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Thread: [BUG] Energy Regen

  1. #31
    Ascendant batou079's Avatar
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    Keep in mind, with an increase to resource regeneration will come the "balance" to your overall DPS to keep rogues in check. Asking for the same power regen as warriors you need to realize came with a price. They nerfed warrior top end dps, because of how high their dps went with the energy regen change.

    Without a natural limitation to your DPS potential, there needs to be adjustments to the skills/mechanics themselves. So they basically changed a bunch of warrior skill mechanics from multiplicative to additive which brought their dps down a bit as well as reducing how much benefit they got from raid buffs/boss buffs. This kept warriors in check so that their dps wouldn't get ridiculously high over everyone else.

    In the same regard, be prepared for such an adjustment if they push rogue power regeneration upwards with a flat buff like warriors. Rogue melee dps for single target is already very powerful despite depending on Tablets, much like warriors pre 1.7 the natural limitation was resource management. You cannot have it both ways, so just prepared. Sadly i still expect a flood of rogue QQ when they buff power regen but nerf overall dps like warriors got. I love my rogue, and yes i get tired of getting power starved in something as simple as MM. But i also know if went with my melee specc i can't expect to be top dps without any sort of limitation whether it be like now, naturally through resource limitations, or via future changes to inherent limitations in the skills.

    One thing i want to be clear on... Fervor + Tablet, lets the rogue just barely maintain a fluid rotation... NOT actually remain completely energy starved. The term energy starved isn't literal and means a player may have to wait 1 extra second every so often to execute the next skill. It does NOT mean that they have to completely stop their dps. Starvation is basically skirting a close line between waiting longer than 1 GCD to cast the next skill on every skill, and having to wait 1 extra second once in a while. There is no, "completely" gimped" argument. No player is suffering with "lowest dps" or some such sillyness. The same stupid QQ argument was made by many warriors, "I'm always energy starved!" Which did NOT mean they couldn't maintain top dps, it meant tehy couldnt maintain top dps without relying on Tablets/Fervor. This is more of a "i am required to farm a relatively rare item" in order to stay competitive dps with everyone else... which is what the real problem was for warriors... and remains for rogues.

    TL; DR?
    i whole-heartedly agree that the same Tablet reliance should NOT be required for rogues either. But take it with a grain of salt, as i said, it will come with various skill "rebalances" to adjust for no resource limitations to rogue DPS builds.

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  2. #32
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    It's all about the IF's
    Clerics can talk about starvation IF they do AoE
    Mages can talk about starvation IF they do AoE
    Warriors can talk about starvation IF they are lying
    Rogues can talk about starvation IF they finish character creation

    Balance.
    Last edited by Gynxz; 03-01-2012 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #33
    Rift Disciple Scrumdiddly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batou079 View Post
    TL; DR?
    i whole-heartedly agree that the same Tablet reliance should NOT be required for rogues either. But take it with a grain of salt, as i said, it will come with various skill "rebalances" to adjust for no resource limitations to rogue DPS builds.
    This. Though realistically speaking, what specs other than Bloodstalker actually reach moments of complete energy starvation with fervor + tablet, i.e. what specs other than BS would actually have a dps gain from a general energy buff? I can't think of anything besides maybe NB, and NB gaining a tiny bit more dps would hardly be an issue.

    Side note: 99% positive that, over the course of a fight, a rogue in a top dps spec without fervor + tablet loses way more GCDs to energy starvation than a mage/cleric does to mana regen abilities/tonics.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Last I checked we're not talking about soloing here, so I don't know why you think that point is relevant.
    It certainly was relevant for warriors.


    I also fail to believe that in all specs, rogues are energy starved even with fervor and tablet. I'm pretty sure you're centering on one build (Bloodstalker or whatever it is rogues call it) and using it as a way to claim that the entire rogue class is gimped when it comes to energy.
    The only rogue build that isn't energy starved is basically 51BD. That is it. Every other rogue build is energy starved.



