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Thread: New Level 50 PvP Gear

  1. #1
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    Default New Level 50 PvP Gear

    I am sure this has been discussed ad infinitum, but I think its important enough to bring up again. Please, Trion, rethink the quality of the new level 50 PvP gear. Equivalent gear should have an equivalent difficulty to obtain.

    Think first about how PvE raiders must obtain their gear -- They get to go into a dungeon, mostly 3 times a week while progressing, wipe incessantly, kill the minor bosses for some loot upgrades and work their way forward. In new content, this process requires 20 people working together for months. There is massive turnover amongst the guilds, so new people need to be reeducated all the time. This is one reason why many ID guilds are still farming the upper floor of HK nearly a year after it was released.

    Contrast this to PvP, and especially warfronts. You don't have to start fresh everytime new content is released, you just have to grind the new levels. You get daily quests for prestige and favor, half the week there is a warfront that is double exp and prestige, there are no daily or weekly lockouts, and there are innumerable potions/vials that increase prestige/favor/exp.

    The new weapons/armor are very much ID quality, and not only ID quality, but in an area of ID that only a handful of guilds have made it to. I believe on Faeblight guardian side, there are 1 or 2 at the most. This is months after ID has released. These teams have put in a lot of time and effort to progress, with little rewards.

    On the other hand, in a warfront you dont even have to fight if you dont want to. I know of several people that afk'd there way to 40. With all of the bonuses to favor and prestige, there will be many level 50 pvp'ers after a week with the newest weapons. Also this will be done solo, where the "raiders" require a full raid to progress at all.

    Also, by adding hit to these weapons you have taken away any detriment they used to have for being used in PvE. HK was bad enough requiring PvE'ers to grind PvP gear to become effective, but this is going to be far worse. I didnt see that you were adding valor and vengeance to PvE weapons. So you are removing the detriment to one set of gear but not the other.

    Currently, PvP gear is well balanced. Because of the ease to obtain these items, they should be set at current content - 1, in this case HK. And thats where it is, most of the weapons are upper floor HK drops, A place where raiders are still farming for upgrades to make their ID raids successful.

    Please either rethink the quality of these level 50 upgrades or make them extremely difficult to obtain. They should not be equivalent to gear from current PvE content that only a handful of guilds have a chance of obtaining. Think in terms of total man hours required to clear current content and regear a whole raid and make that # of hours what is required for this new PvP gear to be obtained. Also, with the daily gathering PvP quests flagging you for PvP (even on PvE) servers, you are forcing PvP on people. I was on Sunrest until the end, and its not fun to be outnumbered by defiants 6-1 (easily) and try to accomplish anything. You are just opening the door for griefers, etc.

    Please do not trivialize the accomplishments of the PvE populace.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Where to start...

    1. you can obtain ID gear by doing weekly and daily quests, same as PVP. You can easily get a full set if ID armor and never set foot in a raid.
    2. You "wipe" or die in PVP as much as or more then PVE
    3. It takes less time to obtain PvE gear then PVP of similar quality. Try farming 280,000 favor to go from tier 1, 2, 3 then 4 PVP gear and let me know how long that takes. You can kill one boss and get two or three drops in PVE.
    4. PVP is not equivalent to PVE, I've never seen orange quality gear in PVP. If you're comparing purple, see statement 1 about never having to raid.
    5. Neither is "more difficult", they're both rediculously easy. PVE you play the mechanic the same way every time and gear trivializes the encounters. PVP you play the same unskilled players the same way every time and gear trivializes it. Once and a whole you get a good fight and it's more challenging.
    6. Both raids and PVP are 20 people, I assume you feel there is a difference because it's usually the same people in raids? All the easier in my opinion. Try raiding ID out of a queue like PVP, see how frustrating PVP can be
    7. Who ever said PVE was supposed to be the end all be all.

    I don't know why youre advocating for ruining PVP people's fun, but it sounds rather selfish. If you don't like PVP, don't do it. For those of us who do both, leave it alone.

