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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PTS Update - 7/22/19 - Cleric Adjustments

  1. #241
    Soulwalker Chefsnutz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    The DPS of Druid is about 1.45-1.55, It depends when you choose to stop the parse. It can actually climb higher or lower after 5mins. The only thing that may not be so good is that it seems like the ramp-up starts far later and in some cases after 40 secs. of flaring power!
    Essence strike crit rate basically determines your overall dps since it is your burst ability. Lowest I've seen is 20%, highest is 100%... On average though I get 60% crit rate on PTS character. As for your ramp-up starting after 40 seconds of your parse, sounds like you have a rotation issue. The second burst block in druid has always occurred at roughly 30-33 seconds, this is to ensure it benefits from the 40sec Lava Field and 60sec Flaring Power.

  2. #242
    Champion of Telara Shas's Avatar
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    Thanks flashmemory,
    so it really is that high.

    What's interesting is, that when you do a quick (current live) opener with
    EoL- PS- CF- RB- Mimikry+Edict- 4xES- RB-SH-ES- Censure+ CE .. etc

    You rush Mimi to Squeeze of them 3 into Flarring.
    However this drastically butchers the burst to have 10sec frarring for 5 Mimikry stacks.

    EoL- RB- SH- CR- CE- FSx3- Edict- RB- Mimi- ESx5- RB- SH- ES- Censure+Ce...etc

    Is the bis 10 sec buildup with a proper Archont and Cd's at 5sec (+ good chance for Wild Storms being up for Mimi)
    RB+ SH and Sanction ticking within omnox should give Sanction Inq- like max hits (up to 900k-1mticks on raid cd's) (500-600k on dummy)
    Without Mimi delays you have 5-6 secs Flarring left for the 3rdMimi while maxing your initial Omnox potential.
    Super dependent on the Archont quality.

    I like how Druid's Mimikry syncs in with the Omnox uptime later on.
    Defenitly benefiting alot from crit pots.

    8Inq 7Shaman seems the most viable option atm, evento i once had a 300k Mimikry hit after lagspike which looked like it procced of Vengeance?

    Curious with your overall impression and if there are any known non-druid abilities ticking Mimikry.

    BoL seems to not deliver the same 15% bonus as Fate for the 0pt legendary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chefsnutz View Post
    Essence strike crit rate basically determines your overall dps since it is your burst ability. Lowest I've seen is 20%, highest is 100%...
    This is rng dependence, not seen in rift for decades.


    -> Mimikry is a great example for 2x1h with 2SP runes is superior btw :P


    Not quite sure why people speak up on Reddit and other sub forums isntead of here?
    Last edited by Shas; 08-05-2019 at 07:56 AM.
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  3. #243
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    Suggestions :

    - druid : make Nature's Edict apply to the cleric itself and not the target of the cleric ==> it will permit more easy target switching in raid, dungeon, pex and PvP

    - shaman : make Deep Freeze damage buff apply to the cleric itself and not the target of the cleric ==> more easy target switching in raid, dungeon, pex and especially in PvP where you can be in situation to switch target from 30 meters and where heals are abble to dispell Deep Freeze.

    NB : i'm aware "increase damage done by" and "increase damage receive by" are differents modifiers but it will permit a more comfortable druid and shaman experience.

  4. #244
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    So i created a new cleric on PTS to test Druid with the exact same gear everyone can have there.

    I used the build from Wynford, again so everyone can have it.

    The PTS gear i have is full BoS gear from the new box , didn't bought 2 so only 1 overlord ring upgraded, rune focus and essence from T1 box and a ****ty lvl 65 synergy i forgot to switch.
    I also got the omnox trinket.
    For frags i took time to upgradeto lvl 15 : 2 wisdom life and 1 CP fire from the frags box and nothing else is upgraded.

    I ended with this gear (10.10% CP) and this dps :
    PTS Update - 7/22/19 - Cleric Adjustments-druid-overall-2.jpg
    1.374M dps on a 4:04min try before hitting 50% mana when i stopped the parse.

    Max hit mimicry, since some talked about this before, is :
    PTS Update - 7/22/19 - Cleric Adjustments-2.8-mimicry.jpg

    Druid feel very smooth now with the 1sec gcd, like every other 1sec gcd spec the flow of spells is nice.

    For running phase you'll spam Trickster's Bolt with Wynford spec at the end of the macro so being at range for 6-8 sec isn't a big deal and you also have Through Step/Fae Step if need to jump to close range.

