Mentoring Feature Feedback

[Maeloda]

Oh I'm almost 100% sure you are wrong on that last one. Since one of the biggest complaints I have heard from newbies is that they can never find anyone to run dungeons with them. One only assumes Trion knows this as well. I think people are forgetting that though this is called mentoring I believe strongly this is also designed to compete with GW2's sidekick system which of course rewards you proportionally to whatever content you are doing.

Also leaving 50's aside for the moment what about a player who wants to stay out of one particular zone. You can mentor down to stay in Gloamwood if you love that zone and hate Scarlet Gorge (I do). So they should be penalized for that? Have to think about these things from all angles.

GW2 being a Lv 80 and going to a Lv 10 zone means that the content will be relevant - NOT that it will be comparable for players. The karma will be lower. The gold will be lower. etc.

All it means is that you won't steamroll things, and that you still will get karma/gold/exp that will help you out - not that you'll be getting the same rewards as on-level content.

So its more like:
A: I need a tank for ROTF.... anyone there?
B: I'm level 50 but I have some time, sure.
<B does ROTF and gets some Lv 50 experience instead of 0 exp (due to greyed mobs) and also gets a few plaques which he can also exchange for gear or experience items etc>

Not like:
A: I'm Level 50 and don't want to do experts. Let's do normal ROTF!
B: I'm Level 50 as well! Screw experts! Screw raid content! ROTF gives GMOA and we can just grind ROTF over and over!
C: Can I join too? Doing these dungeons as a mentor is 100x easier and faster than the raids and expert dungeons anyway.


Trion still wants a gear and level based system. They just want to loosen the reins. So they give mentoring.
Just as Trion still wants a typical questing system along with specific dynamic events. They just want to loosen the reins. So they give Instant Adventure for 'on the fly' questing as a dynamic event of our own.


This is not GW2. This is not WoW. This is Rift, which tends to mix stuff up from previous games, together into a working model (hopefully).

[Khelendross]

GW2 being a Lv 80 and going to a Lv 10 zone means that the content will be relevant - NOT that it will be comparable for players. The karma will be lower. The gold will be lower. etc.

All it means is that you won't steamroll things, and that you still will get karma/gold/exp that will help you out - not that you'll be getting the same rewards as on-level content.

So its more like:
A: I need a tank for ROTF.... anyone there?
B: I'm level 50 but I have some time, sure.
<B does ROTF and gets some Lv 50 experience instead of 0 exp (due to greyed mobs) and also gets a few plaques which he can also exchange for gear or experience items etc>

Not like:
A: I'm Level 50 and don't want to do experts. Let's do normal ROTF!
B: I'm Level 50 as well! Screw experts! Screw raid content! ROTF gives GMOA and we can just grind ROTF over and over!
C: Can I join too? Doing these dungeons as a mentor is 100x easier and faster than the raids and expert dungeons anyway.


Trion still wants a gear and level based system. They just want to loosen the reins. So they give mentoring.
Just as Trion still wants a typical questing system along with specific dynamic events. They just want to loosen the reins. So they give Instant Adventure for 'on the fly' questing as a dynamic event of our own.


This is not GW2. This is not WoW. This is Rift, which tends to mix stuff up from previous games, together into a working model (hopefully).

Plaques are useless to everyone though. Its pretty much gotta be GMOA's at this point.
Incidentally you left out the relevant point with GW2. Gear drops. You can go to a level 30 zone as a level 50 and get gear for your level. You can also get gear for your level 7 character as a level 80 in WvsW. Now the drop rate is slightly less, as is gold and karma (but not by much from what I've seen but that may be because exp was set much lower in the first BWE).

What I'm getting at is that a GMOA (where you get one per run) is relevant but nowhere near comparable to getting however many you get from an expert now. Is it 7?

[Maeloda]

Plaques are useless to everyone though. Its pretty much gotta be GMOA's at this point.
Incidentally you left out the relevant point with GW2. Gear drops. You can go to a level 30 zone as a level 50 and get gear for your level. You can also get gear for your level 7 character as a level 80 in WvsW. Now the drop rate is slightly less, as is gold and karma (but not by much from what I've seen but that may be because exp was set much lower in the first BWE).

What I'm getting at is that a GMOA (where you get one per run) is relevant but nowhere near comparable to getting however many you get from an expert now. Is it 7?

One GMOA for a random lowered-level dungeon is actually fine by me. I was more talking about doing a specific run and killing a boss.