    Side note, PVP gear is generally better anyways because of the END on it. I can easily hit 9k or higher hit points mixing and matching raid and PVP gear. Makes it worth while.

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    I skimmed through it looking for anything other than conjecture.

    There was none.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 06-19-2012 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    Where to start...

    1. you can obtain ID gear by doing weekly and daily quests, same as PVP. You can easily get a full set if ID armor and never set foot in a raid.
    Other than through PvP, tell me where I can get a 64.8 dps bow/rifle without setting foot in a raid. Oh wait, you can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    2. You "wipe" or die in PVP as much as or more then PVE
    Maybe, but that because of the broken PvP sytem, which is basically just a bind point zerg rush with no penalty for dying. Also, in a PvP Warfront, the actions of one person will not cause the whole team to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    3. It takes less time to obtain PvE gear then PVP of similar quality. Try farming 280,000 favor to go from tier 1, 2, 3 then 4 PVP gear and let me know how long that takes. You can kill one boss and get two or three drops in PVE.
    Again, with the amount of free favor/prestige trion gives you through vials, bonuses, quests, etc. Its not really that hard, and you dont even need to particiapte. I have 2 character rank 36+ and another rank 30=, so I am well aware of the time required. As far as the raiding goes, sure, but dont compare it to HK, compare it to ID -- and tell me how far a pug raid gets. Even if they managed to down warboss, only 1 in 7 will get any loot at all, and its noot that great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    4. PVP is not equivalent to PVE, I've never seen orange quality gear in PVP. If you're comparing purple, see statement 1 about never having to raid.
    I am comparing overall stats, without regard to color. And for weapons in particular, you will not see those outside of the raid instance. See comment about bows/rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    5. Neither is "more difficult", they're both rediculously easy. PVE you play the mechanic the same way every time and gear trivializes the encounters. PVP you play the same unskilled players the same way every time and gear trivializes it. Once and a whole you get a good fight and it's more challenging.
    Well, if PvE is soo easy, why are there less than a handfull of hardcore guilds that have killed all the bosses in ID 2 months after release. And of those that have, you can be damn sure they had a very busy raid schedule and on a lot of nights got nothing. And of those guilds, theyve killed Maelforge what? Once? twice maybe? So maybe 5 people in their raid have drops?

    Compared to PvP warfronts, where you get matched up with character from your server group, dont need to contribute, and always get something. And we wont even talk about PvP imbalances as far as classes go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    6. Both raids and PVP are 20 people, I assume you feel there is a difference because it's usually the same people in raids? All the easier in my opinion. Try raiding ID out of a queue like PVP, see how frustrating PVP can be
    It is different, in ID, you need well geared people from the server you are actually on. For PvP, the pool is the whole server group, and gear doesn't come into play to get in. As far as raiding ID out of a Queue, you make my point for me. It just isnt going to happen, whereas in PvP it happens thousands of times every day.

    Maybe when there are PvP bosses you have to kill with 15 million Hps, where you have to avoind waves, deals with 30 adds, etc, then you will have a point -- but until then, the difficulty isnt even close.

    Lets talk a little about man hours .... its been 2 months since id released, and guilds are just now starting to kill maelforge. Lets say they average 15 hours a week of raiding (which for those guilds will be very low) and you end up with 8 weeks x 20 people x 15 hours = 2400 man hours. And thats just to kill the main boss once or twice, thats not to outfit the whole raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortify View Post
    7. Who ever said PVE was supposed to be the end all be all.

    I don't know why youre advocating for ruining PVP people's fun, but it sounds rather selfish. If you don't like PVP, don't do it. For those of us who do both, leave it alone.

    Side note, PVP gear is generally better anyways because of the END on it. I can easily hit 9k or higher hit points mixing and matching raid and PVP gear. Makes it worth while.
    Im not advocating that at all, just that the gear should have an equivalent difficulty to obtain. Many raiders, myself included also PvP -- and with PvP gear so easy to obtain i think it trivializes PvE. Make them equally difficult. Make it so its not worthwhile to use PvE gear in PvP or PvP gear in PvE. As it currently stands, PvE players need to grind both to be effective, whereas as PvP players only need to PvP.