    Disconnect isn't really an issue at least for me, since atm in BoS we do'nt have bosses that require a lot's of target switching. We'll see if another raid is planned but for the current raids , disconnect is fine.

    As other said Mana is still an issue , you'll run out of mana in about 3min if you do'nt manage it , 4-4:15min if you manage it a bit. Either reducing mana from cleric spells or buffing the mana regen mastery as suggested could be a good idea.
    With this mana issue solved , you could use nature's censure , cause atm the mana cost it add is a bit too much for the spec. You'll run out of mana in like 2min with it in your rotation.

    I Benchmarked it with a same gear prima because, again , people like to cry without comparing specs and telling prima is OP. So here is the Prima dps with exact same gear as the cleric :
    PTS Update - 7/22/19 - Cleric Adjustments-prima-benchmark-pts.jpg
    1.257M dps on 4:04min fight too, druid end up 100k stronger than Prima which is fine since both spec have trouble running and with disconnect , for the same type of specs they do about the same dps.

    I just did it cause i had time to create another cleric for the purpose, and also to answer some people speaking about me and how i'm the only one Avathar listen about cleric change when i don't even play it. Please be smart and talk bad about people when it's not true.

    Whatever i hope this will help people who actually try specs and try to bring them at the same lvl with other callings.
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 08-05-2019 at 11:40 AM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    So i created a new cleric on PTS to test Druid with the exact same gear everyone can have there.

    I used the build from Wynford, again so everyone can have it.

    The PTS gear i have is full BoS gear from the new box , didn't bought 2 so only 1 overlord ring upgraded, rune focus and essence from T1 box and a ****ty lvl 65 synergy i forgot to switch.
    I also got the omnox trinket.
    For frags i took time to upgradeto lvl 15 : 2 wisdom life and 1 CP fire from the frags box and nothing else is upgraded.

    I ended with this gear (10.10% CP) and this dps :
    Attachment 33964
    1.374M dps on a 4:04min try before hitting 50% mana when i stopped the parse.

    Max hit mimicry, since some talked about this before, is :
    Attachment 33966

    Druid feel very smooth now with the 1sec gcd, like every other 1sec gcd spec the flow of spells is nice.

    For running phase you'll spam Trickster's Bolt with Wynford spec at the end of the macro so being at range for 6-8 sec isn't a big deal and you also have Through Step/Fae Step if need to jump to close range.

    Disconnect isn't really an issue at least for me, since atm in BoS we do'nt have bosses that require a lot's of target switching. We'll see if another raid is planned but for the current raids , disconnect is fine.

    As other said Mana is still an issue , you'll run out of mana in about 3min if you do'nt manage it , 4-4:15min if you manage it a bit. Either reducing mana from cleric spells or buffing the mana regen mastery as suggested could be a good idea.
    With this mana issue solved , you could use nature's censure , cause atm the mana cost it add is a bit too much for the spec. You'll run out of mana in like 2min with it in your rotation.

    I Benchmarked it with a same gear prima because, again , people like to cry without comparing specs and telling prima is OP. So here is the Prima dps with exact same gear as the cleric :
    Attachment 33967
    1.257M dps on 4:04min fight too, druid end up 100k stronger than Prima which is fine since both spec have trouble running and with disconnect , for the same type of specs they do about the same dps.

    I just did it cause i had time to create another cleric for the purpose, and also to answer some people speaking about me and how i'm the only one Avathar listen about cleric change when i don't even play it. Please be smart and talk bad about people when it's not true.

    Whatever i hope this will help people who actually try specs and try to bring them at the same lvl with other callings.
    Well.........probably safe to say that druid will fill the color green on Bamuls dps spreadsheet.
    https://gyazo.com/ae345963423e9df4e70beb9decad7aff

  6. #246
    Champion of Telara Shas's Avatar
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    The Destroyer 2 Brain & Brothers company is wellcoming competition to spice up the thin soup called pve landscape.

    so jeah. Bring it on!

    Thanks for the numbers Hokh. Finaly some solid benchmarks.

