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Thread: [BUG] Energy Regen

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angryweasel View Post
    Working as intended.
    Says a warrior...

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckmann View Post
    Serious question, are you for or against warrior power regen buff?
    I don't think it was necessary. But I also have 300 tablets in my bank.

    Warrior power regen buff didn't increase our dps. It was simply an ease-of-use buff. We already were not starved when using fervor + tablets. It was also impossible for us to provide reasonable DPS in environments without fervor/tablets.

    As I understand it, a rogue energy buff would actually increase your dps (stop me here if I'm wrong). This might not be bad to give you a slight bump if the 1.8 warrior changes go through as is. It looks like we're going to get a 200-300 dps bump and will be on par with (or maybe slightly over) current rogues.
    Last edited by Rizaz; 03-02-2012 at 08:58 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Um, retconning is fun and all but... When you don't know what you are talking about it is better to be quite then shout to all that are listening that you are an idiot.

    Here's a clue... warrior power regen change had nothing to do with any dps increases or decreases.



    You do realize that bug fixing the multiplicative issues with warriors had no connection what so ever with the warrior regen changes, right?



    Unlikely considering that so far both warriors and mages are ahead of rogues on PTS.



    You should probably get a clue about what you are talking about before you try to clue in other people.




    no, you are wrong and have no clue what you are talking about. but why have your lack of knowledge get in the way are spouting nonsense!
    You just trolled someone who agreed with you that rogues should rely less on tablets. Wow.

    If everything is balanced and rogues get a dps bump from an ease-of-use buff. Then rogues will also have to eat a similar dps nerf to keep everything in balance. That's all he's saying. And it's completely true.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    I don't think it was necessary. But I also have 300 tablets in my bank.

    Warrior power regen buff didn't increase our dps. It was simply an ease-of-use buff. We already were not starved when using fervor + tablets. It was also impossible for us to provide reasonable DPS in environments without fervor/tablets.

    As I understand it, a rogue energy buff would actually increase your dps (stop me here if I'm wrong). This might not be bad to give you a slight bump if the 1.8 warrior changes go through as is. It looks like we're going to get a 200-300 dps bump and will be on par with (or maybe slightly over) current rogues.
    There is potential that an energy buff would make BS viable with fewer CP Final Blows, and therefore give a DPS buff. This could be fixed by having the Assassin crystal only apply to 5 CP Final Blows, which would actually be a nerf to how the spec is currently played, but allow the ease-of-use buff to go through.

    My preferred solution is a small energy regen buff (up to 25 / sec, not the 27 / sec most people advocate) and give us spec options to have more ease-of-use (see this).

    Overall rogues and warriors are in almost identical positions, with the best DPS specs requiring fervor & tablet to be energy neutral.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    I don't think it was necessary. But I also have 300 tablets in my bank.

    Warrior power regen buff didn't increase our dps. It was simply an ease-of-use buff. We already were not starved when using fervor + tablets. It was also impossible for us to provide reasonable DPS in environments without fervor/tablets.

    As I understand it, a rogue energy buff would actually increase your dps (stop me here if I'm wrong). This might not be bad to give you a slight bump if the 1.8 warrior changes go through as is. It looks like we're going to get a 200-300 dps bump and will be on par with (or maybe slightly over) current rogues.

    And Riaza,
    I do not think all of the Rogues are looking for a DPS increase out of a slight energy boost or change. Just a way to run their top DPS spec with out having to have Bard and Tablet. There are a few ( and seriously only a few ) Raid builds of a Rogue that are energy starved with both Living and Tablet. Bloodstalker IS starved with both Tablet and Bard no matter the situation.
    I would be completely happy being able to run Bloodstalker with Living and Tablet with out being starved in one single full rotation of the build. But it does not happen, and equally does not happen with Bard and Tablet, there is a pause section where you have to regen enough energy to continue.