  5. #5
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    I was unaware it was concerning that 3 out of 22 of the slots from pvp gear was *close* to the ID weapons. By close I mean r50 weapons are worse than epics in ID for pve and the relics are indisputably better for pve and actually provide even higher dmage output in pvp scenarios. So, that is 3/22 slots that come in 3rd place pretty much in the top dog scene. The other 19/22 slots are indisputably the best for pve. Also the fact that r50 weapons will only give you 132 hit (thanks to people who have no idea of game concept), means you need pve gear to pve. If you can raid ID, you have a lot more hit from other sources and it is far superior than pvp gear in many cases. If you are raiding ID and you want to go 50 ranks out of your way to use a weapon that you will replace with the first weapon drop you get, that is a personal problem.

    PvE essences and source engines > PvP ones for pve.

    PvE armor > PvP armor for pve, especially with raid set bonuses being far superior

    PvE jewelry > PvP jewelry for pve.

    PvE synergy crystals > PvP ones for PvE

    This is mostly true even after you have required hit and want to go cherry picking particular items you can manage to shimmy in while maintaining the high +hit requirement.

    Now...

    PvE essences mostly > PvP essences for PvP

    PvP armor overall is better for PvP and with vengeance included isn't far behind performance wise. They are sort of lateral in pvp. You *can* pvp without some valor per circumstance. You can't PvE with less than required hit and call yourself less than garbage.

    PvE weapons at the relic level > pvp weapons in pvp settings if you give up the sub ~150 valor. For PvP you are better off using the r50 weapons over ID epics but the ID epics will put out the same fight the r50 weapons do if the opponent survives with them.

    Jewelry is sort of like armor for the most part imo.

    PvE synergy crystals >> PvP synergy crystals. The only drawback is how much valor you lose. But pure effect wise some are quite superior in pvp. This just shows how much wearing pve armor/synergy crystals blows pvp gear out of the water for pve effectiveness. Essences are a given. Jewelry you want pve. So then we wind up back with weapons, to which I already went over - they are easy to get on you *own* sure. But they are also third best and if you are in ID you will get better epics than the r50 weapons. When you get the relic you will trash your pvp weapon for pvp and pve tbh.

    You don't understand the itemization well. You couldn't be more wrong about the assessment and this is why. The fact is PvP weapons should still be raised to 140 - 150 hit. But that is another lengthy post that basically ends in saying "you know, there is a resourceful auction house in this game too."
    New round up of some high rank matches
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    Other than through PvP, tell me where I can get a 64.8 dps bow/rifle without setting foot in a raid. Oh wait, you can't.


    Maybe, but that because of the broken PvP sytem, which is basically just a bind point zerg rush with no penalty for dying. Also, in a PvP Warfront, the actions of one person will not cause the whole team to die.


    Again, with the amount of free favor/prestige trion gives you through vials, bonuses, quests, etc. Its not really that hard, and you dont even need to particiapte.



    I am comparing overall stats, without regard to color. And for weapons in particular, you will not see those outside of the raid instance. See comment about bows/rifles.



    Well, if PvE is soo easy, why are there less than a handfull of hardcore guilds that have killed all the bosses in ID 2 months after release.


    Compared to PvP warfronts, where you get matched up with character from your server group, dont need to contribute, and always get something. And we wont even talk about PvP imbalances as far as classes go.



    It is different, in ID, you need well geared people from the server you are actually on. For PvP, the pool is the whole server group, and gear doesn't come into play to get in. As far as raiding ID out of a Queue, you make my point for me. It just isnt going to happen, whereas in PvP it happens thousands of times every day.

    Maybe when there are PvP bosses you have to kill with 15 million Hps, where you have to avoind waves, deals with 30 adds, etc, then you will have a point -- but until then, the difficulty isnt even close.



