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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: OFFICIAL FEEDBACK: Public Test Server Balance changes, PART II

  1. #16
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aayden View Post
    I know it won't ever do the same amount of dps as regular tempest, but 1 button is doing more dps than every other warrior spec at the moment.
    Well, you can see it like this or it is the other way arround. How bad are our other dps specs that they can not owne a one button spec which don't parse higher then the other classes. If they nerf tempest, they have to give us something else or we are in real troubles.

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  2. #17
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuttertools View Post
    Snipped about Warlock, for brevity
    The issue isn't PvP. The issue is the same issue that many souls that overperform have. It's their toolkit. The very same reason Reaver came under fire. A soul like Warlock, in design, has very high single target, very awesome multi target, and excellent full AoE capabilities. When you have a soul that can fill that many niches with pretty much 100% mobility, it breaks game balance.

    If you enjoy the soul that much, and you want it's single target powerful damage to survive, then you'll need to lobby for the removal or severe nerfing of its AoE capabilites. If you want to maintain the rapidly spreadable DoT's and AoE cleave capabilites, then you'll need to understand and accept a single target nerf.

    You cannot have both. Other souls like Pyromancer, Elementalist, Necromancer, and Harbinger exist, and they need to fill roles too. They need to have distinct advantages over Warlock in areas, or no one will play anything but, which is why 9/10 times right now, you'll see mages playing an overtuned elementalist variant or warlock in pretty much all content on live. Because even the 1 buttons are outperforming the crap out of everything.

    Try to give feedback from an "every" class perspective, and avoid the "Don't nerf my class!" stuff.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    You cannot have both. Other souls like Pyromancer, Elementalist, Necromancer, and Harbinger exist, and they need to fill roles too. They need to have distinct advantages over Warlock in areas, or no one will play anything but, which is why 9/10 times right now, you'll see mages playing an overtuned elementalist variant or warlock in pretty much all content on live. Because even the 1 buttons are outperforming the crap out of everything.
    Maybe you play only the FOTM spec, but many people want to choose their spec because they like it, because they like the gameplay and feeling.
    I see it the other way, everybody plays the same because the other specs are bad.
    What the devs must do if they can is not nerf the good specs, but give us a larger choice, with every spec being good, and with a slight (but not more than 10%) margin allowed between the best spec and the worse one.
    No "avantage" needed, only player choice.
    If we can play whatever spec we like, and be competitive, I'm sure you will see more diversity.

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  4. #19
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    Some opinions I have on Warlock -

    Legendary Neddra's grasp - This spell isn't guaranteed to be used to it's full effectiveness, if at all depending on the fight. I remember it wasn't even recommended to use this spell in certain fights last expansion. Maybe encounters are going to be changed now, but this also makes it hard to balance around especially since it's a 20% damage buff every time it's used (on the enemy not on you). This means Lock could be too far behind on some fights and too far ahead of what the devs envision it should be at.

    A quick suggestion I could give is that since the spell lasts 15 seconds and has 5 stacks just make sure a stack goes off at least once every 3 seconds.

    Legendary Conflux - To min/max dps on this spec for parses that last about 5 minutes you stop using void bolt since it refreshes life leech because legendary conflux is a significant DPS gain in the longer parses. This isn't as apparent in the dungeons because everything dies in about a minute or two. I would suggest either have a toggle to make it so that void bolt does not refresh life leech, or change legendary conflux to some type of passive, where dots do more damage as the fight goes on.

    I personally find legendary conflux clunky but I'm sure there are other warlocks that love the idea of actually letting your DoTs tick for their full duration rather then just mindlessly refreshing dots.

    Harb -

    Best thing we can do for this spec is normalize GCD. Since Galvanic Strike is a Slashing attack perhaps we can reduce that to one second. Then maybe make bloom non instant unless speced into like before, or even maybe just a passive on Vile Spores that makes it shoot out 5 vile spores every ten seconds or something. We also need to make it so that legendary bloom will hit a single target or multiple targets if we want it to. Really it seems from the other threads with dev feedback that harb is considered to be in a "good spot" though, so I imagine any changes done to harb would just to make the spec feel less clunky. It can just be disheartening to see 20-25% of your DPS is VS.
    Last edited by TheWeirdOne; 12-25-2016 at 06:31 PM.
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  5. #20
    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    Default Elementalist legendary - not so legendary

    So ELEMENTAL BURST has been toned down again- even further recently.... and right now its just been turned into a complete joke ...... just to give you an idea because most people at trion find this hillarious or are oblivious to how bad this really is. Lets show the tooltip of Elemental Burst after recent changes --> 69k-77k <-- That is the NORMAL VERSION . And here is the tooltip for the legendary version 31-33k that has a chance,,,,,,, and I repeat a CHANCE to echo or fail. This means that every time you cast this you have a 1in5 chance of it not echoing and doing QUITE ABIT LESS<<<< and this is the key word---- LESS than the NORMAL version..

