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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: OFFICIAL FEEDBACK: Public Test Server Balance changes, PART II

  1. #31
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Yes, SFP has a major problem of ranged aoe/cleave dps specs vastly out dpsing melee ST specs.

    I really hope that gets fixed soon. Melee dps should always be higher than ranged dps simply due to the fact that they are melee and thus way more susceptible to AOE's in pve, and tab targeting in pvp. It's is MMO balance 101.

    The past few patches have been really good balance wise though IMO, with the devs hitting the right marks, so the future looks good!
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  2. #32
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    I also fully support warlock to get the reaver treatment.

    The aspect of warlock has always been there, it was never touched because it didn't have comparable single target to go with that cleave.
    Now warlock is just super-prenerf reaver that does even higher single target, it should be fixed.

    Make warlock an cleave soul with soso single target or make it high ST dps with garbage aoe or alright ST and alright aoe.

    You can't be reasonably asking for top ST top cleaving ranged and mobility all rolled into one. See Reaver for reason why.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 12-27-2016 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #33
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    I also fully support warlock to get the reaver treatment.

    The aspect of warlock has always been there, it was never touched because it didn't have comparable single target to go with that cleave.
    Now warlock is just super-prenerf reaver that does even higher single target, it should be fixed.

    Make warlock an cleave soul with soso single target or make it high ST dps with garbage aoe or alright ST and alright aoe.

    You can reasonably asking for top ST top cleaving ranged and mobility all rolled into one. See Reaver for reason why.
    To add onto this.

    Before SFP, warlock never had an ability that applied all of it's dots, but now with void barrage legendary, they can apply all dots every 20secs. This is crucial when considering why warlock is a problem now.

    It always had to build up it's dots before, which severely limited it's ST burst potential, it no longer has that handicap though.

    People don't realize that 100% passive bonus to all dots effectively means a warlock now applies twice the amount of dots onto someone, and then combine that with conflux legendary ( dots tic 3x as fast ) and it's basically as if a warlock applied -each- dot -five- times.

    And this happens all at once because void barrage applies ALL death dots.

    Hopefully now people can see why warlocks all of a sudden have ridiculous ST burst now, and couple that with their AOE cleave via spreading all those dots, and you can see why their numbers are just insane. In WF's it is not uncommon for a warlock to do triple the total damage of the person in 2nd place for damage dealt. That is crazy.
    Last edited by Orochan; 12-27-2016 at 09:50 AM.
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  4. #34
    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    This is a PTS thread, and it is about your opinions on how the classes feel or perform right now. Lets end talking about what certain souls are doing on LIVE. Anyone that brings that up would spend their time better checking the latest on PTS.... because what you all keep bringing up is not whats on PTS<------

    So Please... don't come in here to bash or try to get a soul you don't like torn apart, instead - talk about your favourite souls or what you have an issue with regarding to the ones you do like to play.

    If you don't like something and want it burned to the ground, this is not the place for it and certainly will distract people from what the thread is really about
    Last edited by MakeClericsGreatAgain; 12-27-2016 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #35
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    Anyone comparing 2015 reaver to lock needs to think back to 2015. Reaver had it much, much easier to cleave with 100% uptime on all their dots. At least with current Lock there are a few things you have to keep track of / multiple abilities to use.

    Right now, st might be a tiny bit high considering the cleave potential, but assuming 50% of lock damage is derived from dots (isn't it more than this? can't test it right now), st dps would be going down by as much as 20% or more as a result of this proposed nerf. I would much rather see reduced dot damage to spread targets, like with the plaguebringer update in late 2015. That's what this is all really about anyway, right? In pvp, having 500-600% dmg dots spread to multiple players is very OP, I agree, but don't take that out on the pvers, please.

