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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PTS Update - 7/22/19 - Cleric Adjustments

  1. #31
    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator bctrainers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarleaf View Post
    Hey I just wanna double-check that these were only dps changes and not tank changes, right?

    I've been seeing crazy dps numbers while tanking. Either I've just never noticed this or else the dps meter is broken or maybe it's not acting right because of the recent crashes?

    (fyi, I'm using the pre-set tanking spec that comes with Rift)

    For example, here is a screenshot showing the dps meter saying 700k dps? O.o Sheesh, that rivals my shaman spec. (the meter is down in the lower right corner)

    https://postimg.cc/fVrLkhCY
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  2. #32
    Prophet of Telara Refuge's Avatar
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    Fwob approves of these changes, but Fwob can't test if they're enough because he can't transfer to PTS...

    Fwob is excited about buffs but is 100% convinced that the inquisitor changes will not close the gap to rogues or primalists (hard to tell with shamans or druids though). 2 min cd to 1 min wil not even produce 200k extra.. neither will EoL. Fwob is also doubtful any internal tests were performed considering druid mana issues would have been noticed.

    Fwob disapproves of those whining at the complexity of inquisitor, which it really isn't. A complete lack of awareness of expectations when they're comparing it to brain dead 2 or 3 button builds. You cretins need to disappear before you spoil our fun too.

    However Fwob does think that a build like inq; the only viable raid dps build for all fights, completely focused on ST and sustained fights should be comparatively high on dps meters which it isn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phantomsiege View Post
    This is ok, but DEVs if you go through with it please please please also consider reducing damage by half as well at least for pvp. AI is already cancer @ 1min CD. With the RC decrease being blown up every 15secs with little to no reaction won't be fun, Inquisitor has to much kit to be that OP at range.

    Great to see some cleric love btw
    And you sir, Fwob only has complete and utter disgust for you. Learn to interrupt.
    Last edited by Refuge; 07-24-2019 at 05:58 AM.
    Fwob - Zaviel

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Fwob approves of these changes, but Fwob can't test if they're enough because he can't transfer to PTS...

    Fwob is excited about buffs but is 100% convinced that the inquisitor changes will not close the gap to rogues or primalists (hard to tell with shamans or druids though). 2 min cd to 1 min wil not even produce 200k extra.. neither will EoL. Fwob is also doubtful any internal tests were performed considering druid mana issues would have been noticed.

    Fwob disapproves of those whining at the complexity of inquisitor, which it really isn't. A complete lack of awareness of expectations when they're comparing it to brain dead 2 or 3 button builds. You cretins need to disappear before you spoil our fun too.

    However Fwob does think that a build like inq; the only viable raid dps build for all fights, completely focused on ST and sustained fights should be comparatively high on dps meters which it isn't.




    And you sir, Fwob only has complete and utter disgust for you. Learn to interrupt.

    First I have played inquisitor for 8 years so my "whining" is valid. The build up for Inquisitor has lengthened greatly with legendaries and it was already the highest prior to that.

    You have to admit in PvP playing a very complex build with lots of build up is at a disadvantage to a the simpler specs. I don't mind the complexity its casting spells that don't do any or much damage many times to then be able to DPS I think should be fixed. I'm not sure why any cleric would even argue against this suggestion.

  4. #34
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    So at the moment the statements about Inquisitorare

    1) It sucks taking so long to beef up before the dmg starts

    2) It's too strong in pvp (where you can outsource the buildup on other targets)

    -> the Inq PVP playstyle, about purging and debuffing your prey before oneshoting it, was more or less like that ever since.

    The only PvE difference is that OTHER specs got a tuning package while Inquisitor remained that dot-carpet parser in a world of responsive and flexible allrounders; and the only competitor in one-target-stay-on-target bs is - well - Scald-MW-FB

    - Inquisitor has very high resist-pen (20% Scrutiny), which Vulcanist does not.
    - Shaman has 30% pen with Wear and Tear (but dmg uptime is limited by being a glasscannon-melee)

    -> amp Base dmg, nerf armor/resist pen

    Hierosolyma | Katane | Azuren | Jeru | Syenn | Shas | Shaslol | Shastroll

  5. #35
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    Inquisitor playstyle is good, quite easy when you know it for pve but not really adapted for pvp or only when you have some solid heals on your side that let you have the time to dot etc (a dot spec who can spread other dots help to not get all your dot dispelled)
    Changing JP like some asked will make it even more weaker. Other spec like nightblade, etc etc have some cooldwon to reduce damage taken to survive, and for inqui the cooldwon is JP. Without it and even with it you will get your *** hit severely.
    The change to 61 inqui legendary will help having more frequent burst and help in team fight.

