Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

[Marikhen]

Firstly I should clarify, my post was aimed in conjunction with Faith in Action as an alteration to it in replacement of the SP/crit conversions to AP/crit.

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Didn't know that, but putting brackets around everything I want excepted from a "feature" that abuses standard English would get annoying fast.

Adding the wisdom to Block / parry and the Intelligence to dodge will make those stats (wis/int) return better mitigation and avoidance than Str/Dex, which is the goal.

How does a 1 to .33/.66/1 conversion from wisdom to block yield more mitigation than a straight up 1:1 wisdom/wtrength conversion when strength and dexterity convert to parry/block and dodge on a 1:1 basis already?

As for their tweaking and balancing, I'm not sure how a direct conversion will benefit better. Strength already grants 1 block if I'm not mistaken: this way, so will Wisdom.

I should have gone into a bit more detail in my previous post, but I didn't think to do it at all.

Tying it in with Faith in Action so that it converts intellect to dexterity and wisdom to strength would negate the need to convert spell power and spell crit to AP and physical crit while also providing avoidance/mitigation that would be available to Shamans and Druids as well as Justicars.

Honestly, the current setup looks like a contrived effort to pad out the Justicar tree while also keeping Shaman/Druid avoidance/mitigation intentionally next to zero unless they sink a significant amount of points into Justicar.

I can understand not wanting to see caster/healer clerics getting Justicar/Shaman/Druid as a ZPS just for the boost to their avoidance, but slotting it in as a 32 point "Improved Faith in Action" type buff that supercedes the original would handle that issue while still making it available to all three melee souls.

[Morvick]

Yes, increased mitigation/resistance does ALLOW for less HP, but is it really necessary to nerf our already lower than everyone else HP?

No, that's no reason to. Perhaps it's because we get sprinkles of self-heals? (but then, so do Reavers and Void Knights, so there goes that theory)

I meant the post to show their theoretical differences. If either tank is told it needs to have less HP than the other, the Mitigation Tank can suffer the insult without overdue complaint. It's the Avoidance Tank that needs to viciously guard every drop of HP it can get it's hands on. The comparative drop in HP from Live justicars and the PTS justicars isn't broken in theory, except for the fact you brought up: our health was too low to begin with, and these new values may not be competitive next to our still-stronger Warrior brethren.

It is, however, a cautious step in the right direction. Starting off slow...


Marikhen: Honestly that idea sounds as good as what we currently have, but my strength isn't in parsing or theorycrafting for balances. It could have an unforeseen consequence that I don't notice. Plus, would a pure-DPS melee warrior (or rogue) have as much avoidance as these proposed changes would then give Shamen and Druids?

[Malark]

I think it's time to stop the talky talky on this one guys.

HP may be down a bit but there's another 5% total mitigation in there and 1:1 stat to avoidance ratio.



Seriously, this is a pretty awesome set of changes coming up.

[aabuster1]

I don't understand the HP nerf. Loosing a considerable chunk with the latest changes. Some say it might pan out in raids but I don't know.

I think I do gain 2% block chance.

I honestly have lost track of where we are on test compared to the other tanks. With that said our lower HP is not warranted unless mitigation wise we are complete equals to warriors and the lower HP is to balance out our heals - if we are not 100% in line with warrior then we need more HP here not a deduction. The warrior also has heals (reaver/paladin/warlord), has raid wide damage reducers, raid wide damage increasers, - the cleric offers the raid some extra heals. All this is in one warrior spec - Reaver/WL/PAL.

The other thing is that if we are *supposed* to be inferior to warriors due to our heals, the problem with that is that mobs in raids hit for large amounts that make our heals worthless in supplementing our mitigation and lower HP. The more mobs hit for the less valuable our heals become... healing percentage vs damage vs the damage a warrior would have taken in the same situation.

A solution I would suggest is allowing overheals on the Jusitcar to charge an overheal shield with a max potential of 2x our current spell power. Their could be multiple ways to implement. One could be a straight 2x our spell power at all times. Another way would be to accumulate charges that hold the shield :You get a heal you get a charge that could contain up to XX% of your spellpower each. For example if each charge held in HP 20% of your spellpower in HP it would take ten heals to fully activate the shield, the charges would fade over time. You could base the shield on convictions as well. This would give us more effective HP while at the same time making us unique.

I believe our heals are better than the warrior but the JUSTICAR heals no where near merit the discrepancy in HP and mitigation (I am unsure where we stand on PTS at the moment) that we have now when taken into consideration with what the average warrior spec has at its disposal.

By no means do I understand the curve involved but upping justicar HP by 1.619 instead of 1.6 gets me back to where I was before the change. I know it doesn't sound like much - but it would be a start for me at least. I wonder what modifier the other clerics here would need to be on par with their live self buffed HP level?

Well, that's just some of my thoughts.

[Myrkel]

You guys are missing one thing. Our mitigation has increased again (from the previous build on the pts), which means our "Effective HP" from mitigation has increased. Listed HP if fully raid buffed will be pretty much the same, though our listed HP won't increase as quickly as other tanks from a gear upgrade.

