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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PTS Update June 21st

  1. #76
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyens View Post
    I hate to break some bad news to you, but the nature of a live product (and an MMO) makes this being often a one way communication a part of the deal. As the industry has morphed and adapted and times have changed, development needs have shifted and devs work harder than ever to keep up with content demands as well as making decisions that will have rippling impacts for *literally* years to come (we wrestled with about a half dozen ideas before we settled on legendaries for example). This leads to many developers working a ton to get stuff in and as polished as humanly possible. This will invariably cut down on people's ability to post, not to mention their stress. Everyone I know in the industry has their crunch time horror stories (I remember sleeping at my desk a few times at another company).

    That is not to say things are ideal as they are. I know personally I would like to post more and try to provide greater clarity about designs and talk about stuff I'd like to work on in RIFT (I have something like a dozen soul designs floating around my hard drive in varying states of completeness) because this is my passion. Getting there, however, requires work from both sides. This means players need to actively resist urges to lash out and in general help put the kibosh on it when they see it. This makes it much easier for a dev to drop in with whatever.
    Please understand that transparency leads to more positive communities. This has repeatedly been proven via studies, and from our perspective we are being told to not be upset at being ignored for months. Try to empathize with our point of view. Many of us pay a lot of money and time into the game and to be met with radio silence for months is frustrating because (to us) it sends a message that we aren't being listened to and nobody cares about us or our issues. ( http://www.dummies.com/social-media/...e-communities/ ) I have played other MMOs, and those that have more transparency in communication have healthier online communities. People enjoy conversations but don't like being talked at. The Rift community feels more like they're being scolded than having a conversation among adults. I think it's fair to feel irritation at that. Let's have a conversation again and discuss things before they're implemented, it has been far too long since that's happened here.

    Talk to us about some of those ideas you have going on in your head, we are willing to converse. I'll support great ideas and even reward the game with money if I know it's going in a good direction. Right now everyone who isn't in the discord is stumbling around in the dark.

    Even a simple response like "Thanks for the feedback, we'll take a look at it" more frequently would go a long way towards alleviating the valid frustrations that many of us feel. It takes only about 10 seconds to type that out, and would do wonders toward people thinking that their input is invalidated and ignored.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 07-10-2017 at 04:33 PM.

  2.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #77
    Rift Team Keyens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    Please understand that transparency leads to more positive communities. This has repeatedly been proven via studies, and from our perspective we are being told to not be upset at being ignored for months. Try to empathize with our point of view. Many of us pay a lot of money and time into the game and to be met with radio silence for months is frustrating because (to us) it sends a message that we aren't being listened to and nobody cares about us or our issues. ( http://www.dummies.com/social-media/...e-communities/ ) I have played other MMOs, and those that have more transparency in communication have healthier online communities. People enjoy conversations but don't like being talked at. The Rift community feels more like they're being scolded than having a conversation among adults. I think it's fair to feel irritation at that. Let's have a conversation again and discuss things before they're implemented, it has been far too long since that's happened here.

    Talk to us about some of those ideas you have going on in your head, we are willing to converse. I'll support great ideas and even reward the game with money if I know it's going in a good direction. Right now everyone who isn't in the discord is stumbling around in the dark.

    Even a simple response like "Thanks for the feedback, we'll take a look at it" more frequently would go a long way towards alleviating the valid frustrations that many of us feel. It takes only about 10 seconds to type that out, and would do wonders toward people thinking that their input is invalidated and ignored.
    A few points of clarity.

    1. Players aren't getting ignored. What you are getting is less replies than you want.
    2. I'm not asking you to be ok with *being ignored*. I'm asking that players try to be aware of how impending release dates or major features can impact developer ability to post.
    3. I'd gladly talk about what if projects and stuff I have kicked around in my head, but up till now too many players tend to quickly conflate "that cool thing Keyens talked about" with "that thing we are promised" so I don't do that as much any more.
    4. I actually used to do the "I've seen your thing, its on my list" post in stuff on another project I worked on, right up until people started accusing me of using a canned response and not reading, so that doesn't actually play out well in practice.