    And guess what? Some mage builds have a rough time with mana, some cleric builds have a rough time with mana. Just like some rogue builds have a rough time with energy. What you're insinuating (which is utterly false) is that all rogue builds are energy starved no matter what and no other class EVER has to worry about resources.
    Warriors worry? Nope.
    Mages worry? Nope.
    Clerics worry? Nope.
    Rogues worry? Yes, they are constantly energy starved even with full raid buffs, let alone without raid buffs where they are basically continuously starved.

    Which, again, is just not true. Also, don't come and tell me that mages can do 1 GCD and "are basically back to full." You have no idea what you're talking about. Furthermore, you completely fail to grasp that the reason clerics and mages are not heavily hurting for resources in most cases is because their resource pool is designed in such a way that if they reach 0, they're roughly equivalent to being dead. They can't get back another GCD worth of energy in .5-1.0 seconds the way a rogue can, thus the the design of the game encourages them to get back chunks of their pool in bits here and there, so that they never reach 0.
    Fine, buff rogues so that they have 10K+ energy and give them the capability to basically refill the whole entire thing whenever they want, just like mages and clerics.

    Compare rogue resources to warriors if you want, but don't try to lump it in with the other classes - which have an entirely different type of resource management - to bolster your argument, as though rogues are victims of abuse and neglect. Quite frankly, I think you're just mad about seeing grayed out bars.
    Warriors don't have to worry about their primary resource.
    Mages don't have to worry about their primary resource.
    Clerics don't have to worry about their primary resource.

    Rogues DO have to worry about their primary resource.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by batou079 View Post
    Keep in mind, with an increase to resource regeneration will come the "balance" to your overall DPS to keep rogues in check. Asking for the same power regen as warriors you need to realize came with a price. They nerfed warrior top end dps, because of how high their dps went with the energy regen change.
    Um, retconning is fun and all but... When you don't know what you are talking about it is better to be quite then shout to all that are listening that you are an idiot.

    Here's a clue... warrior power regen change had nothing to do with any dps increases or decreases.

    Without a natural limitation to your DPS potential, there needs to be adjustments to the skills/mechanics themselves. So they basically changed a bunch of warrior skill mechanics from multiplicative to additive which brought their dps down a bit as well as reducing how much benefit they got from raid buffs/boss buffs. This kept warriors in check so that their dps wouldn't get ridiculously high over everyone else.
    You do realize that bug fixing the multiplicative issues with warriors had no connection what so ever with the warrior regen changes, right?

    In the same regard, be prepared for such an adjustment if they push rogue power regeneration upwards with a flat buff like warriors.
    Unlikely considering that so far both warriors and mages are ahead of rogues on PTS.

    Rogue melee dps for single target is already very powerful despite depending on Tablets, much like warriors pre 1.7 the natural limitation was resource management. You cannot have it both ways, so just prepared.
    You should probably get a clue about what you are talking about before you try to clue in other people.


    i whole-heartedly agree that the same Tablet reliance should NOT be required for rogues either. But take it with a grain of salt, as i said, it will come with various skill "rebalances" to adjust for no resource limitations to rogue DPS builds.
    no, you are wrong and have no clue what you are talking about. but why have your lack of knowledge get in the way are spouting nonsense!

  6. #36
    Ascendant batou079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrumdiddly View Post
    This. Though realistically speaking, what specs other than Bloodstalker actually reach moments of complete energy starvation with fervor + tablet, i.e. what specs other than BS would actually have a dps gain from a general energy buff? I can't think of anything besides maybe NB, and NB gaining a tiny bit more dps would hardly be an issue.

    Side note: 99% positive that, over the course of a fight, a rogue in a top dps spec without fervor + tablet loses way more GCDs to energy starvation than a mage/cleric does to mana regen abilities/tonics.
    Agreed, and you hit my point dead on. the only real complaint is for raid TOP dps having to rely on tablets.
    My point remains, rogues need to prepare for skill adjustment so we dont get tons of OP dps'ers who no longer have energy limitations. We cannot have it both ways, and warrior balance is testament to this fact.

