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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rift is officially PaytoWin

  1. #406
    Telaran Cassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Furthermore, you cannot buy in game currency with cash so I cannot understand why you are creating that argument since it can be easily misinterpreted.
    The most important use for planarite and IS is to make source machines. If you have 2 chars with 2 specs (tank/dps), that's 4 source machines minimum. If you toss in some resist cores, that's easily 6+ cores. Some people have ap and cp cores etc. So if you add up the costs of all these things and compare the usage of the currencies, you are going to find a very strong relationship. That is, if you could buy the lessers, the foci, the focus rune directly with $ it's the same as buying the currency first and then spending it on these things. If you had 1,000,000 infinity stones, how would you spend them? Mostly on source machines, cloaks and the like. You can do that with the cash shop. The only time you hit a bottleneck for these currencies on live is when you are making a new source machine from scratch. I am emphasizing this transactional equivalence to make this important point that they effectively made those currencies for sale directly. It's like if a company comes to a politician and buys them a huge mansion set with a garage of cars and then says it's not a monetary bribe. But from politician's point of view, having got the expensive items, it's the same if they were given a suitcase of money directly. Which is why such gifts in kind are declared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Notoriety/faction/PvP ranks still have to be obtained. So it is not an issue of simply spending cash and obtaining it.
    [Notoriety] You could buy 45k notoriety for torvan/lycini at a finite cost= (#hours played to max) x ($1.5 per hour). It would be no different than offering a specific item with one time use that approximated this expected value, somewhere around $30-$50.

    [PvP ranks]The sets upgrade into each other and usually you don't finish Freelancer set by rank 70. By buying the Freelancer pieces at r70 you could put all warlord marks into the BIS set. Most players find they have to replace between 1 and 3 blue items after they hit r70 and having to miss some warlord marks in progress. Because you need the previous set for the direct upgrade, by buying the remaining pieces you are advancing towards your Warlord set directly (approx value about 1 warlord piece).

    The BIS source machine requires only r60, yet costs >13k CQ marks, by far the biggest part of the CQ grind. The seal, trinket and runes cost less than 10k.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    The reason people say "its not a big deal you can use in game currency" is because b the time you complete your notoriety you will have obtained all of in game currency you require for it.
    For 1 t2 source machine possibly, for 2? Don't think so. And many players would like to have 4-6 machines. Furthermore, alts don't need the rep, they just need the main to have the rep and a BoA sigil. So it's just a currency grind for the alts. Since you can't tag events on 2 chars from the same account at once, the time it takes to grind for the alt is double. The same holds for the offspec.

    You are not required to pay anything.
    If you want to get the best things faster, yes you do. These are not hypotheticals, ask anyone who is raiding on two characters what they think about refurbishing their 4 source machines by grind vs. cash shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    One of my guildies has over 60k in platinum through AH transactions alone.
    But you don't? Most market cornering strategies by necessity cannot be generalized to the population as a whole. They rely on monopoly power and wealth transfers from large number of people to one person. The average wealth that population can acquire eventually reduces to plat coming from quests/mobs minus money sinks like repairs and mounts.

    Not sure where you are going with this. At current gold farmer prices, he's worth about $960. So when REX comes out, he can buy 150 rep vials and 150 token vials. At 5 hours per day, this is going to last him 60 days. If he wants to buy some source machines his 60k should be good for 30 days of 5hours/day.