    Nobody is disagreeing with continuing to strive for more transparency, but doing it through the forums currently has some barriers (as noted in my previous post). This is a process, one where improvement needs to live on both sides.

  3. #78
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  4.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #79
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    For more on Keyens and his approach to soul development and balance, go to YouTube and do a search for Keyens, RIFT. He has spent a lot of time talking about gamedev in general and RIFT souls in particular. One of my favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1IFaExKyYo

    Twitch, YouTube, Discord, Reddit, Twitter... these are all valid and valuable platforms that we use regularly. We are always grateful for an aggregator such as Clowd created for Discord.

    What's "official?" Any place where a Dev makes a comment on record.

    Not everything will be said on the forums. In fact, the forums are used by a small portion of the player base, so while it is somewhat representative and an extremely valuable and permanent source of feedback, it is not, by any means, the only communication platform we use. Each one suits a different communication style - for instance, you cannot have the same sort of quick back and forth on forums as you can on Discord.


    Speaking of...
    If people want to keep complaining about Discord when The Ghar Station makes such fantastic recaps for us all at no cost, I really don't know how to counter that sentiment.
    We don't get this info!
    Yes you do, it's right here.
    I want it on the forums.
    It's linked. Right. Here.

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  5. #80
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyens View Post
    A few points of clarity.

    1. Players aren't getting ignored. What you are getting is less replies than you want.
    2. I'm not asking you to be ok with *being ignored*. I'm asking that players try to be aware of how impending release dates or major features can impact developer ability to post.
    3. I'd gladly talk about what if projects and stuff I have kicked around in my head, but up till now too many players tend to quickly conflate "that cool thing Keyens talked about" with "that thing we are promised" so I don't do that as much any more.
    4. I actually used to do the "I've seen your thing, its on my list" post in stuff on another project I worked on, right up until people started accusing me of using a canned response and not reading, so that doesn't actually play out well in practice.


    Nobody is disagreeing with continuing to strive for more transparency, but doing it through the forums currently has some barriers (as noted in my previous post). This is a process, one where improvement needs to live on both sides.
    1. I'm not 100% sure if no communication since April should be the norm for "less replies"

    2. It has been approximately three months. I am also politely informing you how the silence is being perceived by the community at large and how that perception being dismissed looks. If zero communication for up to three months prior to a new release is the norm, then please inform us of that. An important part of image is setting realistic expectations so that people aren't disappointed.

    3. Then preface the thread with a disclaimer in bold red lettering that says "This is not a promise of action, this is a discussion or a brainstorm session." I have seen it done in other communities, why never here? We wanna talk, include us!

    4. Obviously I'm not saying make that reply to every post and make it exactly the same, but more activity than a few posts every few months would go a long way towards reducing the toxicity. When stuff is bottled up and ignored, it tends to ferment and fester.

    Anyway, I am very glad to see you're back to posting actively on the forums, and I look forward to constructive conversations in the future.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 07-10-2017 at 05:07 PM.

  6. #81
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    We are pretty chill, but I'm not 100% sure that wanting a post more than once every fiscal quarter is tantamount to "backseat developing." I don't think that that level of noncommunication should be seen as normal.

    We are people who care a lot about the game and its development direction and are understandably frustrated when the communication has been one-way for months. A more equitable level of communication would go a long way towards reducing negativity overall. People tend to get negative when they feel like their concerns are being ignored, it's basic human nature.
    Keyen's job is not "Community Manager". Keyens job is "Content Developer". Look at Brasses posts from the last 6 months. You HAVE heard from Trion regarding a plethora of things, Brasse representing Trion as the current "Community Manager". She most of the time jumps into a thread and thanks everyone for their contribution or gives as much clarity as she's able.

    Keyens has also said (MULTIPLE times, might I add) that he DOES read feedback he just doesn't always have time to respond. Can you imagine if he had to respond to every single thread with someone crying about something that from a design perspective can't work, or causes bugs in other parts of the game or just in general takes up a lot of his finite dev time? Then when he mentions why this is the case, all you do is turn the firehose on and spew meaningless banter like he's less of a human because he won't buff "X" class, or because he wont make every change you suggest. What does he have to do? put a "I do read your feedback, I just can't always respond" line in his signature block? or at the top of any feedback post just to make it clear?