    Note that every dmg% may turns Mimikry ino a potential Nuke. Run a 15% on-target-buff and Mimikry goes from 1.9m to 2.9m to 3.3m
    Since every dmg% on ES multiplies on Mimikry. -> Expect bis changes in raid scaling, where Sentinel and Rs may turn bis. Overall , all the supvarians are 150k around each other with the ones supporting Mimikry max hits lose on the dummy (but may gain on Azranel)
    Last edited by Shas; 08-08-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    That is because the people taking the focus damage is not using consumables. The healing is fine with most the other classes. Maybe 2 classes can use some targeted buffs to healing. The ranged damage is still too strong from a number of classes and could use some nerfs. Primalist and Paragon burst are insane. BD AE is still too much. May also need to nerf mystic archer AE.. Nerf the damage of these high burst talents from range and AE talents is the better way to go. Global damage and healing buffs will make the healers that don't need to be buffed much overpowered again. A global nerf to damage will just make worse-performing dps in PvP even worse. The main point is they need to fine-tune the classes with specific buffs and nerfs.. No global change is going to fix this.

    Keep in mind Farseer has been the main complaint ever since it was released. That type of overpowered healing shouldn't have existed for so long. Many players have grown accustomed to it being the normal thing to expect from a good healer when even if a healer were half as viable as farseer it will still be considered too strong.
    A good way to test healing in PvP would be to allow an instance like CQ or a BG to enter with the pvp reductions in place and have the dummy to heal or dps on along with a rune vessel or egg to pick up and self heal. See how long you can last holding it. There is no good way to test pvp on PTS so you need someone who plays multiple classes who is not biased or has 1000s of games played to tell you the situation.
    (For pvp) I agree, yet disagree with some of your thoughts. Mostly agree with fixing outlying burst abilities, but there are quite a bit more then you mentioned, most issues I believe stemming from legendaries (not all though).

    The disagreement is about heals. Most heals are seriously horrible, and most healers cant even negate 1-1 a dps. The healers, other then farseer, that you see healing better are actually just using usually 1 (yes, 1) ability that is equaling most of their heal output. This is most likely due to the ability bypassing pvp heal nerfs. Lib for example spam the one ability (someone can name it for me I never healed on my warrior) in pvp because its output is so much stronger then the rest of its abilities. They should continue to fix these few heals down like they are doing to the farseer, then they could blanket buff all heals. I agree that blanket buffing without fixing said bypassing heals is a horrible idea.

    But, and this is a big but. Even if they did, it would not be nearly as horrible as farseer is. Farseer cheats in one of the biggest ways, and as a prior healer, makes me laugh when someone tells me this farseer or that is just so skilled. Why? Because farseer heals everyone with aoe as its main heal. You literally only have to buff switch then hit one button /10 seconds to save yourself and everyone, all at once. Skill used to be about triage, target switching who to save, who to let go, and even save yourself or save the dps peeling for you instead hoping he kills your antagonists quick enough for you to heal yourself again then switch back to who to save. Should I cleanse spam? When should I hit a HOT, vs my ST big heals. Ok I need mana now so how do I weave it in? Lol no, the farseer is a joke of a healer and all the skill went out the door because it ruined actual skillful play. AOE heals should be a skillful decision when to hit them in pvp, not the best go-to full heal that pops at an extraordinarily quick rate enough do that its 50-60% of all your uber heals.

    Id love to heal again, just on a toon that can perform well with actual skillful play. On the opposite end dps can actually still kill players with smart target switching. Many times in the past Id leave a healer alive because I couldn't quite kill them, but in turn they couldn't keep other targets alive around them because they couldn't keep up with target switching. This whole farseer really should never have happened or gone on for so long simply because it totally ruined target switching. That is to say, skillful healing or dps.

    I also agree certain ranged abilities are far too strong. I would also pose they re-enable pulls/ports/pushes to once more work together to help melee. Almost every soul has access to a jump back or leap or port or an immunity and so enabling this once more would only add more utility and skillful play and countering back into the game.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 08-05-2019 at 01:56 PM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chefsnutz View Post
    Essence strike crit rate basically determines your overall dps since it is your burst ability. Lowest I've seen is 20%, highest is 100%... On average though I get 60% crit rate on PTS character. As for your ramp-up starting after 40 seconds of your parse, sounds like you have a rotation issue. The second burst block in druid has always occurred at roughly 30-33 seconds, this is to ensure it benefits from the 40sec Lava Field and 60sec Flaring Power.
    You have to account for the last 6 secs. of LSH. It may not be the biggest portion of your DPS but it is up there.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    prima is OP. So here is the Prima dps with exact same gear as the cleric
    People already have parses of Primalist on live with them over 1.5million at range. Not even is the dummy foundry being used in those parses. And yes Prima is OP but it not just because of DPS. Most people who are arguing they are OP are talking about the Farseer changes in this thread. Okay I brought up its burst potential in PvP..which even you admitted is cheese. It is quite misleading to compare two playstyles while ignoring that one class has a far better playstyle that does similar dps in its arsenal.. What you are not saying is that your range dps is 100's of K more dps than inquisitor and in many cases pulls ahead of your melee competitively. Even rogue can pull ahead since its best dps is range. If you were honest you will now compare inquisitor to your range.

