Why do you kill mix warden speccs with this unreasonable change?

[Sternenkind]

There is absolutely no point in bringing a second warden into a raid anymore, its a complete waste of a raid slot.

Plus, the one warden that your raid has should really be a 51 because your tank will probably notice the missing stacked Hots and you need the remaining Hots as strong as possible. Any non 51 warden is a rather useless specc after that patch so this change will kill diversity and lead to one cookie cutter Warden Specc.

We crunched some numbers with the other healing spells, and the numbers say it is not possible to have a warden without his Hot stack. So basicly it says: Drop your warden specc. So thats what I do.

The point is... there is no other spell you can cast as a warden that will make up for your lack of HPS on the main tank due to the other warden maintaining the Hot stack. A warden can not change his rotation and leave out the one spell that will not work anymore and create the same HPS with another spell, BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SPELL EVEN CLOSE TO IT!

If you, as a warden, can not maintain a (maximum healing, so 51 pt) Hot stack on the Maintank, you are USELESS. Its just too much HPS wasted.

For me, I actually had TWO warden speccs. The non 51pt specc is now completely useless in raids and the other one I will probably only play once a month cause we currently have three warden mix speccs in the raid, so i guess some other healer will probably want to play full warden as well.

I do not plan on playing the: "Do you want to play warden today or can I?" game, if my specc is not viable a lot of times, I will drop the specc and learn to play something that actually works.

My question is.. WHY?

If you have a problem in PvP, then FIX THE PROBLEM FOR PVP and dont ruin PvE!

If you think the Hot is too strong, then tune it down for all wardens instead of that stupid change so they can still co-exist.

I mean, why ruin a whole specc for fixing something that is not really a big problem?

[Pett]

So do like everyone else does....

Warriors have had to adapt to changes in the past
Rogues have had to adapt to changes in the past
Mages have had to adapt to changes in the past

Clerics... its your turn.

No-one has had time yet to come up with alternatives, all we have seen is knee-jerk QQ posts. Give it a while, post your concerns in a week or 2, then you might be taken seriously.

[masakari81]

Why are you even using 2 warden's to MT heal? [Edit]. Any combination of warden + sent/puri or chloro + sent/puri is way better. [Edit]

[Sternenkind]

Why are you even using 2 warden's to MT heal?

Hm... lemme think about this.

Maybe because people like to play the warden specc because it is fun to them?

Damn, why should people be able to play a specc they like... ya, thats dumb, you are right.

[Sternenkind]

So do like everyone else does....
Warriors have had to adapt to changes in the past
Rogues have had to adapt to changes in the past
Mages have had to adapt to changes in the past
Clerics... its your turn.

Yeah lets adapt and not play warden anymore.

That makes sense. Totally.

Of course the clerics will adapt, and thats why this change should go to the trashbin NOW.

[masakari81]

Hm... lemme think about this.

Maybe because people like to play the warden specc because it is fun to them?

Damn, why should people be able to play a specc they like... ya, thats dumb, you are right.

Excellent.... and I take it that everyone who plays bard and archon love their respective specs?
Some do, some don't..... you want to raid, you do what's best for the raid or you don't get invited

[Primalthirst]

I think you're responding a little bit harshly to the OP.

If people want to hamper their progress by using non-optimal raid compositions then that's their issue and they need to find a raid who is willing to accept them.

The soul system has always been about flexibility and hybridisation, I'm almost never in favour of changes that limit people's options.

I especially don't like my healers not being able to perform at their best, those guys have my back :P

[Sternenkind]

Excellent.... and I take it that everyone who plays bard and archon love their respective specs? Some do, some don't..... you want to raid, you do what's best for the raid or you don't get invited

I dont know a single player that raids with a specc he hates.
I wouldnt even join a raid group like that if you paid me.

Joining a raid that forces you to play something you dont like is beyond stupid if you still play computer games for fun.

[Morwath]

you want to raid, you do what's best for the raid or you don't get invited

Unless you're raiding with friends for FUN, yeah, most ppl play for FUN.

[Alechiel]

Why could warden stack hots when we , bards, cannot stack motifs and run speed buffs (that would be cool)

[Pett]

Yeah lets adapt and not play warden anymore.

That makes sense. Totally.

Of course the clerics will adapt, and thats why this change should go to the trashbin NOW.