    At the end of the day, most raid / dungeon bosses ARE single target. I wish there were more cleave fights, but there really aren't. This probably won't change. At most, it's usually a target swap, if anything. So, by gutting lock's ST potential, you're basically putting lock up on the shelf again. Very few endgame players are going to want to keep a lock role around when it's only useful for a handful of fights, and more challenging to play than several other specs available anyway.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeClericsGreatAgain View Post
    It feels depressing to play in the state its in, it will struggle to keep up with the 300k + / - dps that the dev's seem to want across the board for everyone.
    So you are reporting that on the PTS with some difficulty you can still hit the ST target numbers using a ranged AoE soul?

    Good to know.

  7. #37
    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you are reading into here. But that is now what I am saying at all. Warlocks will not reach the numbers that other dps souls are doing across all classes. Log on PTS and try for yourself, they will struggle to keep up, but fail miserably. They wont have a strong burst and they do not have a great sustain as the fight goes on---which is what theyre meant to do with the whole damage over time style and mechanics like death's door for example (the damage reductions are too harsh at the moment) They will pull weak numbers unless adjusted before the balance patch goes live.
    Last edited by MakeClericsGreatAgain; 12-27-2016 at 03:37 PM.

  8. #38
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    Funny, when Rogues and Primalists are at the top of the dps meter life is good. When it's a mage spec, the the nerf hammer must be applied. Just curious, why there was no commentary from the nerfmeisters when their own specs were OP? One more time, gut a spec in PvE, because of how it performs in PvP.
    Last edited by Gunian; 12-27-2016 at 09:11 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    Funny, when Rogues and Primalists are at the top of the dps meter life is good. When it's a mage spec, the the nerf hammer must be applied. Just curious, why there was no commentary from the nerfmeisters when their own specs were OP? One more time, gut a spec in PvE, because of how it performs in PvP.
    Actually multiple rogue players have said MM on PTS is super op and asked DEV to nerf it which Keyens did.
    Yet when it's a mage player all of a sudden it's oh no way you DIDNT!!1

    The OP marksman didn't even leave PTS and it's already nerfed back down, while some people just trying to do w/e they can to keep their LIVE gg ez status.

    I don't know anything about primalist so I stay away from it.

    My advise is just calm down, most of the changes that's currently on PTS are expected, let it pan out a bit. And for the record Pyromancer was top dps in game for a long time (which was beating 2nd highest dps spec by over 15%) for an entire tier actually.
    GG Pyro dominated everything ez from Binding of Blood release and didn't end until Nightmare Tide expansion and that's only due to scaling change.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 12-27-2016 at 09:28 PM.

  10. #40
    Sword of Telara Mordrahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunian View Post
    One more time, gut a spec in PvE, because of how it performs in PvP.
    As always, PVP calling for nerfs because someone killed them... the answer would be make things work differently for pvp and pve, is this not possible?
    All posts I see calling for mage nerfs are PVP... those who test PVE say otherwise, but will the devs hear them?

    Dimensions on Brisesol : Domaine Imari (Mordrahan) / Centre de recherches (Mordrahan) / Laboratoire glaciaire (Mordrahan) / Last hope (Aislyn) / Le refuge du Corbeau Rouge (Kasora) / Kelari spirit (Asri) / Ghost ship (Syel) / A la vie, la mort (Sadar) / Le chemin de l'harmonie (Sadar) / Temple Solaire (Sadar) / Refuge de montagne (Sadar)

  11. #41
    Sword of Telara Mordrahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    And for the record Pyromancer was top dps in game for a long time (which was beating 2nd highest dps spec by over 15%) for an entire tier actually.
    GG Pyro dominated everything ez from Binding of Blood release and didn't end until Nightmare Tide expansion and that's only due to scaling change.
    Exactly why I want Elem (and warlock) to survive as a competitive spec. No more pyro/harb only please.