    Now let us go forward and compare melee in other classes. Just the design of druid vs. them. Well, Warrior has RB.. They can teleport after every crit so basically close to unlimited kite potential. Paragon can deal most its damage from range for a period of time, immunity to pulls and knockbacks and access to a low cooldown pull and/or leap back that doesn't destroy its dps. Harb can do the same for a limited time with its range.. can go invisible in mid-combat more than slip away sin, can teleport back to back.. Nightblade isn't really a melee soul lol. And all of the primalist melee abilities can be turned into range with L.Wind Serpent... Point is there is a lot of things other classes are capable of doing that cleric can't even phantom. Sure there are things that it can do but remember that if you have to be on interrupt duty you may eat an FM proc, if you want to teleport in you may eat an FM proc, if you want to sacrifice life to mana you may eat an FM proc etc. The more you look hard enough the more problems you find with the spec at least from playability stand point.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 08-05-2019 at 04:36 PM.

  10. #250
    Champion of Telara Shas's Avatar
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    @Aeydynn

    you seem to not like Hokhmah? You always bring up other, a group of people in general, the meta or what others do and give it a "Aedynn thinks" stamp.
    At this point i'm not sure if you even play actively.

    I asked Hokh to bring up a pts gear mowgli benchmark after i saw earlier Druid breakdowns from him.
    He did it the very same evening and happened to share them.
    Everyone runs 1.3 something on pts druid but with the unusual stats on pts it was handy to get one of the best primalists to benchmark the gear on a strict and light-rng rotation, which he spent hours practising. You can consider the linked Primalist breakdown as "as good as it gets" which helps ALOT getting a grip of cleric's state; with the "new" Shamans running 1.2m aswell, we can now set it in relation.

    Pts is not a final version and there might even be better versions than the 1m pts Inquisitor. (Expect hot pot on 1.2m) If you ask nicely he may link you a hot pot breakdown on pts stats)

    I don't get your attempts to explain him how to rate a spec. Even less i get your reason calling out on him for "not being honest".

    Make a pts Cleric, meet up with his prim on alpha and share the comparison.

    Bet we have a Lindy, burning for the numbers. ;P

    This is some mmorpg neckbeard chat, please keep your grain of salt.
    Last edited by Shas; 08-05-2019 at 04:19 PM.
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  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    @Aeydynn you seem to not like Hokhmah? You always bring up other, a group of people in general, the meta or what others do and give it a "Aedynn thinks" stamp.
    At this point i'm not sure if you even play actively..
    All I said was other classes have so much differences in playability that add viability to the class. What group of people are you talking about? That is just classes and how they behave? Druid seems to be lacking and in many cases crippled by its functionality while other classes have had things added over time to increase there functionality and viability.

    If we were to set a new meta where melee is the supreme dps of all class even those melees that get buffed will be far more playable and I will bet more people will quit if range was nerfed into the ground. I am being the most realistic in my opinion. Keep in mind going on 3 years with druid being best dps for cleric and still no one wants to use it! Even those who love the risk vs. reward it brings..

    BTW, I am literally the only one who said Primalist is OP in some way in the thread in terms of dps so I assumed he is talking about me. Do you really play Rift as much as you use to? Bamul parses are good enough but even Hokmah have parses of range dps over 1.5 million in the forums so there really is no need for him to show me but to show himself that you shouldn't compare cleric in its best circumstance with Primalist in most likely its worse circumstance since far more people play primarily in range than in melee. That part is not being too honest in my opinion because the meta has never been even in this entire expansion that melee is far better dps than every class range spec in practical use. Even if you consider warrior early on it was reaver, tempest, then its healing spec doing more dps than its melee spec. So ask yourself why the artificial ruleset NOW when the cleric is being looked at? May as well dedicate your time to developing NB, Paragon, and Harb since from playability standpoint they greatly surpass druid in ALL content.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 08-05-2019 at 06:02 PM.