    I agree, with the changes that are currently up and coming for Warriors in 1.8, it should place you about equal to above a Rogue in terms of DPS vs Bloodstalker. But, you will not have the restraints that Bloodstalker has to be able to push those numbers as well. ( and that is more then Bard, Living, Tablet that I am speaking about, that is position in reference to the target mob that I am speaking about )
    I too have 300+ some Tablets in the bank, IMHO it is part of Raiding, if your top spec requires consumables. I am not a whiner all things need to be fair fair fair !!!!!
    I would just like to not be starved out in a rotation or two even under the best possible conditions.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taleon View Post
    And Riaza,
    There are a few ( and seriously only a few ) Raid builds of a Rogue that are energy starved with both Living and Tablet. Bloodstalker IS starved with both Tablet and Bard no matter the situation.
    I can't think of a single spec other than BS that is so starved with ferv+tab that it would stand to gain dps; and even if any other spec did, it wouldn't matter, because no other spec is pushing competitive dps. This is the real heart of the problem though: BS is our only severely energy starved spec, yet despite being starved it is also our only really competitive dps spec. If, hypothetically speaking, BS were to gain a significant amount of dps due to an energy regen buff (I don't think it would, necessarily), the spec itself would have to be nerfed down to be in line with other callings' ST dps. IF this nerf were not perfectly crafted to only bring BS <in line>, rather than being over-nerfed, rogues would lose their only competitive DPS spec. Unless ID brings about the much-coveted gear level where BD scaling makes it top dog.

  7. #52
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    If you don't need to manage your primary resources what is the point of having that resource in the first place?

    I understand the starvation issue, currently I have 3 50's, all of whom I raid with in some degree or another. The ONLY one I don't have Primary resource problems with is my mage when I'm archon (99.9999...999% of the time). My rogue is limited in DPS by Energy, and then only really when I play Sab for kicks. My Cleric is limited by mana in 4/6 specs. While yes, she does have mane regen abilities, I am still limited in that while recouping mana I'm typically not doing my primary role.

    Mages and their mana are an entirely different beast. We have to manage Charge in several specs, and as Archon I need to keep myself 50+ as often as possible on raid encounters in order to counter certain boss mechanics for their duration.

    With that said as a Mana helper Dps mages and most all cleric specs tend to use mana potions, why should rogues/warriors not be expected to use http://rift.zam.com/en/item/FED2DA95...-Energy-Potion (other than I don't think you can craft em)?

    Perhaps the best solution here is to make those potions craftable, and make an over time version similar to the mana/healing tonics?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by LatsyrcMoy View Post
    If you don't need to manage your primary resources what is the point of having that resource in the first place?

    I understand the starvation issue, currently I have 3 50's, all of whom I raid with in some degree or another. The ONLY one I don't have Primary resource problems with is my mage when I'm archon (99.9999...999% of the time). My rogue is limited in DPS by Energy, and then only really when I play Sab for kicks. My Cleric is limited by mana in 4/6 specs. While yes, she does have mane regen abilities, I am still limited in that while recouping mana I'm typically not doing my primary role.

    Mages and their mana are an entirely different beast. We have to manage Charge in several specs, and as Archon I need to keep myself 50+ as often as possible on raid encounters in order to counter certain boss mechanics for their duration.

    With that said as a Mana helper Dps mages and most all cleric specs tend to use mana potions, why should rogues/warriors not be expected to use http://rift.zam.com/en/item/FED2DA95...-Energy-Potion (other than I don't think you can craft em)?

    Perhaps the best solution here is to make those potions craftable, and make an over time version similar to the mana/healing tonics?
    You ONLY need mana potions right? We need:

    Fervor (where's the blue bar equivalent NEED here?)
    A tablet for our primary resource (where's the increase in mana regen rift consumable needed here?)

    And we still run out of energy. Now if we're JUST talking pots, we have a one time energy pot that is not craftable that we can use.

    How long does that mana pot last you until you're OOM again? If it's close to 2 minutes, well then it's close to chain popping before dry.

    Rogues can burn through a full energy bar in 1 port, 1 40 point energy move, and an off GCD 20 energy move. We'll be left at 23 energy at that point, with every normal move costing 30, and with a few costing 40. With everything popped we'd be left with 27. Every single second (or GCD) for a rogue after that will be starved. Our effective GCD WITH everything popped becomes about 1.2-1.3 seconds.

    ALMOST 1.5. Wow, look at that. Who else has a 1.5 second GCD? Get the problem yet?
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    You just trolled someone who agreed with you that rogues should rely less on tablets. Wow.
    Not trolling when you correct someone elses wrongness.