I'd make it (for a random dungeon one mentoring) a *choice* of:
-3 Plaques (on top of generally 1 Plaque per boss)
-2 Marks of Ascension
-1 Greater Mark of Ascension
(no Infernal Marks for now)

I'm all about rewards TYPES to scale - just not the QUANTITY of them. I'm totally ok with one GMOA per mentored random dungeon run reward.

It's pretty clear they'll change *something* - as the devs during the test seem (again, seem) to indicate that dungeon rewards will have a look over if they have time, along with zone event rewards. However, I think the initial implementation of mentoring is at least more focused on getting the experience points scaling properly, the stats to scale properly, and to offer ISS properly for mentored IAs in Freemarch and Silverwood. Everything else is 'when they can do it, hopefully for 1.9'.

[Malignos]

I liked being able to change my level easily. I didn't like the healing necessary after reverting back.

[Feine]

So its more like:
A: I need a tank for ROTF.... anyone there?
B: I'm level 50 but I have some time, sure.
<B does ROTF and gets some Lv 50 experience instead of 0 exp (due to greyed mobs) and also gets a few plaques which he can also exchange for gear or experience items etc>

Not like:
A: I'm Level 50 and don't want to do experts. Let's do normal ROTF!
B: I'm Level 50 as well! Screw experts! Screw raid content! ROTF gives GMOA and we can just grind ROTF over and over!
C: Can I join too? Doing these dungeons as a mentor is 100x easier and faster than the raids and expert dungeons anyway.

I'm not advocating your second scenario. Of course the rewards should be less than expert dungeons, but it should be less because it's on normal difficulty level instead of expert, not because it's low level.

The scenario should be something like this, in my opinion:

A: I'm a new player and just got to the level required for my first dungeon. Oh hey look, this game has a LFD tool to help me find a group. I'll press the "queue for RotF" button and wait for a group.

B: I'm a level 50 player and have finished my expert dungeon grind for the week... how can I get a few more marks now before the weekly reset? Oh, I know, you can get a few marks per week from queuing for low level dungeons. I'll press the "random mentored dungeon" button and wait for a group.



Edit: Having seen your most recent post, I think we're on the same page. And yes, I doubt that mentored dungeon rewards would make it into 1.9. But it's something they should strongly consider for the future, for the sake of player A above.

[Feine]

I liked being able to change my level easily. I didn't like the healing necessary after reverting back.

Agreed; this is what I meant by setting and clearing your mentor level should retain your current health and mana proportionally:

If, at level 50, I am at 50% health (2744 HP for me) and I mentor down to level 10, I should remain at 50% health (295 HP). If I then, at level 10, heal myself to full so that I am at 100% HP, and clear my mentor level, I should remain at 100% HP when I return to level 50.

[tristinshandy]

All this qq about having to heal. Its not hard to drink a mana/health drink for 10 secs. :P

[fayeran]

I read what you wrote and I agree that any kind of mark is to much. In my opinion it should be a reward but not a big one. I think that not everyone will do mentoring in dungeon and that's the aim. The reward must not be so big that people who aren't interested in helping low level player will do it. However it should be big enough to make people who could hesitate about it do it. it should be big enough that you will help other people not only your friend. Why ? because I think that one of the probleme low level are is that they don't necessary know people who are playing and so they have to wait long time to enter in a dungeon.
I am thinking of it as a feature which will make some level 50 to queu for a random normal dungeon in order to help random player. not necessary people they know.

I think that a reward like the dayly IA or chronicle quest should be enough and (i don't know if it's the case now) it shouldn't use one of your expert bonus. Again the aim isn't that every one do this every day that why I think it shouldn't be counter or any kind of mark as reward.

To conclude i thing that the reward shouldn't be to big or it would attract people who don't care about helping other but it should be to low either or it wouldn't solve the long queu in dungeon.


Yes the healing stuff isn't a big problem but if solve it wont anoy people


Ps: the 42 stuff is 5+25+12 = 42 (the date was 05/25/12) and 42 is the answer ;)

[Kadeth]

All this qq about having to heal. Its not hard to drink a mana/health drink for 10 secs. :P

1. Potting is bad, it's for emergency use only in my book. Excessive potting = lazy player, lack of skill and/or bad build, or it's for going solo on an elite.

2. Pots that would actually do the job are a bit costly - no reason we should have to blow the gold just because we mentored.

