The Warden Changes and why they are a Good Example of Bad Game Design.

[Xarog]

... you mean your second Warden, right? Because as the changes as they are now, won't effect your Raid if there is only one Warden present.

Except with a casual raiding guild you don't know who's going to show up. You don't know if you're going to have to dps or heal or support or tank. You don't even know if all the people that want to heal will neccessarily be able to play their role properly. Cuz it's a casual guild, remember?

In that case you have a choice : make someone use up 1 of their role slots for a tank-healing spec that works and can stack, or make them take a tank healing spec that can't stack.

"Oh **** guys, we're at sicaron now; better call it a night cuz timmy and jimmy both brought warden."

No thanks.

And, like I said... it kinda seems like Daglar felt this ability was overpowered in PvE as well. Or maybe I'm reading too much into what he said, but y'know. They have made PVP-Only changes before.

I think you are indeed reading too much into what he said. In a raiding situation there are healing mechanics that are far more powerful than SS if stacked. In pvp they just never get used cuz of healing pushback and the high likelyhood that the spell will get interrupted.

[the_real_seebs]

It doesn't change the fact that they are hitting PVE specs for something that has nothing to do with PVE -- which is the crux of my frustration. I don't care if it's lessened, or increased, or fiddled with in the next patch. The basis of the decision to do it this way in the first place is flawed.

You want to fix PVP? Fix PVP.

As for those assuming it's a issue in PVE as well, I very much doubt that; comparing a warden with the raw numbers the -icars can sustainably spit out makes that very clear.

I don't think it does. It's not just numbers, it's the KIND of numbers. HoT are different from non-HoT mechanically in some very big ways. Basically, they've said they have concerns about instants and hots, and that basically means wardens.

I like this one a lot partially because it has no negative effect on a single warden. Pairs, though, can't keep one target double-stacked with everything. Okay, I can live with that.

[Anmila]

It isn't simply Wardens cross healing each other. Its also the /insertclasshere/ with N stacks of HoTs on them giving them a massive hit points buffer that makes them "effectively" untouchable.

Why is this a problem when each side has their chance to have a healer? Its not like Defiants can have heals and Guardians cant. Every single person in the WF benefits from having a healer, not just the healer.

[Shattered]

And, like I said... it kinda seems like Daglar felt this ability was overpowered in PvE as well. Or maybe I'm reading too much into what he said, but y'know. They have made PVP-Only changes before.

In spite of the surely many dozens of posts concerning the PvE aspect, why have we yet to see it addressed?

[the_real_seebs]

Why is this a problem when each side has their chance to have a healer? Its not like Defiants can have heals and Guardians cant. Every single person in the WF benefits from having a healer, not just the healer.

It's a problem because if anyone can be effectively untouchable, it takes away a lot of the fun of the game. It should be possible to kill anyone if a bunch of people really want to.

[nocks]

I think you are indeed reading too much into what he said. In a raiding situation there are healing mechanics that are far more powerful than SS if stacked. In pvp they just never get used cuz of healing pushback and the high likelyhood that the spell will get interrupted.

Well, using my powers of deduction... I'm pretty sure the change is meant to affect PvE as well. I KNOW that they can target abilities to only be changed in PVP and not in PvE, because the famous 1.4.5 hotfix that wrecked Warrior's PVP abilities.

So unless you're saying Trion is just so completely cruel that they wouldn't click the "Only apply this change to PvP" button out of sheer spite against their own playerbase, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that these changes target both PVE and PVP on purpose.

[Daglar]

... you mean your second Warden, right? Because as the changes as they are now, won't effect your Raid if there is only one Warden present.

And, like I said... it kinda seems like Daglar felt this ability was overpowered in PvE as well. Or maybe I'm reading too much into what he said, but y'know. They have made PVP-Only changes before.

It is not overpowered in PVE persay.
However - if we are going to touch stacking as a solution that solution is going to go into both PVP and PVE. Having the rules for how things stack work differently in PVP and PVE would be a very big problem and create many edge cases.

Changing an output value like heal amount == ok to differ between PvP and PVE from my perspective.
Making different stacking rules between the two == to confusing to live.

Again I will point to the fact that I was hoping to avoid nerfing the individual warden "into the ground".

To anyone that says "the tests are pointless everything is set in stone" - I'm going to disagree completely with you on that. We run the tests, we play in them, we see what we need to see. We read the feedback and consider it. Then we make a decision to go forward or not based on our own goals.

Considering feedback != always taking the route suggested.

~Daglar
Lead Game Designer: Rift

[Zyzyx]

Sounds good on paper for a moment but not in reality or practice once you head down the rabbit hole of balancing. You also have to target the problems you are trying to solve.

The issue isnt "every heal" the issue is "instant heals" and "heal over time". Other posts in this thread have touched on the issues and elaborated on why they are issues.

~Daglar

Then reduce "instant heals" and "heal over time" by valor. Problem solved.

I'm a little suspicious about how these cleric nerfs come up shortly after I get my cleric alt to 50.

[nocks]

It is not overpowered in PVE persay.
However - if we are going to touch stacking as a solution that solution is going to go into both PVP and PVE. Having the rules for how things stack work differently in PVP and PVE would be a very big problem and create many edge cases.

Changing an output value like heal amount == ok to differ between PvP and PVE from my perspective.
Making different stacking rules between the two == to confusing to live.

Again I will point to the fact that I was hoping to avoid nerfing the individual warden "into the ground".

To anyone that says "the tests are pointless everything is set in stone" - I'm going to disagree completely with you on that. We run the tests, we play in them, we see what we need to see. We read the feedback and consider it. Then we make a decision to go forward or not based on our own goals.

Considering feedback != always taking the route suggested.

~Daglar
Lead Game Designer: Rift

Interesting. Well, I stand corrected. Why not just lower the values of the HoT's in PVP only, then? I suppose that wouldn't work because you'd have to nerf individual Wardens into the ground for PVP-only, or they would still be stacked.

Still, that might alleviate a lot of the problems that most of the Clerics (PVE) are having here. I think most of the frustration comes from PVE-ers having their raid composition messed up by a change that only addresses a PVP problem.

[Undrsiege]

Then reduce "instant heals" and "heal over time" by valor. Problem solved.

I'm a little suspicious about how these cleric nerfs come up shortly after I get my cleric alt to 50.

You really do not know what you are asking for.... Like I said this will totally kill the bard and chloro..

[Daglar]

Interesting. Well, I stand corrected. Why not just lower the values of the HoT's in PVP only, then? I suppose that wouldn't work because you'd have to nerf individual Wardens into the ground for PVP-only, or they would still be stacked.

Still, that might alleviate a lot of the problems that most of the Clerics (PVE) are having here.

No one is going to be happy with a nerf. I'm going to get no love for being the bearer of bad news and hachet man - but thats part of the job.

But a nerf is coming one way or another.
Which one is not finalized.

~Daglar

[nocks]

No one is going to be happy with a nerf. I'm going to get no love for being the bearer of bad news and hachet man - but thats part of the job.

But a nerf is coming one way or another.
Which one is not finalized.

~Daglar

I still love you, Daglar. Mainly because I don't have a Cleric, but I still got love.

[Zyzyx]

But a nerf is coming one way or another.

~Daglar

So ominous daglar.

[Undrsiege]

I still love you, Daglar. Mainly because I don't have a Cleric, but I still got love.

Do not worry, Daglar will be in your section of the forums soon... LOL

[Daglar]

So ominous daglar.

Now about that rogue healing...

~Daglar


P.S. Just kidding :P