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    I am thinking that removing Legendary Fervent Strike from Inquisitor can be a good option so players can stop complaining. Maybe make Cabalist legendary best in slot for inquisitor instead. Something similar to savage blow mastery could help boost inquisitor dps and eliminate the need for druid off soul in another dps spec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    You have to account for the last 6 secs. of LSH. It may not be the biggest portion of your DPS but it is up there.
    Flash are you using Wynford's druid guide? My LSH last 6 seconds is always at the 34 second mark in my parses.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    I am thinking that removing Legendary Fervent Strike from Inquisitor can be a good option so players can stop complaining. Maybe make Cabalist legendary best in slot for inquisitor instead. Something similar to savage blow mastery could help boost inquisitor dps and eliminate the need for druid off soul in another dps spec.
    This would be the most ideal. Keep casts to casts and melee to melee.
    --BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    People already have parses of Primalist on live with them over 1.5million at range. Not even is the dummy foundry being used in those parses. And yes Prima is OP but it not just because of DPS. Most people who are arguing they are OP are talking about the Farseer changes in this thread. Okay I brought up its burst potential in PvP..which even you admitted is cheese. It is quite misleading to compare two playstyles while ignoring that one class has a far better playstyle that does similar dps in its arsenal.. What you are not saying is that your range dps is 100's of K more dps than inquisitor and in many cases pulls ahead of your melee competitively. Even rogue can pull ahead since its best dps is range. If you were honest you will now compare inquisitor to your range.

    Now let us go forward and compare melee in other classes. Just the design of druid vs. them. Well, Warrior has RB.. They can teleport after every crit so basically close to unlimited kite potential. Paragon can deal most its damage from range for a period of time, immunity to pulls and knockbacks and access to a low cooldown pull and/or leap back that doesn't destroy its dps. Harb can do the same for a limited time with its range.. can go invisible in mid-combat more than slip away sin, can teleport back to back.. Nightblade isn't really a melee soul lol. And all of the primalist melee abilities can be turned into range with L.Wind Serpent... Point is there is a lot of things other classes are capable of doing that cleric can't even phantom. Sure there are things that it can do but remember that if you have to be on interrupt duty you may eat an FM proc, if you want to teleport in you may eat an FM proc, if you want to sacrifice life to mana you may eat an FM proc etc. The more you look hard enough the more problems you find with the spec at least from playability stand point.
    How can you compare others melee class which don't have the same weakness/advantage to druid , with it ? that's not how it work. On the spec you said , only 1 ( RB ) is top dps of his calling , not even the others and for prima melee at range , you end up loosing too much dps so it's not worth it. I don't know how those can be compared to druid ? Just because they are "melee" mean druid should o the same as them ? You dumb or what ? Druid have more dps but less tools and that's a good things.

    Also why i compare it to prima melee and not range : Because , as said before , it's the top dps of prima class , same as druid for cleric + both are melee + both suffer from disconnect/running. In the tools part , and mecanics part of the spec they are the same. That's a good comparison even if you don't agree with that.

    Another thing : why people don't play druid ? well it's the same as why the don't play melee prima , since you say they all play range : they are just lazy , and don't know how to play melee in a game where most specs perform good at range people don't bother for 10% more dps , they won't play melee. But melee for prima and cleric is superior to range specs , and people saying the other way are just too bad at playing mecanics to understand.

    You speak like if you are playing in top groups , but as you said in previous post "Most of the rogues and primalist in our party can peak well over 2.2 million dps" where a good prima and rogue peak way over 3m+, so you either have a bad group , or you are bad yourself for not seeing the truth about melee specs. We don't even know who you are in game , and your dps parse from BoS , since you seems so happy i can't do one for my cleric , i'd like to see your cleric parse or maybe your prima parse, since you seems to know so much about those compare to me.

    you could be the only one saying prima is OP in the thread but not in the game , i'm not always talking about yourself.

    Noone want to use druid you said ? then maybe because people using it stopped the game because of lack of content , not because druid was bad. You can look on youtube for some wynford tries at druid , without pseudo support or magical debuff. You can look at pre 4.5 parses too where people played druid. It got nerf after but still kept his top druid dps position , just good player don't play anymore , only player left in the game are for 95% of them bad player crying over everything that's can't fit their 1 button playstyle or doing more dps/heal than them.

    yes i have parse from range voer 1.5m , but i also have parse from melee dps being higher. It's the same for inqui , people having parse at 1.2+ don't mean druid can't do more. Maybe open your eyes about the melee specs in the game , go learn them and come back later with your own parse so we can see how so good you are in raids.

    For now just calm down always being against me, i'm just giving numbers for others and i gave my opinions about the changes/specs , if you aren't happy with them , just give yours and prove it with numbers too. Should always be better than telling everyone is wrong and bashing them over other platform than forum.
    Last edited by Hokhmah; 08-06-2019 at 07:39 AM.

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