[Misun]

All this qq about having to heal. Its not hard to drink a mana/health drink for 10 secs. :P

What if it's a pvp server and some level 50 is ganking lowbies, while a level 50 is mentoring a friend?

If you were the person doing the mentoring, wouldn't you want to be at full health when you ended the mentoring, so you could deal with the ganker? I know I would.

[Khelendross]

I read what you wrote and I agree that any kind of mark is to much. In my opinion it should be a reward but not a big one. I think that not everyone will do mentoring in dungeon and that's the aim. The reward must not be so big that people who aren't interested in helping low level player will do it. However it should be big enough to make people who could hesitate about it do it. it should be big enough that you will help other people not only your friend. Why ? because I think that one of the probleme low level are is that they don't necessary know people who are playing and so they have to wait long time to enter in a dungeon.
I am thinking of it as a feature which will make some level 50 to queu for a random normal dungeon in order to help random player. not necessary people they know.

I think that a reward like the dayly IA or chronicle quest should be enough and (i don't know if it's the case now) it shouldn't use one of your expert bonus. Again the aim isn't that every one do this every day that why I think it shouldn't be counter or any kind of mark as reward.

To conclude i thing that the reward shouldn't be to big or it would attract people who don't care about helping other but it should be to low either or it wouldn't solve the long queu in dungeon.


Yes the healing stuff isn't a big problem but if solve it wont anoy people


Ps: the 42 stuff is 5+25+12 = 42 (the date was 05/25/12) and 42 is the answer ;)

Though that is the case, Walsh was undoubtedly referencing the Hitchiker's guide (his signature being a dead give away). Its a double meaning.

[Morvick]

1)Why are you talking about ISS in dungeons?

2)You're still stronger than any other Lv 30 doing normal Foul Cascade. A mentor has outright advantage. Period.

3)low level IA's are not outright meant to bring in Lv 50s - just to be accessible to them via mentoring. The main focus for low level Freemarch content is still .... low level Freemarch players. Mentoring is the perk, not the 'MAJOR FEATURE THAT EVERY LV 50 WILL ENJOY ALL DAY'.

1. Because I don't know what other people consider a good reward that's worth their time, so I'd rather be accused of under-rewarding with an example than have people derail a discussion point with "Wow Morvick, why do you think people need 12 GMOA for completing RotF?"

2. Yes, but neither does the lv 50 NEED Foul Cascade. Loot? Exp? Story? I hope someone has done Foul Cascade at least once in their gear-career, so you need to entice them back to the dungeon. See below.

3. This is where our philosophies differ greatly, I think.
Mentoring could change the game.
If seeded with the proper compensations and flexibility, "Level 50 Content" could mean "Do anything in all of Telara that your heart desires", instead of "Here are 4 Zones of the current 14 that you can find meaningful content in. Do anything else, and it's a charity."

That starts with good rewards -- for example, the same caliber of rewards that you got as a Questing character (doesn't have to be level 50, could be a 25 Mentored down to 17). It /could/ end up with rare level-50 bosses wandering around each Zone (that only interact with true-level 50's). Who knows?

Rift's goal for this year is to break down barriers that keep people from playing together.
So far, Mentoring promises to be the best attempt at that objective, but IT WOULD FAIL in its design if nobody ever did it because the rewards just weren't worth the charity.
Say what you will about carrots on sticks ruining a community (I mostly agree on that point), but even if you consistently lose in Warfronts all night, you still advance your character -- so why shouldn't people get rewarded (advanced) for choosing to go back to earlier content and help newer players enjoy their time in Rift? Why should that NOT be a viable progression option for someone who isn't Raiding?

It would be nice if everybody helped everyone out of the goodness in their hearts. Problem is, we just don't observe that in a large enough scale.
People need those carrots, otherwise "Wow, a level 50 Mentored down to help our Iron Tombs run!" would be a rare story.

What if it's a pvp server and some level 50 is ganking lowbies, while a level 50 is mentoring a friend?
If you were the person doing the mentoring, wouldn't you want to be at full health when you ended the mentoring, so you could deal with the ganker? I know I would.

Ideal scenario:
Mentored down to level 15, sitting at 90% max health. End Mentoring and return to level 50, health scales up to 90% max health.

[Xehlwan]

I can't express just how much I agree with the people talking about scaling rewards in this thread.