    Everybody wants the game to be great. Offer constructive feedback, and understand it's not a Dev's job to satiate your need for attention. Have fun playing the product we have, or go somewhere else. It really is that easy. It's quite obvious your aggressive, disrespectful approach doesn't motivate the dev's. So why continue being disrespectful and requiring he meet your demands?
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  7. #82
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    With regard to the mention of conversations in Discord, please remember that Clowd parses them and posts them to The Ghar Station as a public service. He also links them here and we echo these on socials.
    This means that you don't have to search for info at all. It's there, conveniently formatted, for all of us to enjoy. A great community service!

    I am also going to say that there are a number of posts here that really cross the line in rude comments and vitriolic expression. Take a deep breath and post in a reasonable rational manner. Again, criticism is totally valid. Rude expression of it is not.
    Thanks!
    Brasse

    ps. A lot of the posts here ARE rational, reasonable and critical. It can be done. =)
    Is Clowd an employee of trion? Or is he just a regular gamer/customer of rift?

    I ask this because why are you brasse, as an employee of trion, relying on a customer of rift to post updates about rift PTS notes and rift dev chatter? Why isn't an employee doing this? Why isn't the Director of Community Relations doing this?

    I'm all for discord, and ghar station, don't get me wrong. I love that devs have many avenues of communication, but I asked very similar questions awhile ago, which got ignored. These questions are simple :

    - Where are the official PTS notes?

    - Do I as a player, have to rely on another player ( clowd) to scour discord/PTS and post all the changes?

    - Am I as a player expected to keep a list of what's different when I log onto PTS from the last time I logged onto PTS?

    - Is this thread still relevant? http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...s-part-ii.html I ask because it is still stickied.

    - Should I keep watch on an unofficial channel ( discord ) for PTS changes and dev chatter?


    I feel these are all very important and relevant questions for any player who has any mind of giving back to rift and helping out via feedback. So why have none of these questions been answered, again, by the director of community relations?


    I keep wanting to come back to rift, but then I see interactions like this between devs and the players and it just reminds me that things still haven't changed. Here you have people begging you guys for more communication, and you're basically telling all of us off because "some" of the feedback is toxic.

    I mean I get it, no one likes dealing with an a-hole. I even had my moments as one of those a-holes. But come on, let's agree we can all have thicker skin here. For every piece of toxic feedback, there has been 3x as much positive and constructive feedback that gets ignored. When people feel they aren't being heard, they resort to louder and more in your face tactics, and right now, the community by and large is feeling ignored and betrayed by several of the dev responses we have been getting.

    To put it simply, in my honest opinion, the devs of rift can do better. I feel most people aren't asking you guys to be anywhere near perfect, just better.
    Last edited by Orochan; 07-10-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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  8.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #83
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    We have a lot of players who provide amazing supportive services. Fan sites, videographers, streamers, guide-writers. They do what we do not have time or resources to do, and they do it for fun, for a challenge and for the love of the game.

    This is what I used to do before I actually got into the industry proper as well (guide writer, cartographer and comics on the now defunct www.thebrasse.com) - and wish there was something like the Trion Creator Program back then. =)

    If we did not have these Creators, we'd have less information sharing, because it's all a matter of personnel and resources, both of which are finite. That is why I spend do much time thanking all the players who do so much for the community as a whole.

    PTS does not always get official patch notes.
    Live does, and CM Morgana pulls those together for us.

    The thread you reference is still relevant, until 4.2 launches. Every thread is read and all feedback is noted, even when we do not have the time to respond to specifics. It's all part of the information flow that Dev uses to make design and gameplay decisions.
    Last edited by TrionBrasse; 07-10-2017 at 05:34 PM.