    For shaman the changes may give like 25% more damage to shaman but the burst can always be dispell so thats quite a big problem lol (or you can try to cover it with one dot buuuuuuutttttt........not works all the time)
    For druid good change for pve i guess but for pvp it's amore melee than shaman so it will be quite hard.

    We will seeeeeeee

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesDSneed View Post
    First I have played inquisitor for 8 years so my "whining" is valid. The build up for Inquisitor has lengthened greatly with legendaries and it was already the highest prior to that..
    Those players don't make any sense. The buff, debuff, dot build up and maintenance is why you have damage abilities that are stacking and a few abilities doing most of the damage. They are cliche because they argue about this while also not realizing why it's happening. Those types of players will never be satisfied because they can't put two and two together. Like pressing one ability procs several others is practically the same as stacking buffs in ogcd.

    Their fascination with keeping cleric with a long ramp up to start dealing significant dps, what they call fun, is something devs have tried to deal with in the past because it wasn't fun for the majority of players. They have made buffs apply other buffs, even 1 hour buffs, buffs became unpurgeable as well. Even classes with a lot of dots get to apply them all at once and in multiple ways. Buffs even lasting through death was added later on. For some reason they felt one way with all the other classes but left cleric out so now cleric is left with all these long build up and debuff,buff sequence in the rotation. The wheelchair and crippling effect is the other classes don't have much hassle with buff sequences. Many of the classes come out the gate nearly ready to fully burst you down in PvP as a result.

    That is why I don't consider inquisitor in PvP a big threat. A boost RFS or Thresher Maw comes in more frequently and has higher burst than a single interruptable AI even after the changes. From what I can remember every 4 secs, or every 10-12 secs for burst or 30 secs for insane burst for these classes depending on spec. And warriors can burst for 100K+ in 1-2 secs and you can't interrupt them lol. The change to AI will make cleric more playable but far from an even playing field.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 07-24-2019 at 03:11 PM.

  7. #37
    Rift Disciple Xydru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    A boost RFS or Thresher Maw comes in more frequently and has higher burst than a single interruptable AI even after the changes. From what I can remember every 4 secs, or every 10-12 secs for burst or 30 secs for insane burst for these classes depending on spec. And warriors can burst for 100K+ in 1-2 secs and you can't interrupt them lol. The change to AI will make cleric more playable but far from an even playing field.
    Those abilities (rather, the legendary buffs that make those abilities hit as hard as they do), along with BD, need toning down in PvP. I see zero reason to assume every class should be able to do that kind of damage. if you go down that road, why not make every healer capable of healing as much as Farseer? Make every tank as unkillable as pre-nerf Titan/RS/Justifier. Nah. They need nerfs.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xydru View Post
    Those abilities (rather, the legendary buffs that make those abilities hit as hard as they do), along with BD, need toning down in PvP. I see zero reason to assume every class should be able to do that kind of damage. if you go down that road, why not make every healer capable of healing as much as Farseer? Make every tank as unkillable as pre-nerf Titan/RS/Justifier. Nah. They need nerfs.
    It is not about hitting as hard as they do. It is about the time it takes to get to a point to hit that hard. Inquisitor with all the buffs/debuffs/dots on a single target will hit hard just not as frequently but hard. What they would do to nerf that for the other classes is unrealistic. It would be like asking for them to do 10x the effort by changing almost every other classes legendary and mastery buff or passive damage increase ability into GCD buff, and/or cd debuff (so the damage can't carry over) to another target.

    The people who don't get why the rotation is bad don't realize it is because it is "dumb down" in reverse. You spend less than 10% dps keeping up a bunch of low hitting debuffs/buffs etc. while more than 60 or 70% comes from a few abilities that add passive or stacking damage. Legendary SH = Sanction Heretic+Sanction passively cast Vex with 1 button. Legendary BoR that passively cast a Bolt of Judgment, and BoD + Corruption casting itself more often or stacking via AI and RC etc. Keep in mind logically if you have an extensive buff sequence you will be carrying that over rather than in a competitive soul who can carry over most its damage since it doesn't require extended buff/dot/debuff sequence.

