
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    Amazing, that over and over again, Hybrids play as good/ better than 'intendet specs' (Harbchont, melee Prim, Frooty etc). Many 4.x Legendaries restrict and distance intentionally further from those options with way too impactful 58s/ 61s. (Sham, Lock, Inq, Archo, etc)

    It's a handful of hybrids ruling the pve meta and yet, we are balancing 61s against each other :P
    Primalist runs- besides maybe titan&farseer, no full 31 specs in pvp and pve. And it's doing great.
    Pyros 61Fussiliate passive, the %-for-points-spent passive+ Neddras takes it slightly above a fun Burst Pyro Hybrid.

    Let me do the current inq later and get a feel on how much % it precisely misses.

    Pyro is okay as it is rn. Still we happily take another round of adaptatons to get rid of Leggy Neddras.

    I'm testing the learning curve of the pts Pyro by having a couple 'never pyro before' players picking it up as quickly as possible.
    //LeF management on pyro is quite counterintuitive and takes a good while to not mess up. Even if The current pts Pyro goes live YOU CAN EXPECT THE MAJORITY OF PYROS USED TO NOT PERFORM WELL, compared to shaman etc.

    pts Inq works well on isiel- the only encouter you may *have to* pick it.
    In terms of reused old content, only Warden Thrax and Salvarola throws it off alot (long forced runs) where you can work with the RS teleport.

    Please really make Inq independent of RS
    Last edited by Shas; 11-25-2019 at 12:16 PM.

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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post

    The PTS is not able to provide the actual difference with near max gear available for each class.
    i can't agree more on that.We asked several times in the past for a cape giving us 7500 Cp so with the base 1099 from gear , we will reach CP cap and then being able to test specs at the same lvl of gear than the live one. For example harbinger being stronger on PTS with elemental forces and neddra , could not be the strongest on live high much more CP.

    I also agree that most of dot's specs can put nearly all their dot in ont button, inqui could see sanction added to the mastery Faith's freedom. Would make the rotation easier.

    Maybe adding 20% more spell power effect on dots , via mental resilience passiv could help inqui dps too. But again it would promote dots for inqui playstyle rather than channel/bolts, but we currently use all dots better boost them a little bit for overall dps gain
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 11-24-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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  9. #84
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    Question

    Are there further tweaks one the pts classes planned or do you need more data?
    Last edited by Shas; 11-26-2019 at 02:27 PM.

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  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #85
    Rift Team Avathar's Avatar
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    Default PTS Update 11/28/19 - Inquisitors and Capes

    Added in additional adjustments for Radical Coalescence, Nysyr's Rebuke, and Crit Power Capes.

    Cleric
    Inquisitor:
    • Legendary Radical Coalescence - Increased passive boost to bolt abilities to 65%.
    • Legendary Radical Coalescence - Increases the damage of Nysyr's Rebuke while active. (PvE only)
    • Nysyr's Rebuke - Increased damage per tick.
    Last edited by Avathar; 11-28-2019 at 11:41 AM.

  11. #86
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    -----------------------------------


    If i had to, i wouldn't pick a pts Pyro. When i want to play LEF, there is ELe and if i enjoy death dots, there is Lock.

    Warlock really only needs Death's door to have the hp requirement removed, duration increased to 10 seconds (+ maybe Conflux accepting the Eternal Weapon).
    Harb is very spam-macro-heavy and either ele-Lock or Bloom for offsoul don't look fun enough for gearing up a mage.

    From the 3 mage specs under surgery, i would highly recommend focusing on the Warlock. No Primary bolt slave. No LEF bs.

    #Give cleric eternal totem
    Last edited by Shas; 11-28-2019 at 04:27 PM.