    Dimensions on Brisesol : Domaine Imari (Mordrahan) / Centre de recherches (Mordrahan) / Laboratoire glaciaire (Mordrahan) / Last hope (Aislyn) / Le refuge du Corbeau Rouge (Kasora) / Kelari spirit (Asri) / Ghost ship (Syel) / A la vie, la mort (Sadar) / Le chemin de l'harmonie (Sadar) / Temple Solaire (Sadar) / Refuge de montagne (Sadar)

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrahan View Post
    Exactly why I want Elem (and warlock) to survive as a competitive spec. No more pyro/harb only please.
    Elepyro is still overtuned on PTS doing ~390k (Passive cleave + ST)
    Warlock ST is ~310k (Insane cleave)

    In contrast
    61 Reaver is ~310k (So so cleave)
    61 Tempest is ~330k (so so cleave)

    Mages are hardly in bad place even on PTS.
    Warlock is essentially better reaver than reaver and burst higher and cleaves 7 targets with higher burst while reaver can only cleave 3 at extremely gimped single target trade-off.

    Nerfs to elepyro is not nearly enough and it's still sitting at near 400k and with extremely low skill ceiling, sure its passive cleave is reduced but it's still free passive cleave while doing absolutely maximum single target dps something not every class have.

    There's zero reason why 61 tempest shouldn't beat pyroele but it isn't not even close.
    And there zero reason why reaver shouldn't out-cleave warlock considering their ST dps are very close but warlock is clearly far superior than reaver.

    Rogues has no viable passive cleave fully ranged spec to compare to mages.

    I fail to see the "horrible state" mage is currently in on PTS.
    Mages are at very least in better state than warriors on PTS yet all the complains we see are from mages.

    1 million dps passively cleave spec at max targets shouldn't be pulling 450k+ single target at the same time, and you really shouldn't be surprised that these kind of specs are getting balanced.

    Warlock's single target and burst is way too high for the amount of cleave it can do and how fast the burst could be delivered, this is a problem in both PvP and PvE.

    I am actually quite shocked for such a heavy nerf to warlock yet warlock still hit 300k dps pure single target no problem and that's WITHOUT legendary neddra's proccing. It's quite amazing really. Says how insane warlock was before this warranted nerf.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 12-28-2016 at 02:51 AM.

  13. #43
    Sword of Telara Mordrahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Elepyro is still overtuned on PTS doing ~390k (Passive cleave + ST)
    Nerfs to elepyro is not nearly enough and it's still sitting at near 400k and with extremely low skill ceiling, sure its passive cleave is reduced but it's still free passive cleave while doing absolutely maximum single target dps something not every class have.
    and how much dps does a 61 Ele spec ?
    the culprit in the OP hybrid is not the Ele part, it is the firestorm buff. I fear the Ele nerfs will kill the pure Ele ST spec.
    I never said firestorm buff/passive AOE sould stay as it is on live, this must be nerfed.

    Dimensions on Brisesol : Domaine Imari (Mordrahan) / Centre de recherches (Mordrahan) / Laboratoire glaciaire (Mordrahan) / Last hope (Aislyn) / Le refuge du Corbeau Rouge (Kasora) / Kelari spirit (Asri) / Ghost ship (Syel) / A la vie, la mort (Sadar) / Le chemin de l'harmonie (Sadar) / Temple Solaire (Sadar) / Refuge de montagne (Sadar)

  14. #44
    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Elepyro is still overtuned on PTS doing ~390k (Passive cleave + ST)
    Warlock ST is ~310k (Insane cleave)

    In contrast
    61 Reaver is ~310k (So so cleave)
    61 Tempest is ~330k (so so cleave)

    Mages are hardly in bad place even on PTS.
    Warlock is essentially better reaver than reaver and burst higher and cleaves 7 targets with higher burst while reaver can only cleave 3 at extremely gimped single target trade-off.

    Nerfs to elepyro is not nearly enough and it's still sitting at near 400k and with extremely low skill ceiling, sure its passive cleave is reduced but it's still free passive cleave while doing absolutely maximum single target dps something not every class have.

    There's zero reason why 61 tempest shouldn't beat pyroele but it isn't not even close.
    And there zero reason why reaver shouldn't out-cleave warlock considering their ST dps are very close but warlock is clearly far superior than reaver.

