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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PTS Update - 11/15/19 - Mage and Inquisitor Adjustments

  1. #31
    Shield of Telara Dizbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    @Avathar Give Inq lowkey some critpower in the higher tree, like Wl, Mm, Ele, Rb, Maelstorm have. The exceptionaly high base crit will synnegize well. Clerics gimp around 40%-45% cp while RBs go up to 60% (15% from tree).
    ----------------

    ^ This is a large issue.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylaen View Post
    It could be usefull to do a bit of pvp yourself Avatar before puting all those change live like inqui Judical Privilege nerf.
    All those pve changes are for pve concern where all your pve base player is doing the same 2 years old raid like zombi and when you know there will not be new pve content, those buffs are questionable.
    Gamingo "goal" was to give more "quality of life" so perhaps play the specs yourself outside of raid content, even if it's not in pvp content, try the specs in dungeon content then you will see why druid is still bad, not even talking about cleric healing specs, or defiler, etc.
    All the poster here know their class but mainly do pve raid, test spec on a dummy that never die with no switch target, etc.etc.
    When it's prima getting nerf for the same reason (%based hp nerf abilities) you pvper are happy, when it's your class it's Bad ?? What a dumb mentality, if it's a bug , it's a bug and was change accordingly.
    As for druid , maybe learn how to handle PvP content , as i already said druid is more than fine for PvE , specially at this damage level. Druid isn't a bad spec, players are bad at playing melee and druid in pve.
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
    Pseudo support, Prima raiding specs
    Discord : Zyggiha#2277 , I can help for everything related to primalist , feel free to ask.

  3. #33
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    [double post deleted]
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 11-21-2019 at 06:19 PM.
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
    Pseudo support, Prima raiding specs
    Discord : Zyggiha#2277 , I can help for everything related to primalist , feel free to ask.

  4. #34
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    players are bad at playing melee and druid in pve.
    Everyone starts somewhere, just don't forget to buff *Through Step*

    Hierosolyma | Katane | Azuren | Jeru | Syenn | Shas | Shaslol | Shastroll

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    When it's prima getting nerf for the same reason (%based hp nerf abilities) you pvper are happy, when it's your class it's Bad ?? What a dumb mentality, if it's a bug , it's a bug and was change accordingly.
    As for druid , maybe learn how to handle PvP content , as i already said druid is more than fine for PvE , specially at this damage level. Druid isn't a bad spec, players are bad at playing melee and druid in pve.
    Hokhmah you pvp once every 6 month. Inqui need defensive cooldown to have time to put all dots/buff,etc were other class can dispell the dots (heals, rogues,etc) or burst you with nothing required in few seconds. Other souls have defensive cooldown but it's not healing cooldown like inqui, it's some like Ranger or Nightblade : do you nerf their defensive cooldwon so they took 90% of the damage instead of none for ranger or 50% for nighblade? No. So inqui nerf to his defensive cooldown was not needed (even more after legendary fairy healer nerf).
    For druid you read half of my post. Druid target switching is sh it. The buff damage should be on you and not on your target. Do you tried druid in pvp ? you put your buff damage on a target that die in 3s then you are done for 30s. The fairy seer pet is not tanky at all and die in few seconds in pvp and when it dies, your Conduit of Nature buff is gone. When you want to burst you have to be in melee : try to get in melee in the actual meta and do 5 Essence Strike when people move faster than you, teleport and you get shot by 3 range. The actual druid could be good if there were some "quality of life" buff to druid (damage self buff to the druid and not the target, 15mor20m range to Essence Strike, etc.). For pve of course where nothing move fast and there is poor target switching(i mean not every 7seconds) druid can be competitive.
    You are a great help for community with prima specs etc, but i suggest you to try more pvp before answering.
    I'm not like a kid whose toy has been confiscated, i start cleric/inqui when nobody was playing it in pvp, build it up. Then patch came with nerf of Legendary Fairy healer, then now Judical Privilege which were quite necessary to have time to apply dot/debuff/buff on your target while taking tons of damages. I will still play cleric. I just said calmly to Avathar to go more in depth with his thinking on class balance when he actually don't pvp.
    The inqui buff that will go live will just make it fine for pve but for pvp it will just be the standart damage dealer with an even more powerfull agressive inquisition than before and some will do fine now with inqui like the average MM player.
    Last edited by sylaen; 11-21-2019 at 02:38 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Everyone starts somewhere, just don't forget to buff *Through Step*
    After 2 year maybe more earing this , they havennt started yet ? Back when player knew how to play melee , i was seeing a lot more druid in raids. When magical debuff wasn't needed , most cleric played druid in raid where i was.
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
    Pseudo support, Prima raiding specs
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  7. #37
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    Old people go, a few new ones join in.