If 2 Archon spec mages are in the same raid what happens?

If 2 Bard spec rogues are in the same raid what happens?

If 2 Tank spec warriors are in the same raid what happens?

Oh yeah, one of them switches because having 2 is not optimal.

If people want to hamper their progress by using non-optimal raid compositions then that's their issue and they need to find a raid who is willing to accept them.

The soul system has always been about flexibility and hybridisation, I'm almost never in favour of changes that limit people's options.

The optimal raid composition is progressive like everything else.

The optimal composition will now probably only include 1 warden spec. If anything this would lead to a greater diversity of specs for clerics making them look at alternate builds rather than 75% of them finding a warden build on the forums and copying it with little or no understanding.

Options are only as limited as for every other class now, except warriors who still have less options than clerics.

[Kolfinna]

If 2 Archon spec mages are in the same raid what happens?

If 2 Bard spec rogues are in the same raid what happens?

If 2 Tank spec warriors are in the same raid what happens?

Oh yeah, one of them switches because having 2 is not optimal.



The optimal raid composition is progressive like everything else.

The optimal composition will now probably only include 1 warden spec. If anything this would lead to a greater diversity of specs for clerics making them look at alternate builds rather than 75% of them finding a warden build on the forums and copying it with little or no understanding.

Options are only as limited as for every other class now, except warriors who still have less options than clerics.

Optimal raid composition? You did NOT go there.

If there are 5 mages in a raid, you have an archon, a chloro, and a few DPS doing whatever spec pulls the best numbers for them.
If there are 5 rogues in a raid, you have a bard, and a few DPS doing whatever spec pulls the best numbers for them.
If there are 5 warriors in a raid, you have as many tank as the fight requires, and have the rest all use the spec that pulls the best numbers for them.
If there are 5 clerics in a raid, they do whatever healing spec they're best at.
Except if that spec has any warden, then you'll want them to pick again. Or if there are enough heals, then they can go DPS... except we're talking about "optimal" raid composition, aren't we? If a cleric is optimal DPS... something's wrong.

An "optimal" raid has room for as few clerics as possible: usually one to heal the tank and one to heal the raid. "Optimal" is not an argument you want to make.

Instead, I propose you think for two seconds about suboptimal raids. What if two healers in a raid group both favor warden? This probably won't happen on Infernal Dawn progression, but you see it all the time if you ever do non-guild things. World events, instant adventures, and, yes, pug raids all seem to have an abundance of warden-based healers. This hurts the ignorant masses much more than it'll help you in you peeveepees.

[mxdiz]

I do agree that something else should of been done besides only allowing one in a raid. Something like a diminishing returns system for multiple hots from different people would of been nice, or maybe in pvp only allow one set of hots would of been nice. But this isn't a game changer.... We just did 10/11 bosses last night without a single warden at all, including Estrode. As much as we all like wardens, they aren't really needed anymore like they used to be. Try changing up your raid composition to take advantage of more off heals to make up for it. We only run 1 pure cleric healer (which is a senticar) on all trash and most bosses. Could I ask your average heal setup? We have a core 5 clerics in our raids and for trash the setup is as follows:
1 cleric Senticar
1 cleric Inqicar
3 cleric Cabicars

Make sure your cabicars go 14 pts into justicar for RM, and have them split the RMs between the tanks. They may not have cleanses but can output some really great numbers.

[Sternenkind]

From the other thread:

They could nerf the HPS of SS and buff another Heal spell to counter it so Wardens have other spell choices.

SS is too strong because the Hot is just healing too much, not because they get stacked.

The warden currently completely relies on an SS stack being on the target, thats just a bad design. I should be able to heal with different means if I choose to.

To explain that some more...

If I don't heal other than refreshing my stack by pressing 1 button every 10 seconds I will create about 400 HPS with my SS stack.

Thats insane!

The Hot stack should be a contributing factor so that a good healer has the stack up, but MAINLY heals with other spells.
Having 5 stacks of SS on a target should not even be a problem in PvP, you should be able to damage through the HPS.. but you can't, cause the HPS is too high!

Just nerf the HPS of SS and scrap that totally stupid idea of yours that will destroy the warden specc.

[Accol]

Just nerf the HPS of SS and scrap that totally stupid idea of yours that will destroy the warden specc.

This would be much worse.^

As others have pointed out there are many onther specs you cannot have more than one of.