    They may as well just make the next channel after using RC cast all three channels at the same time so you have more damage abilities that stack passively to boost Inq low dps. Removing some of the GCD buffs will allow them to actually flesh out a better ST rotation and bring back the usefulness of other channels again. The DPS of inquisitor is quite poor so no matter what they do in order to get it up something needs to be changed and the way I see it from both sides is dumbing down one or the other. I personally rather spend more time using high hitting damage abilities than buffing a few of them up. To each their own. The changes won't help boost sustained DPS by much and it is the most played spec for raiding and in PvP. It is an okay change for PvP. The change to shaman and druid are good but the dps drops enormously from disconnects since they have no abilities to force some of their major buffs/debuffs or damage abilities to become range even momentarily. Druid seems to be parsing a bit higher than shaman but not by much. Most of the high-end raiders will just have to work with shaman or druid if they want the opportunity to get more competitive DPS if nothing else changes.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 07-25-2019 at 04:53 AM.

  9.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #39
    Rift Team Avathar's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback on the Cleric changes. We are going over the feedback now and will continue to make adjustments and push new changes up as they are completed.

    PTS has been updated again today with the following changes:

    Cleric:
    Fixed a bug that caused Legendary Shadow’s Touch to grant a 20% damage increase to all Cabalist abilities.

    Primalist:
    Reduced the amount healed by Fortune Protection by 25% in PvP
    Reduced the amount healed by Legendary Fortune Protection by 25% in PvP
    Reduced the healing boost granted by Primal Avatar: Ouroboros to be in line with other healing abilities in PvP
    Reduced the amount healed by Impending Fate by 25% in PvP
    Reduced the amount healed by Insight by 25% in PvP

    Misc:
    The EP3 Gear Merchant now seels an Eternal Weapon Box, this box grants the Eternal Weapon for your current calling.

  10. #40
    Shield of Telara Dizbo's Avatar
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    Hi as of 2:50pm EST, downloaded patch but cannot access the PTS
    PTS Update - 7/22/19 - Cleric Adjustments-pts-07-25-2019-250pm-est.jpg
    Last edited by Dizbo; 07-25-2019 at 11:00 AM.

  11. #41
    Prophet of Telara Refuge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Those players don't make any sense
    You may as well talk directly to me. Don't try to belittle me, I've been playing since this expansion, but that clearly didn't stop me trump you in terms of how to play a Cleric. I think that's quite evident now. Are you seriously going to tell me 1 button specs are more fun than inquisitor?

    There's nothing wrong with the actual rotation, and there's nothing wrong with build up souls, it's the fact it doesn't do enough damage to warrant the build up. I'm not fan of off soul dmg boosters, but most classes have that now, but having 3 dots really isn't an issue! Honestly how can you think it is?! If you want a quick multi target spec, then shaman it is. Both need to be buffed, both are being buffed.

    Then you're talking about how we don't compare to warriors etc. in PvP, ye we don't because warriors are utterly broken. Making everyone deal the same dps as warrior would only work if they reintroduced healing again, otherwise people are going to get 1 shotted all the time which isn't fun. Having a class that essentially 2 shots in PvP without any counter is just bad class design, this is a nerf issue, not a buff issue.

    PvP wasn't half bad for clerics pre Faerie nerf, I could hold my own ground in almost all 1vs1's, except for a couple of veteran rogues and warriors. People didn't give clerics enough time to build up the gear or get the proper spec, then decided to complain way too soon.

    The essence of cleric in PvP is to somewhat play the long game with cc, or go for the 2 min burst if you can ensure that there won't be interrupts. We had plenty of sustainability pre faerie nerf, and that gave us enough time to put 3 dots up (4 if you include seal of pain but this can be held off). Now that Faerie has been nerfed, I don't play PvP anymore, because that destroyed the essence of how a cleric should be played in PvP.

    It's not all about the damage, healing should play an important role in this too, but unfortunately healing keeps getting slammed to the ground.

    Why oh why are you trying to make every class play exactly the same, instead of trying to make their uniqueness flourish. You are literally the that exact kind of player who destroyed the essence of WoW and continues to destroy the essence of Rift. I despise the way you think in every way possible. Next time you refer to me in a post, refer to me directly, but don't expect me to take you too seriously, until you actually can play Cleric properly.
    Last edited by Refuge; 07-25-2019 at 11:03 AM.
    Fwob - Zaviel

  12. #42
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    Default It's like rogue stealth

    You should change your Inquisitor's name to "Spanish" so you can have an advantage in warfronts, because no one will expect you.