    They got quite a hefty power regen buff, but the dps mechanic changes limits their DPS from soaring too high.
    If players think they can have it both ways, then they need to stop pretending to care about "balance" as well. But let's be honest, no matter the class... obvious balance changes will be met with incessant QQ no matter what.

    EDIT: oh and i forget to add, any energy regen issues outside of raid DPS is just icing on the cake. This was NEVER the main concern for warrior power regen. Anyone who says other wise is naive.
    Last edited by batou079; 03-01-2012 at 04:06 PM.

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  7. #37
    Telaran innou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Last I checked we're not talking about soloing here, so I don't know why you think that point is relevant. I also fail to believe that in all specs, rogues are energy starved even with fervor and tablet. I'm pretty sure you're centering on one build (Bloodstalker or whatever it is rogues call it) and using it as a way to claim that the entire rogue class is gimped when it comes to energy.

    And guess what? Some mage builds have a rough time with mana, some cleric builds have a rough time with mana. Just like some rogue builds have a rough time with energy. What you're insinuating (which is utterly false) is that all rogue builds are energy starved no matter what and no other class EVER has to worry about resources.

    Which, again, is just not true. Also, don't come and tell me that mages can do 1 GCD and "are basically back to full." You have no idea what you're talking about. Furthermore, you completely fail to grasp that the reason clerics and mages are not heavily hurting for resources in most cases is because their resource pool is designed in such a way that if they reach 0, they're roughly equivalent to being dead. They can't get back another GCD worth of energy in .5-1.0 seconds the way a rogue can, thus the the design of the game encourages them to get back chunks of their pool in bits here and there, so that they never reach 0.

    Compare rogue resources to warriors if you want, but don't try to lump it in with the other classes - which have an entirely different type of resource management - to bolster your argument, as though rogues are victims of abuse and neglect. Quite frankly, I think you're just mad about seeing grayed out bars.
    The only energy related skill, outside of Ferver, rogues have available is Combat Efficiency which requires 15-18 points into the Bladedancer soul. Which returns 1, 2, or 3 energy per combo point when a finisher is used (3 levels, max 15 refunded energy).

    Lets compare that to Clerics and Mages,

    Clerics
    • Cabalist: Vile Power (20pt root)
    • Druid: Fae Hammer (10pt root)
    • Inquisicar: Aggressive Renewal (10pt), Armor of Awakening (32pt root)
    • Justicar: Purpose (12pt root), Commitment (25pt)
    • Shaman: Ageless Ice (14pt root), Endless Winter (15pt)

    Mages
    • Archon: Exhilaration (5pt), Leeching Flames (10pt), Mental Flare (20pt)
    • Chloro: Living Shell (20pt), Empathic Bond (25pt)
    • Dom: Mana Wrench (8pt root)
    • Elem: Channel Elements (32pt root)
    • Necro: Reclaim Power (8pt root), Lich Form (30pt)
    • Pyro: Glyphs of Power (6pt root), Smoldering Powder (8pt root)
    • Warlock: Sac life: mana (6pt root)

    Rogues do have Verse of Joy and Ferver but at that point we're not doing damage, we're barding so in fairness we can ignore Cleric's Commitment since it's a tanking reactive along with the Chloro and Archon souls for Mages. This still leaves Mages and Clerics with at least one method of either reducing mana costs or actively regenerating mana per dps soul (with few exceptions).

    Clerics and Mages have the ability to prevent going out of mana without resorting to consumables; rogues, even when using our one skill in the bd soul, cannot. To be unable to prevent resource starvation doing single target dps even while utilizing all skills and consumables available is a problem unique to the rogue class.
    5/8

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by batou079 View Post
    Agreed, and you hit my point dead on. the only real complaint is for raid TOP dps having to rely on tablets.
    My point remains, rogues need to prepare for skill adjustment so we dont get tons of OP dps'ers who no longer have energy limitations. We cannot have it both ways, and warrior balance is testament to this fact.
    No, it is you trying to retcon you fantasy with reality. The reality is that the energy regen changes for warriors were completely independent of anything else that happened to them. The bug fixes to the hodgepodge of broken multiplicative skills within the warrior souls was completely, entirely, independent of the energy changes.