    If everything is balanced and rogues get a dps bump from an ease-of-use buff. Then rogues will also have to eat a similar dps nerf to keep everything in balance. That's all he's saying. And it's completely true.
    Honestly a spec that relies on ports, relies of positioning, and thus is actually useful on very very few real boss fights should probably be higher DPS. And warrior energy changes were independent of any DPS changes, and I would imagine rogue changes would be as well. If DPS goes up by too much, they can worry about that balance in either a later hotfix or full patch. But the energy regen should be fixed and fixed independently of anything else.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LatsyrcMoy View Post
    With that said as a Mana helper Dps mages and most all cleric specs tend to use mana potions, why should rogues/warriors not be expected to use http://rift.zam.com/en/item/FED2DA95...-Energy-Potion (other than I don't think you can craft em)?
    100 energy vs 10K mana. Small minor difference.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    100 energy vs 10K mana. Small minor difference.
    Apparently our energy pool grows with dex. As does our regen rate.

    You know, similar to int/wis.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    100 energy vs 10K mana. Small minor difference.
    Not all mages rock it with 10k mana.
    Even if they did you'll find that not all specs are mana friendly.
    Those that dip the 13 points for mana regen while critting is very friendly mana wise, but is also severely out DPS'ed by every other spec that doesn't.

    36/30 pyrolock
    28/38 defiliemancer
    36/30 hot water

    Are among the top DPS specs.
    The first two rely on sacrifice life for mana to regen.
    Hot water has no mana regen and can run out fairly quickly.
    The main reason they don't is primarily due to living energy/fervor/GoP which help with mana management.

    Naturally rogues do have it more severe in their energy management, the issue however is that if you do gain a substantial energy regen, your DPS may be curbed back a bit.

    It would also kinda make fervor and living energy pointless too. <_<

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Honestly a spec that relies on ports, relies of positioning, and thus is actually useful on very very few real boss fights should probably be higher DPS. And warrior energy changes were independent of any DPS changes, and I would imagine rogue changes would be as well. If DPS goes up by too much, they can worry about that balance in either a later hotfix or full patch. But the energy regen should be fixed and fixed independently of anything else.
    You don't implement balance changes without first consider simultaneous balance changes going in. No balance change is independent of another balance change. If I'm giving you +2 here, then I have to take -2 there to keep you at 0. Otherwise your balance changes result in imbalances.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by farore View Post
    Dps clerics have infinite mana gains through their abilities.
    Dps mages have the ability to gain large amounts of mana at the cost of a gcd.
    Dps warriors have 0 starvation issues in a raid situation.

    Dps rogues are energy starved while in a raid with Fervor and a tablet.
    Seems fair?
    are you for real?comparing clerics dps with the other 3?

    they need to up just a little bit for rogues,other than that no,it will be op in pvp,like its not enough that riftstalker are op now.
    Last edited by Xnon; 03-02-2012 at 06:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aguni View Post
    Not all mages rock it with 10k mana.
    Even if they did you'll find that not all specs are mana friendly.
    Those that dip the 13 points for mana regen while critting is very friendly mana wise, but is also severely out DPS'ed by every other spec that doesn't.

    36/30 pyrolock
    28/38 defiliemancer
    36/30 hot water

    Are among the top DPS specs.
    The first two rely on sacrifice life for mana to regen.
    Hot water has no mana regen and can run out fairly quickly.
    The main reason they don't is primarily due to living energy/fervor/GoP which help with mana management.

    Naturally rogues do have it more severe in their energy management, the issue however is that if you do gain a substantial energy regen, your DPS may be curbed back a bit.

    It would also kinda make fervor and living energy pointless too. <_<
    No Mage in my raids run out of mana. Top dps specs.

    No rogue can run a top dps spec without a tablet. If mages, clerics, warriors require a similar consumable to the tablet for their top dps spec (which top dps means no energy/mana regen), then I think we're coming close to balance.

    As gear gets better, mana pool gets better. I think regen gets a little better too.

    I could have 100 dex or 8000 dex, my pool neither gets bigger, nor does my energy regen faster. Off the bat that is an imbalance.

    We also have zero options to regen energy in our top dps spec. At the loss of 1 GCD or 10, we have zero options to gain energy back faster via any ability in that spec.

    Cast spells as fast as you can, I gaurantee you I could run out of energy faster than you could ever run out of mana. Yes, our energy flows, but once we get behind, our GCD raises. If rogues are supposed to have that 1 sec GCD as their ace in the hole, just up our GCD to 1.5 seconds, raise our builders to hit as hard as warriors, and up our regen to that of warriors. Lower our cps needed to a max of 3 like warriors and call it a day.

    If not, put u's on similar if not equal footing to the other 3 classes.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

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