  9. #84
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    It's kind've sad that rift is so limited in dev resources/dev power that they are unable to field official PTS notes. I do not mean this as a knock on the devs, as I am sure you guys are passionate about the game, but still.... to think you guys are this stretched out.
    Last edited by Orochan; 07-10-2017 at 05:39 PM.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    Keyen's job is not "Community Manager". Keyens job is "Content Developer". Look at Brasses posts from the last 6 months. You HAVE heard from Trion regarding a plethora of things, Brasse representing Trion as the current "Community Manager". She most of the time jumps into a thread and thanks everyone for their contribution or gives as much clarity as she's able.

    Keyens has also said (MULTIPLE times, might I add) that he DOES read feedback he just doesn't always have time to respond. Can you imagine if he had to respond to every single thread with someone crying about something that from a design perspective can't work, or causes bugs in other parts of the game or just in general takes up a lot of his finite dev time? Then when he mentions why this is the case, all you do is turn the firehose on and spew meaningless banter like he's less of a human because he won't buff "X" class, or because he wont make every change you suggest. What does he have to do? put a "I do read your feedback, I just can't always respond" line in his signature block? or at the top of any feedback post just to make it clear?

    Everybody wants the game to be great. Offer constructive feedback, and understand it's not a Dev's job to satiate your need for attention. Have fun playing the product we have, or go somewhere else. It really is that easy. It's quite obvious your aggressive, disrespectful approach doesn't motivate the dev's. So why continue being disrespectful and requiring he meet your demands?
    if people had heard from a plethora of things that they wanted to know about you wouldnt have multiple threads asking for more communication from the devs throughout this whole expansion.

    half of brasses post are general information like " the new update is now on the pts"

    for specific things class related she does not have the information and i dont expect her to.

    also i love how you boil this thread down to everyone being disrespectful when only one persons post has been removed.

    quite a wide brush you got there.

    on a side now. what happens if clowd quits or gets hit by a car? he does a great job and its a welcome service, but changes intended to go on the PTS should not require a third party to parse it out to the rest of the community.

  12. #87
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    Keyen's job is not "Community Manager". Keyens job is "Content Developer". Look at Brasses posts from the last 6 months. You HAVE heard from Trion regarding a plethora of things, Brasse representing Trion as the current "Community Manager". She most of the time jumps into a thread and thanks everyone for their contribution or gives as much clarity as she's able.

    Keyens has also said (MULTIPLE times, might I add) that he DOES read feedback he just doesn't always have time to respond. Can you imagine if he had to respond to every single thread with someone crying about something that from a design perspective can't work, or causes bugs in other parts of the game or just in general takes up a lot of his finite dev time? Then when he mentions why this is the case, all you do is turn the firehose on and spew meaningless banter like he's less of a human because he won't buff "X" class, or because he wont make every change you suggest. What does he have to do? put a "I do read your feedback, I just can't always respond" line in his signature block? or at the top of any feedback post just to make it clear?

    Everybody wants the game to be great. Offer constructive feedback, and understand it's not a Dev's job to satiate your need for attention. Have fun playing the product we have, or go somewhere else. It really is that easy. It's quite obvious your aggressive, disrespectful approach doesn't motivate the dev's. So why continue being disrespectful and requiring he meet your demands?
    I don't expect every dev to be active on the forums. There are some who have a narrow area of specialty (DeadSimon with artifacts, Tacitus with dimension stuff), so I don't expect them to be as communicative.

    Class balance, however, is gigantic. It affects everyone's QoL in game and when mishandled, can be someone's reason for leaving. When class balance changes are made without consulting the people who play those classes, oftentimes unexpectedly and without any conversation prior to it, it upsets people. Their quality of gaming can be negatively affected without any consultation.

    Also I think it's really unfair of the devs to expect Clowd to be the conduit for transparency between the devs and players. He's just one guy and is doing hours upon hours of unpaid labor. What happens if he quits or something comes up in his personal life to prevent him from updating the fansite? Why not invite more people into the skype channels and discords so that the work isn't all foisted on one person, or at least be more communicative on a regular basis to minimize the workload? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it. I just wish it wasn't made one unpaid player's responsibility alone to facilitate this.