    /lamejokestobreakthetension
    70 Cleric Sarleaf@Hailol, BoS tank, PvP healer
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  13. #43
    Prophet of Telara Refuge's Avatar
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    Haha, yeee I lost my cool, can't sustain this pretty face 100% of the time.
    Last edited by Refuge; 07-25-2019 at 11:44 AM.
    Fwob - Zaviel

  14. #44
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    Pulled this from my personal log of notes on the game. I am trying to collect all the bugs I find while 10 boxing and changes that should happen. Covering most things including crafting. Here is my cleric stuff.


    Class stuff:

    Cleric 65 punishing strike mastery is not soul neutral. It is forcing people to use druid for the damage bonus. Other classes have soul neutral options. Should be off GCD just like other classes. Think about this, how can a defiler ever have enough time to use soul stream or punishing strike without losing dps?

    62 Masteries lack relevant choices for many souls

    Cleric:
    In general, needs to be rewarded for the damage loss of holding a shield.
    -
    Defiler:

    Summary: Defiler needs less dots or faster ways to get them up for world and dungeon fighting. For raiding it needs consistent dmg with a reason and time to cast the DDs like Somatic Desecration.


    Unstable Transformation lasts 1min with 1min CD ala Dervish. Reduces global CDs. Take away the no CD on Explosive Rage. Reduce the damage reduction. Having defiler have the form out longer will drive people to purchase the soul as it would be unique.

    Combine the "Bond of" spell line. Why does Bond of pain have 1min CD?


    Casting Somatic Desecration increases speed of next dots ticks. Defiler's base DD that is barely ever used.

    Defiler self heals are nerfed in pvp but the life to takes to cast these spells stayed the same. Needs fix.

    Consider giving Beacon AOE taunt. I am a huge fan of defiler and the beacon.

    Legendary Pain Transmission should apply rage dots on every target it hits. As currently it doesn't hit hard and legendary just makes it give 5 rage stacks instead of 1.

    Legendary Rage Extraction: Tack on an increase 5% dmg to this.

    Legendary Aggressive Avarice: should heal group or at least self and beacon. Maybe beacon should receive all heals the cleric gets.

    Fix the scaling with Greeds call. It's damage is scaling with gear and deals it to the player.

    Marrow's harvest off GCD.

    Idea for later time- defile corpses to increase dps, defiler has an ability to burn all corpses near him/her for a damage boost. 30 sec CD stacks 5 times lower in the tree. Lasts 5min
    --
    Inq:

    Inq still has a 2min dps CD. This needs to be 1min.

    Casting bolt of retribution causes immediate dot tick of scourge. Leveling out the burstiness of the soul.

    Very little potential for this soul to be anything other than 61 pt currently.
    -

    Justicar:

    Justicar mien of leadership needs to be earlier in the tree to allow for hybrids like the other classes.

    Mien of leadership: lessen the nerf on the healing done by other souls or remove it for more potential hybrids. As compared to mage, primalist, warrior, cleric gets screwed.

    Justicar should give some ability somehow to deal damage when blocking.




    Cabalist:

    Legendary Shadow's Touch: Make the damage increase in line with Primalist or others with things like this. Example Derv Seismic. increase 3 next air cutters. Could be like Shadow's touch, increases 3 next death spells by large amount.

    Unbounded Obliteration needs to be on par with Condensed Obliteration. As right now, even if there were 10 mobs, most Cabalists may keep up Condensed Obliteration bc of the free bound fate.

    Dark water should always hit more than one target imo.

    Druid
    Natural Force needs to be on the player and not the monster. Maybe Natures edict buff needs to be on player and consider making it just a buff with no strike. So it would be more like the RIftblade, which is really where this souls should go.

    All life abilities now give Natural Force.

    Trickster's bolt needs something like a movement speed or Dot effect attached to it. Something to help the fact Druid is not as good at range.

    Resounding blow needs to increase Pet's damage as well.

    Consider making Nature's Censure ranged when legendary.




    Oracle:
    This soul is barely played. I use it when ten boxing sometimes but with a strong group, why would you?

    It needs the capability to deal damage or heal. Right now Tactbard demolishes it and Defihealer replaces it.

    I think increasing every emblem's damage and giving them a good damaging spam ability that heals the raid on hit would be a good solution.


    Runeshaper:
    Needs a lot of changes. Simple fix is to reduce all the cast times. Making it easier for things to be instant.
    EDIT: Forgot to mention, Runeshaper teleport memory location needs to last 5min like the other classes. Instead of 30seconds.