    If he wants to earn 10k-30k plat on AH to spend it on REX every month to be competitive, that's a tall order. I guarantee you there are way more people who'll spend $200-400/month than those who are willing to grind out 10k-30k plat per month to spend on REX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Furthermore, why would a cash shop player spend hundreds of dollars to fine tune sigils by constantly buying and removing the sigils?
    Are you thinking of unsocketing? No, simply making BIS machine for various combinations of resist and stats for different specs and raid damage. I can see how a competitive rogue, warrior or cleric can sink about 10,000 infinity stones (300,000IS after rescaling by 30) and 900,000 planarite into source machines per character. Some players still have 2-3k inscribed from the old days that they can cover this planarite, though most raiders wont have that kind of stones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Several of the BIS sigils are obtained solely from raid rifts.
    Some lessers, not actually whole sigils. You'll want these situational glass cannon lessers in some source machines and then in other source machines you'll weigh endurance higher so you won't use them, which is one of the reasons for needing multiple source machines with duplicates of the same couple torvan/lycini lessers that I've outlined above. Raid lessers tend to have higher cp/sp but less endurance and fewer total stats, so the shop lessers are still important for raiding where aoe damage is significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    So you are suggesting that TRION go back to p2p?
    Despite the fact that it is clear that to remain on such a system would result in the shutting down of the game, which means the loss of jobs for employee responsible for RIFT and the loss of the game for consumers.
    Straw man. They can sell pets, cosmetics, transmuted weapons. No stats, no gear. If they want to follow League of Legends model, they'd need to have an in-game saga quest to unlock new souls as alternative to the cash shop soul pack. That would be ideal. This would let their game last longer, rather than burning through like a firework in short term. In terms of League analogy, imagine being able to buy the "starter" minor health/mana potions, starter boots/rings etc with $$ for every match and then saying it's not BIS item, who cares and then ask for feedback from the competitive LoL community.

    I understand why they're going F2P but they don't have to do P2W. Some games as you point didn't go P2W but the writing on the wall to me says they're following the Turbine model. Both games were successful for a number of years as p2p and then as subs dwindled the development shifted partially into cashshop monetization schemes. You can see it by comparing carnival ver1 vs. more recent carnival ver2 and lack of SL pet prizes from artifact/zone meta collections.

    P2W slippery slope is a cash grab, minimizes development time. It is less costlier to burn the game down in 6months with high revenues rather than a steady development and maintenance cycle with medium revenues over 3 years but not necessarily more profitable in the long run.

    I advocate focusing on making a great product rather than on the bottom line for one quarter.
    Last edited by Cassin; 05-23-2013 at 12:39 PM.
    <Addiction> GM(Rift). 4/4 FT, 5/5 EE.

  2. #407
    Rift Disciple Blytzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    So, thing is. If the game is tuned so that people who are bored right now because they ran out of progression have plenty of time sinks, then everyone else gets bored -- and the people who run out of progression content are a vanishingly small minority in MMOs. Making them happy while everyone else thinks it's tedious and there's no point because the rewards don't justify the effort means you run out of people. If you try to tune it too far the other way, then you end up with a ton of people who ran out of stuff, and are bored, and a small number of people who are loving that they get to see all the stuff in the tiny amount of time they play.
    Why does having time sinks make people bored? I am normally bored when I have nothing to do out side of raiding.

    If you shorten/remove those times sinks (faction, currency grinding) than for many players all you will see is raid logging. That in itself is already happening and would only get worse.

    Which is terrible for a community especially one that is going to have a large influx of new players with the F2P change.
    SOUL FORGED 4/4 TotDQ - 4/4 FT - 4/5 EE www.soul-forged.com
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  3. #408
    Soulwalker
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    why rift moderators or stuff , does not respont in this thread? may they shy cause they lie hard to us?

  4. #409
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    Changes on PTS

    1. Token vial does not apply to Frozen Eclipse Stones
    2. Venerated rep essences cannot be purchased with credits

    However, how can we test the cash shop stuff if we can't even buy it? Is there not a PTS vendor that gives credits?
    Last edited by Ahov; 05-23-2013 at 12:48 PM.

  5. #410
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronalyn View Post
    why rift moderators or stuff , does not respont in this thread? may they shy cause they lie hard to us?
    ... There are 9 developer posts in this thread alone.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/public-te...ml#post4254678 Click the little circle next to the post number to move to the next dev post.


  6. #411
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Changes on PTS

    1. Token vial does not apply to Frozen Eclipse Stones
    2. Venerated rep essences cannot be purchased with credits

    Thanks Daglar.
    Thank goodness.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blytzz View Post
    Nothing "broad" about my statement, especially if it's in reference to BiS items.
    Actually it is pretty broad given that pay to win is based off of f2p games such as RoM where you need to play in order to compete/beat the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blytzz View Post
    The gear progression in MMOs is the driving force of the player base. Either through PVP, questing, raiding, etc.

    IF you can buy the best item with real money INSTEAD of earning through playing the game that is Pay 2 Win.
    Not really, that's pay to have no grind.
    You don't need to pay in order to beat content or compete.
    Let alone you still have to grind out the notoriety ranks anyway. So moot point on your part.