    Hierosolyma | Katane | Azuren | Jeru | Syenn | Shas | Shaslol | Shastroll

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylaen View Post
    Hokhmah you pvp once every 6 month. Inqui need defensive cooldown to have time to put all dots/buff,etc were other class can dispell the dots (heals, rogues,etc) or burst you with nothing required in few seconds. Other souls have defensive cooldown but it's not healing cooldown like inqui, it's some like Ranger or Nightblade : do you nerf their defensive cooldwon so they took 90% of the damage instead of none for ranger or 50% for nighblade? No. So inqui nerf to his defensive cooldown was not needed (even more after legendary fairy healer nerf).
    For druid you read half of my post. Druid target switching is sh it. The buff damage should be on you and not on your target. Do you tried druid in pvp ? you put your buff damage on a target that die in 3s then you are done for 30s. The fairy seer pet is not tanky at all and die in few seconds in pvp and when it dies, your Conduit of Nature buff is gone. When you want to burst you have to be in melee : try to get in melee in the actual meta and do 5 Essence Strike when people move faster than you, teleport and you get shot by 3 range. The actual druid could be good if there were some "quality of life" buff to druid (damage self buff to the druid and not the target, 15mor20m range to Essence Strike, etc.). For pve of course where nothing move fast and there is poor target switching(i mean not every 7seconds) druid can be competitive.
    You are a great help for community with prima specs etc, but i suggest you to try more pvp before answering.
    I'm not like a kid whose toy has been confiscated, i start cleric/inqui when nobody was playing it in pvp, build it up. Then patch came with nerf of Legendary Fairy healer, then now Judical Privilege which were quite necessary to have time to apply dot/debuff/buff on your target while taking tons of damages. I will still play cleric. I just said calmly to Avathar to go more in depth with his thinking on class balance when he actually don't pvp.
    The inqui buff that will go live will just make it fine for pve but for pvp it will just be the standart damage dealer with an even more powerfull agressive inquisition than before and some will do fine now with inqui like the average MM player.
    I do PvP but not with my prima. So i know how it's in PvP. When i played against you on my prima, you never used any fear or control on me. Maybe now you do, but those help a lot instead of a defensive cd.
    Every other healing cds based around %maximul hp was lower to PvP healing reduction. Inqui cd is one of them even if he need it. It's the same for shifting wind, flash of the phoenix, they got nerfed even when lot's of player needed them.
    As for druid in PvP , sure it's bad, but like lot's of others spec good in pve and not in PvP, or the opposite. Druid is Bad as target Switch like lot's of melee spec, but those specs are still used in raids like the prima melee one since i play it and do a great dps even when disconnect is bad(need one dot only usable in Fury for the damage and let him go for 3sec. There isn't worse usable debuff). Learning encounter is one thing you should do in pve , and every type of spec will be playable.
    I'll say same as you, you do raid every 6 month in a decent enough group to see a real fight, so take time to learn every fight and you'll see how druid is easy there.
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 11-21-2019 at 03:51 PM.
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
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    Discord : Zyggiha#2277 , I can help for everything related to primalist , feel free to ask.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    I do PvP but not with my prima. So i know how it's in PvP. When i played against you on my prima, you never used any fear or control on me. Maybe now you do, but those help a lot instead of a defensive cd.
    Every other healing cds based around %maximul hp was lower to PvP healing reduction. Inqui cd is one of them even if he need it. It's the same for shifting wind, flash of the phoenix, they got nerfed even when lot's of player needed them.
    As for druid in PvP , sure it's bad, but like lot's of others spec good in pve and not in PvP, or the opposite. Druid is Bad as target Switch like lot's of melee spec, but those specs are still used in raids like the prima melee one since i play it and do a great dps even when disconnect is bad(need one dot only usable in Fury for the damage and let him go for 3sec. There isn't worse usable debuff). Learning encounter is one thing you should do in pve , and every type of spec will be playable.
    I'll say same as you, you do raid every 6 month, so take Time to learn every fight and you'll see how druid is easy there.
    I'm not sure if you are serious about the first part about the controls/fear but wathever you entered pvp with your prima when it was top and played so few i don't even know what to say.
    Of course nerf all the spells when you pvp so few....
    "As for druid , maybe learn how to handle PvP content" and then "As for druid in PvP , sure it's bad, but like lot's of others spec good in pve and not in PvP" : you confuse everything switching from pvp to pve, etc. Please try melee in druid then compare it to warlord, assa, bladedancer even if meleee is not a thing anymore in this actual meta IN PVP (i will not tell para because it's 80% range).
    I'm sure you are doing great in pve, i told you you are a great help for community for guides, etc. I only question Avathar about these change in pvp. I don't even pve on my druid. I learnt the rotations. I've done the pve content with my warrior and no i will not enter this poor raid anymore or farm the pve stuff to do it with my cleric because it's boring as hell. Fine with you all doing the same boring thing for 2 years. And for my 2 cents knowing a raid for 2 years, how the fight works, etc, would not it been more fresh to be surprise by new bosses, new abilities and adjust your rotations to those new encounter instead of doing the exact same fight all weeks ? Like a bit in pvp when you have to adapt to map, the class/souls you face, etc.