    Warden:
    Needs to be closer to what chloro is.

    Needs overall mana cost reduction.

    Needs to be made easier as it has too many abilities for the time given.

    Reduce CD on Monsoon. I know some people will be like, why? But imagine using a warden vs the ton of other healers who out heal them, with fewer buttons and no mana issues.

    Warden needs more work but it along with Runeshaper, Sentinel and Puri need a complete overhaul.

    Puri-
    Bare minimum needs to be closer to what Frostkeeper is. Which means it needs more mobility and more ability to heal besides shielding.

    Sentinel-
    Needs to be closer to what Warchanter is. Warchanter is amazing. Probably the most fun healing soul in the game. Cleric is the class that is supposed to heal and i realize Sentinel is FTP but if we could get close to Warchanter, the game would be better for it.

    This would have to be done by emulating some of their spells, like Stand Tall and others that heal you and someone else with abilities off the GCD.
    Last edited by Barabbas; 07-26-2019 at 05:22 AM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Cleric 65 punishing strike mastery is not soul neutral. It is forcing people to use druid for the damage bonus. Other classes have soul neutral options. Should be off GCD just like other classes.
    Others classes don't have the same spell as oGCD. The only spell that look like punishing strike is the mage one and have a gcd. Primalist one is a dot. And other spells have a 30sec cd with stacks , not a direct single hit on an ennemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Defiler self heals are nerfed in pvp but the life to takes to cast these spells stayed the same. Needs fix.
    ...
    Fix the scaling with Greeds call. It's damage is scaling with gear and deals it to the player.
    Agree with those fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Inq still has a 2min dps CD. This needs to be 1min.
    I think it was the first part of the changes :

    Quote Originally Posted by Avathar View Post
    Cleric Changes:
    Radical Coalescence cooldown reduced from 2min to 1min
    Legendary Radical Coalescence cooldown reduced from 2min to 1min
    Unless there is another spell that i don't see(?) , there is no 2min burst in inquisitor left on PTS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Justicar:

    Justicar mien of leadership needs to be earlier in the tree to allow for hybrids like the other classes.

    Mien of leadership: lessen the nerf on the healing done by other souls or remove it for more potential hybrids. As compared to mage, primalist, warrior, cleric gets screwed.
    Agree with the fact that it should be earlier in the tree. Not really the other one.

    Mage , warrior and rogue have healing reduced between 20 and 35% , cleric have 40% a little higher. But prima have healing reduced by 80% and it's not a bit deal for hybrids specs it work just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Legendary Shadow's Touch: Make the damage increase in line with Primalist or others with things like this. Example Derv Seismic. increase 3 next air cutters. Could be like Shadow's touch, increases 3 next death spells by large amount.
    Air cutter is for the normal version of seismic smash , so making Shadow touch buffing something like bound of fate. Legendary seismic smash is "only" 20% for the next 3 spells, not really a large amount. Maybe the same effect , buffing next 3 spells , no matter the element, by 20%, with 4sec cd like the prima one, could be a good idea for shadow touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Druid ...
    Agree on those change you propose for the druid , will add some better QoL for the spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Oracle :
    It needs the capability to deal damage or heal. Right now Tactbard demolishes it and Defihealer replaces it.
    Not the best comparison between 2 hybrid specs and a 61spec. But if we compare it to a 61 bard , then both of them are useless on thier own currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Warden:
    Needs to be closer to what chloro is.
    I'd prefer the other way. Chloro is outhealing every other soul right now. Healers specs shouldn't go up, chloro should go down to be on par with other healer. If we make every other healer stronger, which boss could do to kill us ? Only oneshot will be able to kill people , and we all know they hate being one shot without the power and time to do something. In order to bring back "normal" damage from boss , we need to lower the healing from some healing specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barabbas View Post
    Sentinel-
    Needs to be closer to what Warchanter is. Warchanter is amazing. Probably the most fun healing soul in the game. Cleric is the class that is supposed to heal and i realize Sentinel is FTP but if we could get close to Warchanter, the game would be better for it.
    Exact same thing , warchanter currently is based on a bug , so it's not the best things to compare it to others ST healer. Warchanter is only amazing healing side because of this bug. Take it off and you'll loose 75% of your healing numbers.

    Other than that I kinda agree with all the other change you propose , it would make cleric in a better place.
    This is only my view on this, not meant to be "toxic" like some could say.
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 07-25-2019 at 02:09 PM.

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