    Rogues has no viable passive cleave fully ranged spec to compare to mages.

    I fail to see the "horrible state" mage is currently in on PTS.
    Mages are at very least in better state than warriors on PTS yet all the complains we see are from mages.

    1 million dps passively cleave spec at max targets shouldn't be pulling 450k+ single target at the same time, and you really shouldn't be surprised that these kind of specs are getting balanced.

    Warlock's single target and burst is way too high for the amount of cleave it can do and how fast the burst could be delivered, this is a problem in both PvP and PvE.

    I am actually quite shocked for such a heavy nerf to warlock yet warlock still hit 300k dps pure single target no problem and that's WITHOUT legendary neddra's proccing. It's quite amazing really. Says how insane warlock was before this warranted nerf.
    I know how you love to argue, and get personal- but I just want to talk about your numbers... not sure where you are getting those from but if we are talking raid boss dummy or ST fights in general - with best possible gear-- on PTS Ele/Pyro are pulling 300-350 at most on average.. most will be below 300 because of gear difference or just bad RNG on ele burst. Warlocks are much much worse- they aren't even reaching that 300 mark unless you are counting fights that only last 30 seconds-1min. (Ele/pyro has a chance to be sitting in the 200ks for quite while because of how awefull Ele burst is when you don't win that RNG fight)

    ----> there has been ALOT of changes on PTS- if you tried how mages were on pts a week+ or a few days ago- things are not the same as they were... Mages have been hit at least 2-3 times already... most don't realize this.

    - I really wish everyone would log onto PTS day to day for a few minutes and try out the classes or souls they discuss instead of getting into a war of comparing apples to oranges based on changes that have happened a week ago. This is NOT ABOUT BASHING OR RUINING SOULS because you like your warrior or rogue better - time is better spent on what could be improved or what isn't working right. Too many are voicing their opinions on how pts changes were a week+ ago ( when there has been many changes since)

    I am actually shocked at the amount of people that are screaming ALL CLASSES should be the same- whatever happened to unique souls or playstyles.... Why are we comparing everything based on how much they can cleave, dmg or burst.... I would think its going to be a very boring game if every soul has a similar burst or similar cleave or similar untility /healing. We should have souls that are amazing at long term fights, we should have souls that perform better on mobile fights, etc etc.. Right now it feels like the aim is to water every class down to be the same in every aspect. Things like bards, warlocks, inquisitors should all have a unique play style and not strive to be the same generic thing just to go along with Balance. Look at Puri for example (which has been butchered mercilessly) great idea for a unique style healer that has been left in the dust for the most part- there are very few options for it to catch up or spot aoe heal which is most likely the reason its so unused.
    Last edited by MakeClericsGreatAgain; 12-28-2016 at 08:30 AM.

  15. #45
    Sword of Telara Mordrahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeClericsGreatAgain View Post
    if we are talking raid boss dummy or ST fights in general - with best possible gear--
    yes this is what really matters, not trash cleaving aoes...

    on PTS Ele/Pyro are pulling 300-350 at most on average.. most will be below 300 because of gear difference or just bad RNG on ele burst. (Ele/pyro has a chance to be sitting in the 200ks for quite while because of how awefull Ele burst is when you don't win that RNG fight)
    So on ST fight, the ele-pyro hybrid hits the target dps range, but with a wide random margin between bad and good? not very appealing... I hate random dps.
    And if it is there with the firestorm buff, I suppose 61 ele without it is in the bottom of the barrel... can you please parse it to get an idea?

    Dimensions on Brisesol : Domaine Imari (Mordrahan) / Centre de recherches (Mordrahan) / Laboratoire glaciaire (Mordrahan) / Last hope (Aislyn) / Le refuge du Corbeau Rouge (Kasora) / Kelari spirit (Asri) / Ghost ship (Syel) / A la vie, la mort (Sadar) / Le chemin de l'harmonie (Sadar) / Temple Solaire (Sadar) / Refuge de montagne (Sadar)

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