I played EQ2 for years, and I enjoyed the mentoring system. It allowed me to help a friend or guildie in need, and that's great! It did not, however, stop low- and mid-level zones from becoming completely empty as time passed.

The idea of scaling rewards would change things completely. If I could take my lvl50 to Freemarch, be adequately challenged, and receive roughly the same rewards as if I quested in Stillmoor, I would love to do so. More importantly: most players would do the same thing with their favorite zones.

Suddenly, you will find veteran players running all over the world. New players will find veterans in their low-level zones, willing to do the same content they are doing. The entire world will stay populated and alive for years to come.

The only thing that needs be done (and seems to be worked on) is to make mentored content equivalent to un-mentored content. Both in challenge and reward. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be roughly similar. The end result is more fun for everyone!

[Kadeth]

See, I would prefer to stay at 50 and mentor, say I stay at 50, run four level 15's through the Iron Tomb. Okay now give me 1 ISS, in compensation for my efforts. Level bracket 1 content with a 7-20 team = 1 ISS, section 2 with 21-30 = 2 ISS and so on.) Now we're talking, I keep the power of a 50, help the lower level players and get something I can use. They get the XP, including a bonus for having me there, since I am not getting any and, they get the normal rewards you get at that level.

Now say I chose to do the mentoring open world - lead a leveling party and take a group of level 7-10 players through some trolls in Stonefield - fine no reward for me save a few coins but, let the lower levels gain XP off my kills even though I don't because I am still level 50 and this is a total cake walk for me.

Even let me escort them to Ember Isle - let them sit and watch just out of range and ride my XP, share my gold and grey item loot and just give me the rare 50 only items. That works, they get a huge gain in both gold and XP, I get a few items I may want, a little gold and, a good time seeing their reaction to my Telara. And they know what to be ready for as they level up.

Reward me for dungeons I mentor in, let my low level friends ride XP off me in place that won't absolutely terrify them and, let me just be a 50 doing it. Let them see the power, the skill and the full effects of the abilities they can look forward to gaining.

Open world leveling parties in other games is a blast. The low levels get to level faster and the high level leading the show has a ball rounding up all they can of mobs and blasting them on mass. Plus there is time to chat, get to know the new players you are helping and so on. They have you protecting them and, you are all but invincible in the areas you are leveling them - good fun and, it shows the new players what is yet to come if they simply subscribe and keep at it.

[Alreia]

1. Because I don't know what other people consider a good reward that's worth their time, so I'd rather be accused of under-rewarding with an example than have people derail a discussion point with "Wow Morvick, why do you think people need 12 GMOA for completing RotF?"

2. Yes, but neither does the lv 50 NEED Foul Cascade. Loot? Exp? Story? I hope someone has done Foul Cascade at least once in their gear-career, so you need to entice them back to the dungeon. See below.

3. This is where our philosophies differ greatly, I think.
Mentoring could change the game.
If seeded with the proper compensations and flexibility, "Level 50 Content" could mean "Do anything in all of Telara that your heart desires", instead of "Here are 4 Zones of the current 14 that you can find meaningful content in. Do anything else, and it's a charity."

That starts with good rewards -- for example, the same caliber of rewards that you got as a Questing character (doesn't have to be level 50, could be a 25 Mentored down to 17). It /could/ end up with rare level-50 bosses wandering around each Zone (that only interact with true-level 50's). Who knows?

Rift's goal for this year is to break down barriers that keep people from playing together.
So far, Mentoring promises to be the best attempt at that objective, but IT WOULD FAIL in its design if nobody ever did it because the rewards just weren't worth the charity.
Say what you will about carrots on sticks ruining a community (I mostly agree on that point), but even if you consistently lose in Warfronts all night, you still advance your character -- so why shouldn't people get rewarded (advanced) for choosing to go back to earlier content and help newer players enjoy their time in Rift? Why should that NOT be a viable progression option for someone who isn't Raiding?

It would be nice if everybody helped everyone out of the goodness in their hearts. Problem is, we just don't observe that in a large enough scale.
People need those carrots, otherwise "Wow, a level 50 Mentored down to help our Iron Tombs run!" would be a rare story.



Ideal scenario:
Mentored down to level 15, sitting at 90% max health. End Mentoring and return to level 50, health scales up to 90% max health.

I really hope that they take our feedback serious and bring it to the live servers. It's an opportunity to get more people to play this game, experiencing all zones which are at their lvl or below, and with every lvl they pass they get more content which is worth to play.