  8. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronalyn View Post
    why rift moderators or stuff , does not respont in this thread? may they shy cause they lie hard to us?
    "Lie" is a really strong word.

    btw, just for your information, it's 'respond' and 'maybe'. ;P
    I for one welcome my new F2P Overlords

  9. #414
    Rift Disciple Blytzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Changes on PTS

    1. Token vial does not apply to Frozen Eclipse Stones
    2. Venerated rep essences cannot be purchased with credits
    YEAH!!! That maybe one small step for the Devs but a giant leap for the community!
    SOUL FORGED 4/4 TotDQ - 4/4 FT - 4/5 EE www.soul-forged.com
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  10. #415
    Telaran Nemu Asakura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Changes on PTS

    1. Token vial does not apply to Frozen Eclipse Stones
    2. Venerated rep essences cannot be purchased with credits

    However, how can we test the cash shop stuff if we can't even buy it? Is there not a PTS vendor that gives credits?
    /thread

    Good discussion though.

    Until next time~

  11. #416
    Rift Chaser DarkFalls's Avatar
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    So BiS Ess/Capes are no longer sold for Credits but the Token Tablet still exists (and Favor/Prestige pots were added). The Tablet does however now say that it does not apply to Frozen Eclipse Stones making the entire token tablet redundant as you can buy the dungeon / world token gears yourself. It's an alright compromise.

    Looking for more alterations.

    The Loyalty Tiers are up with some teasers too~
    Last edited by DarkFalls; 05-23-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    snip
    No, your argument is not that of buying currency.
    For one, the buying of currency would introduce inflation within RIFT and create a lessening of value.

    This is more along the lines of substituting one currency with another, it isn't the same.
    Your own argument is one of substitution and replacement, not of gaining said currency which is different.

    I can understand the premise, but it is inaccurate to make such a suggestion and easily misinterpreted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    snip
    Inaccurate. The 100% notoriety potion does not ahve 100% up time on it.
    There are waiting times, travel times, poor gameplay, etc etc.
    You do not gain the full benefit of 100%, and it may vary depending on each person.

    Buying notoriety=/= increasing notoriety gain.
    Given that that the latter does not remove the grind, it merely shortens it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    The BIS source machine requires only r60, yet costs >13k CQ marks, by far the biggest part of the CQ grind. The seal, trinket and runes cost less than 10k.
    It really isn't BIS given that Warlord essences/seals are in the game but not available to plyers for some reason.
    That i just a technicality so meh.

    IMO, one of the better solutions to that issue you mention, as I suggested in revious topics in the past, is to lessen the amount of marks required.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    For 1 t2 source machine possibly, for 2? Don't think so. And many players would like to have 4-6 machines. Furthermore, alts don't need the rep, they just need the main to have the rep and a BoA sigil. So it's just a currency grind for the alts. Since you can't tag events on 2 chars from the same account at once, the time it takes to grind for the alt is double. The same holds for the offspec.
    You get 30+ IS from volan.
    40 from doing the dailies in steppes and Ashora.
    you get 10 marks for every event you tag.
    You get an additional 11 for DRR.
    Another 11 from the weekly.
    Each glorified IS requires 240.

    If we assume you did only the dailies, 1 volan, and tagged 5 events, you would gain over 100 ISS.
    This means that at the very least you'd have to a little over 2 weeks worth of grinding in order to create a BIS sigil for both of your alts.
    Given that 3 of the BIS Rogues and Mages are from raid rifts which you can easily reserve for yourself.

    That is a very small grind and a very small amount of time spent in gam.
    If we assume you go ona spree, you can afford an essence within a single damage.
    So at best, we are talking about a week?
    This is not including the new carnage quests that are now available in Dendrome as well as the dailies which give a larger amount of IS than other dailies in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    If you want to get the best things faster, yes you do. These are not hypotheticals, ask anyone who is raiding on two characters what they think about refurbishing their 4 source machines by grind vs. cash shop.
    Strawman.
    The argument was about necessity, not about speed.
    Yes, if you want to get it faster you would need to get the item that speeds up the grind.
    That is the purpose of the item.
    Does it remove the grind? No.
    Merely decreases it.
    Do you need it to compete? Nope.