    Dear TRION how can you call this embarrassment of a spell to be even categorized as LEGENDARY , is common sense not a real thing anymore in this world... this thing is a complete lie to your player base because you promised us a new Expansion with new AMAZING LEGENDARY powers that will MAKE YOUR CHARACTER OR PLAYSTYLE - BETTER IN SOME WAY.... why is this joke of a spell have such a poor reward if you win and a horribly negative much worse than normal punishment if you don't win the luck based cast.
    This is driving me crazy that you think this is a LEGENDARY worthy spell.. what other class has a chance to have the spell become MUCH MUCH weaker than a normal version... this is a joke or just complete ignorance on the idea which used to be good.... now you decide you want players to have a 1 in 5 chance of it affecting their DPS NEGATIVELY as opposed to picking the normal version of the spell.

    ------------> To anyone unfamiliar with Elementalist - the spell I am discussing here is ELEMENTAL BURST and it is the absolute Pinnacle and top of the ELEMENTALIST tree ... which usually means it should be a really great spell <---- WRONG, all those points you put into the tree to get up there reward you with a big shiny turd - Gotcha! suckerrrrrrr!!!
    Last edited by MakeClericsGreatAgain; 12-26-2016 at 07:47 AM.

  6. #21
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeClericsGreatAgain View Post
    So ELEMENTAL BURST has been toned down again- even further recently.... and right now its just been turned into a complete joke ...... just to give you an idea because most people at trion find this hillarious or are oblivious to how bad this really is. Lets show the tooltip of Elemental Burst after recent changes --> 69k-76k <-- That is the NORMAL VERSION . And here is the tooltip for the legendary version 31-34k that has a chance,,,,,,, and I repeat a CHANCE to echo or fail. This means that every time you cast this you have a 1in5 chance of it not echoing and doing QUITE ABIT LESS<<<< and this is the key word---- LESS than the NORMAL version..

    Dear TRION how can you call this embarrassment of a spell to be even categorized as LEGENDARY , is common sense not a real thing anymore in this world... this thing is a complete lie to your player base because you promised us a new Expansion with new AMAZING LEGENDARY powers that will MAKE YOUR CHARACTER OR PLAYSTYLE - BETTER IN SOME WAY.... why is this joke of a spell have such a poor reward if you win and a horribly negative much worse than normal punishment if you don't win the luck based cast.
    This is driving me crazy that you think this is a LEGENDARY worthy spell.. what other class has a chance to have the spell become MUCH MUCH weaker than a normal version... this is a joke or just complete ignorance on the idea which used to be good.... now you decide you want players to have a 1 in 5 chance of it affecting their DPS NEGATIVELY as opposed to picking the normal version of the spell.

    ------------> To anyone unfamiliar with Elementalist - the spell I am discussing here is ELEMENTAL BURST and it is the absolute Pinnacle and top of the ELEMENTALIST tree ... which usually means it should be a really great spell <---- WRONG, all those points you put into the tree to get up there reward you with a big shiny turd - Gotcha! suckerrrrrrr!!!
    I think they need to go back to what it is live. Then up the cool down to balance the damage.

    It's silly. If it don't crit it's less than normal. If it doesn't echo it does less than a normal one.

    Make it good. Make it silly powerful. Raise the cool down so you can make it legendary.

    And can we please stop with EVERY single DPS soul as a mage has to take points in a tanking soul to DPS. How is this good design?

    I shouldn't have to as a range spec have to run into melee every 30 seconds so my DPS doesn't suck. That is about a chunky as it gets. If I wanted to melee I'd be a melee spec.

    Just stop it please. It's not fun. Interesting. Or exciting game play at all. Why any Dev would think it was is beyond me.

  7. #22
    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    The legendary Galvanic Strike is turned into a ranged attack, its no longer a melee version. But yes I would have to agree that the side souls that are being offered to us are extremely boring and there aren't any options for them other than Arb or Dom 0 point legendaries. People want to do their best and those are the only options to raise dps and very poor ones at that - Galvanic Strike Feels very clunky and unpleasant... but the dps boost is just too good to pass up. The Dom 0 point legendary is so so at best, but it allows you for more of a fluid and competent rotation without any stumbles with whatever build its linked to.