    tldr : try pvp more (and pure melee if you really want to see it) and don't take offense for every single thing i ask for pvp which is fair play (like you ask fair class balance for dps in pve)
    Last edited by sylaen; 11-21-2019 at 04:40 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylaen View Post
    I'm not sure if you are serious about the first part about the controls/fear but wathever you entered pvp with your prima when it was top and played so few i don't even know what to say.
    Of course nerf all the spells when you pvp so few....
    "As for druid , maybe learn how to handle PvP content" and then "As for druid in PvP , sure it's bad, but like lot's of others spec good in pve and not in PvP" : you confuse everything switching from pvp to pve, etc. Please try melee in druid then compare it to warlord, assa, bladedancer even if meleee is not a thing anymore in this actual meta (i will not tell para because it's 80% range).
    I'm sure you are doing great in pve, i told you you are a great help for community for guides, etc. I only question Avathar about these change in pvp. I don't even pve on my druid. I learnt the rotations. I've done the pve content with my warrior and no i will not enter this poor raid anymore or farm the pve stuff to do it with my cleric because it's boring as hell. Fine with you all doing the same boring thing for 2 years. And for my 2 cents knowing a raid for 2 years, how the fight works, etc, would not it been more fresh to be surprise by new bosses, new abilities and adjust your rotations to those new encounter instead of doing the exact same fight all weeks ? Like a bit in pvp when you have to adapt to map, the class/souls you face, etc.

    tldr : try pvp more (and pure melee if you really want to see it) and don't take offense for every single thing i ask for pvp which is fair play (like you ask fair class balance for dps in pve)
    I just said what happened last time i pvped on EU against you. I don't like PvP even if i play it as melee PL so yes i know how melee feel there. It's like you saying you don't like pve but also saying that druid is bad there, where it's really good once you know everything for PvE. I don't take offence over PvP, but over the inqui cd being a bug which deserved the patch like every other cd like this one. Let's stop here i think it's not the right place for this and it won't help more the cleric/mage balance ;)
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 11-21-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
    Pseudo support, Prima raiding specs
    Discord : Zyggiha#2277 , I can help for everything related to primalist , feel free to ask.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    I just said what happened last time i pvped on EU against you. I don't like PvP even if i play it as melee PL so yes i know how melee feel there. It's like you saying you don't like pve but also saying that druid is bad there, where it's really good once you know everything for PvE. I don't take offence over PvP, but over the inqui cd being a bug which deserved the patch like every other cd like this one. Let's stop here i think it's not the right place for this and it won't help more the cleric/mage balance ;)
    if you keep reading diagonally yes better stop here