    Im not advocating that at all, just that the gear should have an equivalent difficulty to obtain. Many raiders, myself included also PvP -- and with PvP gear so easy to obtain i think it trivializes PvE. Make them equally difficult. Make it so its not worthwhile to use PvE gear in PvP or PvP gear in PvE. As it currently stands, PvE players need to grind both to be effective, whereas as PvP players only need to PvP.
    1) IMO, we should be able to buy weapons, trinkets, jewelry, etc with our marks, it just being armor is rather silly

    2) ZOMG 10 gold per death is suuch a gruesome penalty, how can you handle it~?!

    3) XP pots are the PVE equivalent

    4) If you're simply gonna ignore that orange = almost always better well...

    5) Why aren't everyone in ID? Several reasons, most don't care at all about raiding. Others are opposed to being screamed at. (I for one get off on it)

    6) While its true you're always progressing in PVP, its NOT true you always get something for your progress.

    7) What does it matter where the people come from? Also, if Trion so chose, we could have LFR, and I hope they do for at least the weeklies.

    8) They did add bosses in Conquest if you didn't know. Of course they can be solo'd currently, but I'm fairly certain this is just for the purposes of testing.

    9) How can inferior gear trivialize anything?

    The concept of PVP gear is STUPID. If you like to raid, get your gear that way, if you like to PVP, you should be able to get just as good gear from there, etc etc etc...

  7. #7
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    This was a problem when HK was released. PvPers were able to get several pieces of HK level armor by ranking up, maybe a helm and gloves for the hit/focus, even with the introduction of synergy crystals it took a long time to get the 4 pieces of mark gear and PvP pieces were a lot better for filling in the slots you didn't have compared to T1 raid gear. This meant PvEers had to progress in mostly T1 raid level gear but PvPers were able to progress in gear that was already HK level giving them a huge advantage. They were even able to get HK level weapons right from the beginning and still meet the hit/focus requirements by just putting on a couple of runes, while everyone else had to spend months killing bosses and hoping for a drop and hoping someone else didn't want it.

    Of course as guilds progressed this advantage disappeared, with enough time people were able to get HK level gear through PvE alone and the balance was restored, with maybe 1 or 2 pieces of PvP gear being BiS by a negligible amount.

    Then guilds stated killing Akylios and the roles were reversed, Akylios relics are BiS for PvP in most cases, there are even a couple of ranged builds that can drop valor to use a 4 piece HK bonus to deal more damage in PvP. This has been going on for 6-8 months now and despite all the changes Trion made the problem still exists and is still bad.

    The problem is pretty clear, when a new tier of PvE comes out, PvP gives too big an advantage in PvE. Then when the content becomes on farm PvE gear gives too big an advantage in PvP.

    Now history will repeat itself. PvPers will be able to get ID level weapons and armor in a week of work, while PvEers will have to spend months raiding til everyone in the guild had their turn for the drops and get on the same level as PvPers, and then it will flip around again and PvE gear will be best for PvP. This time it will be even worse because the weapons from PvP will have hit on them giving them even a bigger advantage in PvE.

    The solution seems fairly simple to me as well, all they have to do is make PvP gear less powerful in PvE, and make PvE gear less powerful in PvP. This way the proportionate advantages to both sides will be gone, the game will be cleaned up and much more enjoyable.

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    For the love of god.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cammyle View Post
    This was a problem when HK was released. PvPers were able to get several pieces of HK level armor by ranking up, maybe a helm and gloves for the hit/focus, even with the introduction of synergy crystals it took a long time to get the 4 pieces of mark gear and PvP pieces were a lot better for filling in the slots you didn't have compared to T1 raid gear. This meant PvEers had to progress in mostly T1 raid level gear but PvPers were able to progress in gear that was already HK level giving them a huge advantage. They were even able to get HK level weapons right from the beginning and still meet the hit/focus requirements by just putting on a couple of runes, while everyone else had to spend months killing bosses and hoping for a drop and hoping someone else didn't want it.

    Of course as guilds progressed this advantage disappeared, with enough time people were able to get HK level gear through PvE alone and the balance was restored, with maybe 1 or 2 pieces of PvP gear being BiS by a negligible amount.