  8. #23
    Prophet of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissibow View Post
    And can we please stop with EVERY single DPS soul as a mage has to take points in a tanking soul to DPS. How is this good design?

    I shouldn't have to as a range spec have to run into melee every 30 seconds so my DPS doesn't suck. That is about a chunky as it gets. If I wanted to melee I'd be a melee spec
    Uh, legendary Galvanic Strike has a 30m range tho...

  9. #24
    RIFT Guide Writer Deeew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissibow View Post

    Just stop it please.
    Do you mage?
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  10. #25
    Rift Chaser ChamberDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrahan View Post
    Maybe you play only the FOTM spec, but many people want to choose their spec because they like it, because they like the gameplay and feeling.
    I see it the other way, everybody plays the same because the other specs are bad.
    What the devs must do if they can is not nerf the good specs, but give us a larger choice, with every spec being good, and with a slight (but not more than 10%) margin allowed between the best spec and the worse one.
    No "avantage" needed, only player choice.
    If we can play whatever spec we like, and be competitive, I'm sure you will see more diversity.
    That also means every DPS soul would need to be good at ST, Cleave, and AOE, otherwise you'd have many of the souls like Pyro for instance that would be at a severe disadvantage.

    You're missing a key design element, "diversity" will be more present after tuning, because different souls excel at different things, based on scenarios and situations (of which we don't have many of currently until more dungeons and the raid comes out). You might have fast target swaps required in a fight. A spec that is bad at swaps, but has high dps when they can stay focused on one target won't be used. You might have 2 high HP adds, that require something like warlock for best cleave contribution to the fight, or maybe you have a DPS check style fight, where you just need the highest burst in 20 seconds that you can get, and you just pick the soul that has bad sustained DPS, but its front loaded burst is the best in the game. Or maybe you have 1 small boss, and 7 adds, and you need to play a pure AoE monster for best results in controlling the battlefield. All these things are what makes having unique capabilities in souls important. Variety. The ability to see and choose what you want to play for a given scenario, that one facet is what Rift is built on.

    With what you propose, you could use warlock for virtually all of those. That's diversity? Or do you mean we should make every soul have the same toolkit, just different style? So people can choose one soul and stick to it, and never change again? That, IMO, won't ever happen, and I would heavily disagree with your logic.

    P.S. I will play whatever is strongest for whatever scenario because my favorite part of Rift is the end game raiding in the past. I can also play many, MANY other specs across all 5 callings, not just FOTM specs. See youtube channel in signature for proof.

    I have my favorite souls too, but I also understand the need for different capabilities, and think what you propose would ruin the game, if I'm being honest.
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  11. #26
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    The precedent for warlock has already been set with reaver. So expect similiar nerfs to happen in the future. Chamberdown is absolutely right. No dps soul should be able to have huge ST burst/sustain, coupled with AOE/cleave that warlock does atm, at no penalty either.

    Warlock also has some great utility as well in it's defensive CD's, coupled with mage off soul choices generally being the best in rift in terms of low level utility anyways.
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  12. #27
    Telaran MakeClericsGreatAgain's Avatar
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    There is still a lot of talk about warlock being great - but I assure you if you try it out on PTS in open world environment or a raid boss dummy you will understand how terribly weak it has become after the 70% dot dmg reduction.

    I sincerely believe it is a very much subpar soul in the state that it is in on PTS - and it will be a forgotten soul for any competitive environment. I have tried all the dps souls that I play on my mage, and on my cleric and sadly this is definitely the weakest in any combination of side souls, harb is a mess as well but that needs a lot more work and finetuning. Pure damage over time souls such as this one aren't meant to have the burst that they used to have before the reductions, but it should feel rewarding as the fight goes on longer... yet it absolutely does not.

    It feels depressing to play in the state its in, it will struggle to keep up with the 300k + / - dps that the dev's seem to want across the board for everyone.

    Id like to see some something creative done with this soul to keep its style. Maybe instead of adding things like 100% dot dmg incr. (which is now 30% on PTS) the warlock could have an awesome effect on all dots like Death's Door (but from full life) where you wont have that burst, but the lower a boss gets on life- the deadlier each tick on every dot becomes.
    Last edited by MakeClericsGreatAgain; 12-26-2016 at 08:37 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    The precedent for warlock has already been set with reaver. So expect similiar nerfs to happen in the future. Chamberdown is absolutely right. No dps soul should be able to have huge ST burst/sustain, coupled with AOE/cleave that warlock does atm, at no penalty either.