    Hierosolyma | Katane | Azuren | Jeru | Syenn | Shas | Shaslol | Shastroll

  12. #87
    Shield of Telara Dizbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avathar, Dev #1 View Post
    Update: 11/28/19 - Added in additional adjustments for Radical Coalescence, Nysyr's Rebuke, and Crit Power Capes.
    Working on Thanksgiving Day?
    Thanks very much for your commitment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    ...#Give cleric eternal totem
    feels 100% better for spellslingers & more stylish
    #Totems 4 Life

  13. #88
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    I really like the changes so far and harbinger beeing a little annoying to play is fine for me, as long as it is actually rewarding to manage to do so. If the weapon buffs can get buffed by the eternal, harb would also have some better AoE like shaman.

    I agree that warlock should be in the focus, a dot based specc should excel at fights without target swaps compared to one where you just tab and continue spaming (looking at ele).

    The idea to remove the 50% hp condition on deaths door sounds like it could be just enough. With the „more dmg against low hp“ this should keep the ability in check.

    Another idea; If conflux would buff all dot‘s and not just death based ones, there would also be the opportunity for more offsouls with harb‘s piercing beam or chloro‘s witheting vine. Chloro has some potential already with natural awerness working off of death based abilities.

    I am glad to see adjustments beeing made on what people propose!

    EDIT: Inquisitor having really good dps as long as they can continuosly keep up their buffs and debuffs is exactly what I want to see from a specc where you have to manage all those things. Would like to see similar strength from warlock and harb.
    Last edited by Subjekt; 11-29-2019 at 03:58 AM.

  14. #89
    Prophet of Telara
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    @Shas and Hokhmah
    If you find the time can you do a parse with rogue and primalist with the new PTS CP cape so we can see where mage and cleric stand in comparison? Thanks in advance
    Last edited by Bamul; 11-29-2019 at 09:25 AM.

  15. #90
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    First thanks for the new cape , it's great to have the same gear as live for more accurate parsing !!

    After testing the new clerics change, i will say that inqui is in the right dps spot, it deal the damage we expect for a range immobile spec.

    PTS Update - 11/15/19 - Mage and Inquisitor Adjustments-61inqui8druid7rs3.jpgPTS Update - 11/15/19 - Mage and Inquisitor Adjustments-cleric-stats2.png

    1.482m dps , could be a bit less could be a bit more depending on crits, is what we can aim for range specs. it don't impact PvP so that's great.

    As for mage , pyro/warlock/harb , it still lack a bit of dps compare to others specs. Warlock and pyro could aim for 1.480-1.5m dps like inquisitor and harb should aim for 1.550m like druid or prima melee.

    Warlock having conflux impacting all type of dots could be a nice change for off souls diversity. I'll propose again doubling the base damage of necrosis in necromancer , so it will become a viable off soul for warlock while improving necro dps for open world content.

    For pyro, currently it rely too much on the legendary elemental forces , which is for me , not a good idea , we already have elementalist for this. Maybe reducing fulminate cd to 7sec and it's damage by 50% could boost the spec since atm we don't use it at all.
    Another option could be increasing Fireball dot damage from 75% to 125% and make it stack 2 times. It will likely boost pyro at the right dps lvl with only fireball change.

    Harb lack a lot's of dps to be at the same lvl of others melee specs.
    One option I already suggested was to make blade buff working in the same way as Cleric one : When you have at least 1 stack of eternal , blade buff are boosted by the eternal stack , when it's consumed , blade buff loose this bonus. It could give easily 100k dps to harbinger with this change.
    Couldn't tempest winds act like nysyr ? I mean when used 5sec after Storm shroud , boost it's damage by 100%. Atm tempest winds is about 120-140k dps , making a change like this could boost harb by quite a bit of dps.

    @bamu , melee prima in comparison with PTS cape. 1.577m dps
    PTS Update - 11/15/19 - Mage and Inquisitor Adjustments-melee.jpg
    Range hot pot spec is about 1.506m dps. (about the same as inqui)
    PTS Update - 11/15/19 - Mage and Inquisitor Adjustments-hotpot.jpg
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
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