    EDIT: oh and i forget to add, any energy regen issues outside of raid DPS is just icing on the cake. This was NEVER the main concern for warrior power regen. Anyone who says other wise is naive.
    I suggest you stop retconning and come to reality where DPS outside of fervor/clover was a major reason for the warrior regen buff.

  9. #39
    Ascendant batou079's Avatar
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    My god Durango, so angry. Try debating with the grown ups instead of name calling.

    I didn't say "ZOMG NERF ROGUES!"... did i ? People like you overreact SOOO badly when you get a whiff in the air of just the thought. I said rogues should be prepared for a few skill adjustments to balance out with a energy regen buff in case it happens. It happened to warriors, i am not "retconning"... if you tested the power regen buffs on the PTS when they first appeared you would have a clue, with which you insist i don't have.

    Please calm down, it is an opinion.
    I am saying it COULD happen that way if Trion sees Rogue dps get out of control with Bloodstalker after buffing energy regen. I was using warriors as an example of why it could happen. "DPS outside of fervor/clover was a major reason for the warrior regen buff." Not a major reason, it was part of the reason. The loudest QQ was from Raid DPS'ers that were forced to use Tablets...strangely enough EXACTLY like rogues? zomg.

    Get a clue, i am AGREEING that rogues need a energy regen buff... mainly so they do not have to rely on tablets in raids.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by innou View Post
    The only energy related skill, outside of Ferver, rogues have available is Combat Efficiency which requires 15-18 points into the Bladedancer soul. Which returns 1, 2, or 3 energy per combo point when a finisher is used (3 levels, max 15 refunded energy).

    Lets compare that to Clerics and Mages,

    Clerics
    • Cabalist: Vile Power (20pt root)
    • Druid: Fae Hammer (10pt root)
    • Inquisicar: Aggressive Renewal (10pt), Armor of Awakening (32pt root)
    • Justicar: Purpose (12pt root), Commitment (25pt)
    • Shaman: Ageless Ice (14pt root), Endless Winter (15pt)

    Mages
    • Archon: Exhilaration (5pt), Leeching Flames (10pt), Mental Flare (20pt)
    • Chloro: Living Shell (20pt), Empathic Bond (25pt)
    • Dom: Mana Wrench (8pt root)
    • Elem: Channel Elements (32pt root)
    • Necro: Reclaim Power (8pt root), Lich Form (30pt)
    • Pyro: Glyphs of Power (6pt root), Smoldering Powder (8pt root)
    • Warlock: Sac life: mana (6pt root)

    Rogues do have Verse of Joy and Ferver but at that point we're not doing damage, we're barding so in fairness we can ignore Cleric's Commitment since it's a tanking reactive along with the Chloro and Archon souls for Mages. This still leaves Mages and Clerics with at least one method of either reducing mana costs or actively regenerating mana per dps soul (with few exceptions).

    Clerics and Mages have the ability to prevent going out of mana without resorting to consumables; rogues, even when using our one skill in the bd soul, cannot. To be unable to prevent resource starvation doing single target dps even while utilizing all skills and consumables available is a problem unique to the rogue class.
    Lets clarify this:

    Clerics
    • Cabalist: Vile Power (20pt root) (never taken past 5 points unless you are 51 spec, meaning gimp/no ST damage)
    • Druid: Fae Hammer (10pt root) (no build combo uses this soul, and no-one runs a 51 pointer)
    • Inquisicar: Aggressive Renewal (10pt), Armor of Awakening (32pt root) (the only one you will see in dps specs that arent 51 shaman)
    • Justicar: Purpose (12pt root), Commitment (25pt) (if you have this, your not dpsing)
    • Shaman: Ageless Ice (14pt root) (never used, as only 51 point shamans will have), Endless Winter (15pt (16/17 tree points)) (means you never need a mana skill, but 51 shaman is still worse than 51 inq when you get poor RNG, but better when you don't)

    So, unless your running a horribly RNG shaman (which you shouldn't), your running 51 inquisitor.
    Aggressive renewal is all we really have, anything else is a dps loss. Much like going into blade dancer.
    But, we run Inquisitor because it gives consistent ST damage and has no mana issues.