    Warlock also has some great utility as well in it's defensive CD's, coupled with mage off soul choices generally being the best in rift in terms of low level utility anyways.
    OK, plz pvp players can you stay on your ONe button elem or 2 button Pyromancer so they don't nerf our Warlock spec ... :c

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberDown View Post
    That also means every DPS soul would need to be good at ST, Cleave, and AOE, otherwise you'd have many of the souls like Pyro for instance that would be at a severe disadvantage.
    I don't think so... there are fights where you must be strict ST with no cleave, there are fights where cleaving is useful, there are dual target fights, there are very mobile fights. No spec is perfect for everything.
    The key for me is fun. Do you choose the spec you like, or do you play the only competitive spec you get?

    All these things are what makes having unique capabilities in souls important. Variety. The ability to see and choose what you want to play for a given scenario, that one facet is what Rift is built on.
    In a perfect world, yes. When all specs are good.
    RIFT gives us a wonderful soulkit, with endless hybridation potential. It's a pity we always end with one or two cookie-cutter OP builds and everything else in the bottom of the barrel.
    But when you get only one or two competitive specs, you have to play them and nothing else. In NT no one played full archon, no one played elem. I don't want to see another pyro-harb reign for a full extension.

    With what you propose, you could use warlock for virtually all of those. That's diversity? Or do you mean we should make every soul have the same toolkit, just different style? So people can choose one soul and stick to it, and never change again?
    If they want, yes. This does no harm. I know endgame raiders don't do that, but many players do for various reasons. I don't play warlock because I don't like the dot playstyle, but I know people who enjoy it a lot.
    More player choice is the key. I prefer everything being good.

    And while we speak of toolkits, please give Elem an interrupt, and let the 61 Elem live.
    I will take a competitive pure elem spec over the firestorm pyro hybrid. Putting AOE spells in ST specs is not a thing I enjoy. And I worry about what will be left of the pure Ele spec with all the nerfs in the Ele tree.

    Specs never have been balanced, and I hope (but doubt) that they will do the 10% margin thing. So people who want to change specs for every fight can do it, and people who want to play only the specs they like can do it too.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrahan View Post
    I don't think so... there are fights where you must be strict ST with no cleave, there are fights where cleaving is useful, there are dual target fights, there are very mobile fights. No spec is perfect for everything.
    The key for me is fun. Do you choose the spec you like, or do you play the only competitive spec you get?
    I am sure all specs are fun if you are by default automatically 20-30% higher than the next guy playing full 100% strict single target melee spec without any disconnect while pulling 500% higher passive AoE while being almost fully mobile.... yea I would have lots of fun too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrahan View Post
    In a perfect world, yes. When all specs are good.
    RIFT gives us a wonderful soulkit, with endless hybridation potential. It's a pity we always end with one or two cookie-cutter OP builds and everything else in the bottom of the barrel.
    But when you get only one or two competitive specs, you have to play them and nothing else. In NT no one played full archon, no one played elem. I don't want to see another pyro-harb reign for a full extension.
    I don't want to see passive cleaving pyroele/warlock aka Reaver 3.0-plus-kai-ultra-ZX dominating the next highest guy by 30% dps by default and 500% in passive aoe. It will make this expansion a tragedy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrahan View Post
    If they want, yes. This does no harm. I know endgame raiders don't do that, but many players do for various reasons. I don't play warlock because I don't like the dot playstyle, but I know people who enjoy it a lot.
    More player choice is the key. I prefer everything being good.
    Yep without any of the OP spec stupidity that's blatantly OP like pyroele and warlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrahan View Post
    And while we speak of toolkits, please give Elem an interrupt, and let the 61 Elem live.
    I will take a competitive pure elem spec over the firestorm pyro hybrid. Putting AOE spells in ST specs is not a thing I enjoy. And I worry about what will be left of the pure Ele spec with all the nerfs in the Ele tree.

    Specs never have been balanced, and I hope (but doubt) that they will do the 10% margin thing. So people who want to change specs for every fight can do it, and people who want to play only the specs they like can do it too.
    Assassin doesn't have an interrupt either. Has garbage utilities compare to elementalist, can't cleave at all and does like half dps of pyro/ele in pure single target, dps about 20% of pyro/ele dps when disconnected.

    Yep specs will never be fully balance but when you got a ranged mobile spec pulling more dps than melee and cleave for 5x extra on top, it's so stupid it shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

    Sincerely yours.

    Or I guess dev can give every calling a button that does 500,000 damage every second while splashing 1,000,000 damage a second passively. So everyone can be comparable to what mages have... but then I guess the game will not be very fun as it's more fun if only 1 calling could do it.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 12-27-2016 at 09:35 AM.

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