  13. #88
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirdiggby View Post
    if people had heard from a plethora of things that they wanted to know about you wouldnt have multiple threads asking for more communication from the devs throughout this whole expansion.

    half of brasses post are general information like " the new update is now on the pts"

    for specific things class related she does not have the information and i dont expect her to.

    also i love how you boil this thread down to everyone being disrespectful when only one persons post has been removed.

    quite a wide brush you got there.

    on a side now. what happens if clowd quits or gets hit by a car? he does a great job and its a welcome service, but changes intended to go on the PTS should not require a third party to parse it out to the rest of the community.
    Just because a post isn't removed, doesn't mean it isn't disrespectful. The dev's/CM's are wildly tolerant of many of you, and I'm surprised by it.

    This happened before. Riftscene left, Riftgrate left, many of the addon developers left. And many more popped up to take their place. It's supplemental. They don't need these people to operate their game. MMO's are to be explored and discovered, its also not their job to write guides for you. *EDIT* I'd like to add, that by "guides" I mean that stuff theory crafters and min/maxxers put out. Not basic game instruction.
    Last edited by ChamberDown; 07-10-2017 at 06:19 PM.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post

    Not everything will be said on the forums. In fact, the forums are used by a small portion of the player base, so while it is somewhat representative and an extremely valuable and permanent source of feedback, it is not, by any means, the only communication platform we use. Each one suits a different communication style - for instance, you cannot have the same sort of quick back and forth on forums as you can on Discord.


    Speaking of...
    If people want to keep complaining about Discord when The Ghar Station makes such fantastic recaps for us all at no cost, I really don't know how to counter that sentiment.
    We don't get this info!
    Yes you do, it's right here.
    I want it on the forums.
    It's linked. Right. Here.

    =P
    With all due respect, this is a completely different point.
    People aren't complaining about Discord, but about Discord being exclusive (in a bad way) in terms of information, while at the same time being a platform that discourages people providing feedback and reporting issues, as well as trying to get Devs' attention and - yes, sometimes even criticize.

    There is nothing wrong with Clowd doing what he's doing - however, it is not his job or his responsibility to do any of this (datamining, Dev chatters). There's a big difference between a dedicated player trying to do something nice for the community in their own free time and actual responsibility to not only share information (full patch notes, upcoming changes) but also communicate with the players via the platform that is run by the company. In this case, forums are the only platform that is officially run by the company, while Discord is made by players, run by players, and moderated according to what the players think is right for the particular community. It is not the term "official" that makes the difference, it is how the platform is handled to be a viable source of feedback for both players and Devs.

    People aren't unhappy that Dev chatters are being posted here by a player - on the contrary, people appreciate this, especially those who simply don't have the time to read and filter all the chats. What people are unhappy about is that they cannot use a platform for their feedback when they do have the time to, simply because of how differently it's being handled on different platforms. While the forums - in short - are set towards being a constructive and friendly community with all the means to post any feedback, issues, questions and criticism, Discord in the way it is handled does not allow for any type of criticism however constructive it may be. And it would be absolutely fine if Discord wasn't in fact advertised as a place where people are welcome to discuss the game with the Devs (which logically suggests that they would be allowed to also post feedback and report the issues, the same way it is done in other gaming Discord communities that also have Devs present and active). If Discord is to be considered as one of the company's communication platforms, then it should not be any different from other platforms actively used by both players and the company in terms of constructive feedback, discussions and reports.


    What people are unhappy about is that they see the Devs being active on Discord while not having the time to type out a short response on the forums, and that makes them feel ignored and left out. And when they try to take their feedback and concerns to the only platform that seems to have Dev activity, they get moderated for doing exactly this. People simply don't have a place where they can not just share their feedback but also get at least some form of reaction. That is the problem, not Dev chatters, chats, or the term "official".
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  15. #90
    Rift Master notawaifu's Avatar
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    ha I'm sorry I posted a direct quote from a dev.

    If stuff is read you should check out mage bugs thread in sig. Good read. You don't have to read the comments. Only the main post.
    Last edited by notawaifu; 07-10-2017 at 06:26 PM.

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