    AR is a 3 second channel that's interupt-able.

    You regenerate your energy source at what? 15/17/22% a second? We regenerate at (depending on gear level) 0.4% a second? It's a given that we have an actual skill to make up for it.
    A little reading comprehension goes a long way.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by innou View Post
    The only energy related skill, outside of Ferver, rogues have available is Combat Efficiency which requires 15-18 points into the Bladedancer soul. Which returns 1, 2, or 3 energy per combo point when a finisher is used (3 levels, max 15 refunded energy).

    Lets compare that to Clerics and Mages,

    Clerics
    • Cabalist: Vile Power (20pt root)
    • Druid: Fae Hammer (10pt root)
    • Inquisicar: Aggressive Renewal (10pt), Armor of Awakening (32pt root)
    • Justicar: Purpose (12pt root), Commitment (25pt)
    • Shaman: Ageless Ice (14pt root), Endless Winter (15pt)

    Mages
    • Archon: Exhilaration (5pt), Leeching Flames (10pt), Mental Flare (20pt)
    • Chloro: Living Shell (20pt), Empathic Bond (25pt)
    • Dom: Mana Wrench (8pt root)
    • Elem: Channel Elements (32pt root)
    • Necro: Reclaim Power (8pt root), Lich Form (30pt)
    • Pyro: Glyphs of Power (6pt root), Smoldering Powder (8pt root)
    • Warlock: Sac life: mana (6pt root)

    Rogues do have Verse of Joy and Ferver but at that point we're not doing damage, we're barding so in fairness we can ignore Cleric's Commitment since it's a tanking reactive along with the Chloro and Archon souls for Mages. This still leaves Mages and Clerics with at least one method of either reducing mana costs or actively regenerating mana per dps soul (with few exceptions).

    Clerics and Mages have the ability to prevent going out of mana without resorting to consumables; rogues, even when using our one skill in the bd soul, cannot. To be unable to prevent resource starvation doing single target dps even while utilizing all skills and consumables available is a problem unique to the rogue class.
    This goes to show that rogues need power regen talents in their souls like warriors/mages/clerics do. This means that they can spec for more dps but deal with energy issues, or spec for energy regen at a cost of a few dps talent points (like warriors do).

  12. #42
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    People are saying that Rogues DPS will be super high if we get energy buff, but if you take a look at warriors with their total rework of AP scaling on PTS you will see that Rogues most likely remain where they are now if not lower on the TOP DPS board in 1.8


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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angryweasel View Post
    Sounds fair rogues do insane DPS in said spec anyway no need to make that more OP.
    Define insane dps. Ivan show you parses of similar dps on those fights from other callings. Oh and other callings can do it on more fights than that specs allow due to a positional requirement that NO OTHER SOUL in the game requires.

    How's your AE doing in your top dps spec with an interrupt?

    Oh, we don't have AE nor an interrupt.

    How's way of the newb in that spec too? Sounds fair to totally avoid raid mechanics.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerwel View Post
    This goes to show that rogues need power regen talents in their souls like warriors/mages/clerics do. This means that they can spec for more dps but deal with energy issues, or spec for energy regen at a cost of a few dps talent points (like warriors do).
    I'll be more than happy to spec into energy regen if I can do it with just 6 points into a soul like warriors can! Yes, they really only need 1/3 points into their energy regen talent for raiding, even for AoE.
    Dummy Foundry rocks. CQ blows. Energy is meh. MORE ROLE SLOTS! Burma shave.

  15. #45
    RIFT Guide Writer Sebb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PORTERR View Post
    People are saying that Rogues DPS will be super high if we get energy buff, but if you take a look at warriors with their total rework of AP scaling on PTS you will see that Rogues most likely remain where they are now if not lower on the TOP DPS board in 1.8
    Yes great idea. Lets make decisions using a benchmark that changes 2x per week.

    Put energy regen into more souls. Rogues need better energy management tools. Sure. Let's focus on what makes sense for rogues though.
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