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylaen View Post
    if you keep reading diagonally yes better stop here
    And you , like lot's of people in this game , not being able to understand what a bug is and why it need a patch even on underperforming classes, and not seeing through another person opinion. You remind me aedyn on last cleric patch (no offence aedyn ! )
    Enjoy crying over PvP nerf like lot's of pvper in the current game
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 11-21-2019 at 04:55 PM.
    Hokhmah@Brutwacht , Zyggiha@Brutwacht, Ahiggyz@Brutwacht
    Pseudo support, Prima raiding specs
    Discord : Zyggiha#2277 , I can help for everything related to primalist , feel free to ask.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    And you , like lot's of people in this game , not being able to understand what a bug is and why it need a patch even on underperforming classes, and not seeing through another person opinion. You remind me aedyn on last cleric patch (no offence aedyn ! )
    Enjoy crying over PvP nerf like lot's of pvper in the current game

    You are obsess by fixing "bug" that allow some souls to perform in the actual meta for the sake of this being a bug and you don't even actually pvp and this bug dont even affect your pve so what's the goal ? If Avathar is waiting to your dummy parse and shas's one to adjust everything, then you and Shas do some pvp to meat the grave a couple of time, parse with some spec in pvp and you will see you will find other glitches/bug that need fix.
    And like i told you i asked calmly to Avathar to think before patching. I'm not crying lol. When i saw the patch i was just "ok ok deal with it". It's just that i'ts not going in the good direction (FOR PVP)
    Last edited by sylaen; 11-21-2019 at 05:24 PM.

  14. #44
    Rift Master Shas's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/Ycym8i7hjcA?t=340

    :eggthink: can we have those in a discord channel and make a weekly podcast?
    Then we can laugh about it when content is around and we all have kids already.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylaen View Post
    Shas
    Did pvp lately. It was a ****show of runspeed buffs and people jumping around, randomly tab doting until one blob makes a mistake. Lots of Inquisitors which clearly combined BoD and BoJ in one macro. Lots of backpaddling Locks and lots of Paragons spamming Shock Pulse. Eye of the sotorm was usually enough to trigger most people's
    Break Free auto-macros. Melee feels more like jousting since your are likely to overshoot with all those runspeeds going on.
    If you want to win Karthagrat, control the middle with manugo + pocketheal. After 2-3 minutes, every attacker will oneshot himself.

    Was in EU tho can't tell for NA.

    To the Pve dummy stuff: Lots of people called for class changes yadda. Now there is a open post with a dev 100% reading through the comments and there are .. how many people giving Feedback ? Raise your voice for pvpers - but not in the screeching scream of a butthurt snowflake. I always supported Eternal fixed adaptations to not break the rezor edge which is pvp balancing. Inq's base resist pen goes far further in pvp than pve.
    Inq Playstyle was (has ever been) that of a spamming Vulture, pulling it all and hiding for cd resets.
    The 30s AI will not make you op in 2v1s but may gets you off the cliff.

    Goal is to have a nice experience with Rift - Claw of Agony and not to find out 'who is right' using tribal methods.
    Glad to have the pvp crew in on boat. I had friends giving Rift a try mid SL but expected more stradegy in pvp and eventualy left it. (one friend went something 25:0 Lock on his first ever game on 60 lol)

    In the end, Break Free and Fading Light should be disabled or at least heavily nerfed in pvp (5 min cd) to make an impact play and not just qol.
    Last edited by Shas; 11-21-2019 at 05:53 PM.