    Then guilds stated killing Akylios and the roles were reversed, Akylios relics are BiS for PvP in most cases, there are even a couple of ranged builds that can drop valor to use a 4 piece HK bonus to deal more damage in PvP. This has been going on for 6-8 months now and despite all the changes Trion made the problem still exists and is still bad.

    The problem is pretty clear, when a new tier of PvE comes out, PvP gives too big an advantage in PvE. Then when the content becomes on farm PvE gear gives too big an advantage in PvP.

    Now history will repeat itself. PvPers will be able to get ID level weapons and armor in a week of work, while PvEers will have to spend months raiding til everyone in the guild had their turn for the drops and get on the same level as PvPers, and then it will flip around again and PvE gear will be best for PvP. This time it will be even worse because the weapons from PvP will have hit on them giving them even a bigger advantage in PvE.

    The solution seems fairly simple to me as well, all they have to do is make PvP gear less powerful in PvE, and make PvE gear less powerful in PvP. This way the proportionate advantages to both sides will be gone, the game will be cleaned up and much more enjoyable.
    except that R50 gear will be horribad for ID since the base stats suck on pvp gear. Trion fixed the problem of pvp gear being in raids by nerfing the base stats and subtracting AP and putting it into vengeance (Which doesn't scale like AP does so is a dps loss in pve and pvp). Now pvp gear core stats are far lower and are on a lateral progression compared to Raid gear, whos core stats keep increasing and soon will simply cut through valor like it didn't exist.

    Valor and HP can only get you so far, but once the stats on raid gear get so high, valor and hp won't matter. Let me pull up the relic two hander for ID, granted it is not farmable, yet, but it will give you an idea of what it will be like when it hits pvp, and it will and one day it will be farmable.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HannonHellbringer View Post
    lol I sure would rather have that than r50 weapon. Even that proc is ridiculous.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 06-19-2012 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    lol I sure would rather have that than r50 weapon. Even that proc is ridiculous.
    it looks sexy as hell to, I've actually considered going back to raiding for it. People say raiding is hard its just time consuming like anything else in MMOs eventually people will get it down especially when the raid gets nerfed.

    I mean how are pvp weapons and gear supposed to compete with that?? the str is in the triple digits now and the proc!!!!!! OMG!!!!

    I will say, i'm REALLY jealous, I just want gear like that that pvpers can be proud of, that we can have people be in awe of that is earned through challenging and rough pvp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HannonHellbringer View Post
    except that R50 gear will be horribad for ID since the base stats suck on pvp gear. Trion fixed the problem of pvp gear being in raids by nerfing the base stats and subtracting AP and putting it into vengeance (Which doesn't scale like AP does so is a dps loss in pve and pvp). Now pvp gear core stats are far lower and are on a lateral progression compared to Raid gear, whos core stats keep increasing and soon will simply cut through valor like it didn't exist.

    Valor and HP can only get you so far, but once the stats on raid gear get so high, valor and hp won't matter. Let me pull up the relic two hander for ID, granted it is not farmable, yet, but it will give you an idea of what it will be like when it hits pvp, and it will and one day it will be farmable.

    Do you even know what progression means? Or did you only read the first two lines of my post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    For the love of god.
    If I could like this 1000000000000000 times I would. We really needed yet another topic on this subject >.>
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    Quote Originally Posted by HannonHellbringer View Post
    iI've actually considered going back to raiding for it.
    What happened to addiction? Don't they get free gear and invited to Trion house parties by now?
    Last edited by spaceboots; 06-19-2012 at 12:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cammyle View Post
    Do you even know what progression means? Or did you only read the first two lines of my post?
    I've been in rift a minute or two to know what progression means. I'm also drunk as hell, nothing new, and probably read your post wrong. My post still holds truth and is the reason why there are so many problems. Players should not be able to play one form of content and have BiS gear for every content, its bad design. PvP needs relic gear and more challenging ways to earn it.

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