    Given how you acquire BIS items it won't make a massive difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post

    But you don't?
    Irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    snipped for space
    The original argument was about the lack of plat for an individual.
    If we go based on dailies alone/mob drops, an individual can easily make 100 plat within an hour or two.

    Selling foraging mats alone can easily make you 1000 plat within a day.
    Its not a particularly large issue to obtain plat in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    Are you thinking of unsocketing? No, simply making BIS machine for various combinations of resist and stats for different specs and raid damage. I can see how a competitive rogue, warrior or cleric can sink about 10,000 infinity stones (300,000IS after rescaling by 30) and 900,000 planarite into source machines per character. Some players still have 2-3k inscribed from the old days that they can cover this planarite, though most raiders wont have that kind of stones.
    You can gain well over 5k planarite from doing a single Great Hunt RIFT with a raid.
    Each one also provides IS and as I stated above, acquiring IS is not an issue given that BIS items/essences INCLUDING resist based essences is a mixture of BOTH raid rifts and Torvan.

    You can pay cash, or you can simply deal with the grind.
    Given that you cannot use the vendor essences until you get the notoriety, the amount of essences you'd have by that time would lessen the amount of work you spend having to acquire store items

    The argument that needs to be made is the rate at which you acquire the items, not necessarily the effort.
    Is the grind so long that the individual who uses money is at an unfair advantage?
    Or is the grind so minimal that the cash is a convenience rather than a necessity?

    At the moment if we consider raiding or PvP, this is focused solely upon a single character, and in this case the grind really is not an issue.

    Money gets you items faster.
    Is the speed at which it gains you the items significantly faster?
    At the moment I would say no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    Some lessers, not actually whole sigils. You'll want these situational glass cannon lessers in some source machines and then in other source machines you'll weigh endurance higher so you won't use them, which is one of the reasons for needing multiple source machines with duplicates of the same couple torvan/lycini lessers that I've outlined above. Raid lessers tend to have higher cp/sp but less endurance and fewer total stats, so the shop lessers are still important for raiding where aoe damage is significant.
    The argument was based upon the context of items that are BIS.

    If we are shifting the argument to one that is not BIS the argument changes a little bit.

    If we are considering essences/sigils that are endurance heavy, then it costs about 1400+ infinity stones, given the current amount and not th emultiplier.

    For a single individual who goes at a very casual place, and probably not a raider, you can acquire all of the endurance heavy torvan within 2 weeks.
    This is also ignoring the fact that many raids can also suffice using blue essences that are also endurance heavy and also use empyrean sourcestones.
    Which are greater in number and the less costly than IS items.

    This is assuming non-BIS in which case, not as much pressure to pay cash given you can simply acquire any of the essences below Revered/Venerated much more easily and quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassin View Post
    snip
    An understandable point of view, and given that currently on the PTS the essences don't cost any credits, it appears that they are willing to budge on the matter.
    Provided the items are not raid equivalent I do not care if they provide lesser gear/essences for cash.
    Simply because that can only help in recruitement since it means not having to gear people up as heavily.

    As I stated earlier, the issue is that p2w differs from person to person.
    Mine is that of needing to spend money in order to compete/complete the game like with RoM.

    Currently, it is not p2w given the amount of grinding needed for a SINGLE character is not great and many of the essences can be substituted.

    I think the argument needs to shift back a little bit and fall upon an agreeable definition of p2w before it can continue. Otherwise, the discussion is inhibited a bit.

  13.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronalyn View Post
    why rift moderators or stuff , does not respont in this thread? may they shy cause they lie hard to us?
    Pretty sure I've responded multiple times in this very thread. Now I've personally responded to you.

    Please note previous responses.

    ~Daglar

  14.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    However, how can we test the cash shop stuff if we can't even buy it? Is there not a PTS vendor that gives credits?
    You won't be able to test credit purchases until we have a bit of deeper integration done. When we do those tests, it will be done with real purchased credits - and you will be reimbursed in credits plus bonus credits after the conversion goes live.

    PTS is the same credits pool as live.

    ~Daglar

  15.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Changes on PTS

    1. Token vial does not apply to Frozen Eclipse Stones
    2. Venerated rep essences cannot be purchased with credits
    Thanks for posting the update. I didn't do it, because I'm getting tired of being called a liar.

    ~Daglar

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