    Hierosolyma | Katane | Azuren | Jeru | Syenn | Shas | Shaslol | Shastroll

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    I just said what happened last time i pvped on EU against you. I don't like PvP even if i play it as melee PL so yes i know how melee feel there. It's like you saying you don't like pve but also saying that druid is bad there, where it's really good once you know everything for PvE. I don't take offence over PvP, but over the inqui cd being a bug which deserved the patch like every other cd like this one. Let's stop here i think it's not the right place for this and it won't help more the cleric/mage balance ;)
    I don't see much clerics doing well with druid in PvE and I have information for 7 raids per week. Not a single cleric actually uses Druid in any of those raids although several attempted to but because of wanting to clear content fast as possible they still choose shaman being more favorable in the current meta.Druid is not a very easy spec to adapt to neither is inquisitor.

    Don't be short sighted. Realize if you take a top performing raid into BoS and clear bosses in less than 3 mins. you may become blind and inconsiderate to the fact that you are doing that content in a way that it was not meant to be experienced.. Basically removing all if not most of the mechanics a fresh progressive raid with mostly T1 would experience. If the raid encounter is now closely mimicking a boss dummy since you are over qualified and geared for that content it is no longer a good test of practical use and performance of a soul.

    I think that is your biggest problem. I always get irked when I see your post because it is almost like you are only caring about yourself. "I play melee" so everyone should, while everyone I know who plays primalist performs better at range. You are an outlier to the max extent to be honest. So is a cleric who chooses to play druid over shaman. Ease of use is subjective from player to player. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE AVERAGES. That is why there is a grading system and a score card. If the average druid is far below the performance of the best druid.. in this case the best case scenario happened for that star player.. and the other classes average of other classes in similar roles are much closer together then Druid is not performing well for the average player meaning that it isn't designed for the current meta regardless of wether you have no problems with druid. Even if you find it easy to use druid you are the outlier and using an outlier to justify the state of class balance is wrong.

    The current meta for range inquisitor adapted to MM would have MM reinvented to have pedestal back but even in a much harsher way. They would lose half or more than half of their dps if they had to moved. They would also lose nearly all of their AE capacity. The current meta for druid adapted to primalist will force you to lose most of your dps if you can't melee, black out your entire utility bar or waste utility on your burst block. You will be also incredibly slow and only have charges and no blink forward. Not to mention getting your life eaten away to maintain dps.

    Inquisitor and Druid are not designed for the current meta. Defiler as well since it kills itself in PvP and does lackluster dps. It is truely the only spec that offers mobility while dpsing for a range soul which is greatly needed for raid content to not be gated by design constraints like what has been done to make cleric work in MANY bosses by making encounters grant range to all classes regardless of them playing in melee or range. This was only pragmatic solution to keep "only" cleric viable at the time. Warrior was offering too much dps and healing in their all in wonder spec, the other classes had good range souls, ele, nb/sab, multiple primalist range specs.

    I know I am not perfect for advice and maybe I don't provide the essential data that the devs are concerned with atm but I have experience. I know that for instance, if you start off with cleric in a new progressive raid.. most will have more problems to adapt over other classes if the raids are developed with free thinking devs who have a vision for a boss encounter and don't want to have to change that vision to cater to a stagnated range spec or a full uptime, upkeep melee spec both which have target switching issues. What you are telling raid devs is to make bosses behave more like a dummy so a class can adapt better because their playability isn't good in the current meta as other classes and that is just no good. Or in the worse case scenario for raid leads to cave into the pressure of their raiders to replace "that" player because they are deemed a carry for this new progression content. If all other roles are locked in but dps and your raid dev decided to overlook the stagnation of inquisitor.. and now you are in full movement 90% of a fight and heavily impacts melee dps. What soul does cleric have to fall back on.

    As for primalist.. they have a range soul that for average and above average users actually, hands down, performs close to their melee spec or outparses it in practical scenarios. They also have several lower parsing specs that are not being used but still do solid amount of DPS over something like 61 defiler does. Most primalist and rogues I feel are just seeking changes not for balance considerations but just because they are bored of "winning" with the same souls and want something else to win with it. Yes, cleric is good enough for the current raid especially if your raid is overqualified and geared to handle it. And really if the dev wants to kill off cleric for future raid content all they have to do is nerf salvation.. develop raids with high damage 0 target encounters of immune phases. It really is SO ridiculously easy right now to knock clerics lights out .. or force them into the worse case scenario tanking.. and that is only if they were developed for tanking in the first place.

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