Still puts us pretty far behind warriors in effective hp.

Seriously Spell Power Scaling.

Like 10% of Sp to endu or like 150%200% sp to HP. Then make censure and DoB good, and you can go back to being afk zibnik.

[Malark]

Physical mitigation: Going from 13% to 36 %

Think about that for a second.

LEAVE IT OMG ! ITS FINE !



With this change, it looks to me like it will be possible to have 'high mitigation builds' with the 3 in Shaman, or it may be possible to drop those 3 points into Shaman and have other builds ? With maybe Druid for endurance ?

[Khuj]

Hp-wise, you're second only Warrior and you always were. My RS, fully HK heared, has about 17.5k self-buffed. A similar geared Cleric has the same HP.

Now, for max mitigation, I'm sitting on 93.6% mitigation on physical, while my cleric friend was sitting @ 92%, with PTS changes. It's not much of a difference on a 4.5k hit on RS. In fact, I believe they should increase your non-physical by 4% more and you should be more in-line with RS, aside from the fact that you can self-heal, albeit minimal.

[Marikhen]

Marikhen: Honestly that idea sounds as good as what we currently have, but my strength isn't in parsing or theorycrafting for balances. It could have an unforeseen consequence that I don't notice. Plus, would a pure-DPS melee warrior (or rogue) have as much avoidance as these proposed changes would then give Shamen and Druids?

So far as I can tell the % chance to parry/block/dodge/deflect/whatever should be identical between all four callings given equal point values in the respective stats. With my rogue 346 parry yields a 5.6% chance to parry while my warrior and cleric see 365/5.91% and 351/5.68% respectively. The numbers are very much in line with one another and close enough to indicate that there is no discrepency.

It's not identical numbers between all three callings so it's not guaranteed, but it indicates that warriors, rogues, and clerics getting a 1:1 conversion as I outlined should see similar avoidance/mitigation values as DPS warriors/rogues providing that intellect/wisdom values on cleric gear are comparable to strength/dexterity values on warrior and rogue gear.

The only real concern I see is that int/wis values on a cleric might very well be higher than str/dex for rogues and warriors in which case a lower conversion rate would be appropriate.

[Noshei]

Hp-wise, you're second only Warrior and you always were. My RS, fully HK heared, has about 17.5k self-buffed. A similar geared Cleric has the same HP.

Now, for max mitigation, I'm sitting on 93.6% mitigation on physical, while my cleric friend was sitting @ 92%, with PTS changes. It's not much of a difference on a 4.5k hit on RS. In fact, I believe they should increase your non-physical by 4% more and you should be more in-line with RS, aside from the fact that you can self-heal, albeit minimal.

Dang Rogues, get out of our Cleric thread!

[Felia]

I actually like the hp change I just think it needs a small boost maybe to 70%?

I do consider it mostly a nerf unless you're in raids, but my real question is how much do raid buffs scale? Lets say gear accounts for 90% of our raid hp and buffs 10%... if the buffs don't scale the gear will now account for 95% with ID gear and that nonbuffed nerf becomes a full time nerf.

I think we do need a bit more hp then we currently have, so by bumping the number so it gives us a full time buff doesn't seem very difficult. The exception to this may be if you intend to provide cleric tank gear more endurance in ID then the warrior gear etc, in which case we'll be fine.

I haven't done enough research or testing on the mitigation but I'm glad to see its boosted some.

[TheWanderer]

It is actually a nerf even raid buffed. I had an archon and bard do their buffs. While my avoidance was really nice. my hitpoints were -still- 1500 or so lower on PTS than on live. So its still a significant loss when you compare it to say other classes and not having close to their mitigation yet. Only other thing that may help is you could go druid for 5% end, but you'd have to give up thick skin, which is silly to do. So I'm not sure what they are doing. Maybe 80% of your total hp would be a better way to increase our hp than 60%.

[Angelics]

im happy with all the changes except: our tank weapon's SP
it is stil neglected, which mean justicar tank will choose war tank weapon(if better of coz) -
1. increase DoA's SP bonus crystal 50% -> 60%
2. increase Reprive SP scaling by a liitle more

and make censure stack with all other debuff

[Malark]

im happy with all the changes except: our tank weapon's SP
it is stil neglected, which mean justicar tank will choose war tank weapon(if better of coz) -

I don't think this will be happening much. The increase in healing/threat will probably outweigh the increase in block/parry/dodge for most. I doubt many guilds will be letting Clerics loot Warrior tank maces if Warriors need them.

We don't know what the focus requirements for the new zone will be either so maybe you might not end up with enough Focus to hit with Bolt of Radiance, Sov, etc.

[Morvick]

We don't know what the focus requirements for the new zone will be either so maybe you might not end up with enough Focus to hit with Bolt of Radiance, Sov, etc.

I heard it was 400 for Infernal Dawn, so any new zone would probably stay at that requirement until the next tier of raids was introduced.

[Elco]

nothing new here. Clerics are the only calling with terrible to non-existent scaling across the calling.