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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

  1. #331
    Sword of Telara DoomSprout's Avatar
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    Here's a suggestion from the top of my head...

    Block Rating = (STR - Base STR) + WIS
    Parry Rating = (STR - Base STR) + WIS
    Dodge Rating = (DEX - Base DEX) + INT

    And make clerics with MoL immune to STR and DEX buffs.

    It'd make for a monster tooltip admittedly, but I believe the end result would be clerics that have runed for STR, or have source machines with STR essences, will retain just the avoidance this is providing, without adding in additional avoidance from the cleric's natural base STR/DEX values. Clerics that have runed for WIS will get proper scaling avoidance, without getting a boost from their natural STR/DEX values.

    By making sure cleric's with MoL cannot receive STR/DEX buffs, they also cannot double dip on bard/archon buffs.

    Doesn't this leave us in an identical place to warriors? A single primary stat driving our avoidance. At some point in the future, Trion could simply drop STR/DEX from the equation once all tanks have had ample opportunity to re-fill their source machines and re-rune their gear.

    I'm basing these thoughts on the need to protect people who are currently running STR based source machines. I believe this is the only possible reason Trion can be messing around with this odd weighting on stats rather than the simple and obvious 1-to-1 switch of primary stats.

    A preferred approach would be to do a database query of all clerics with STR/DEX essences, and mail them enough currency to buy replacements for them, and kill off STR/DEX based avoidance completely in one fell swoop

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomSprout View Post
    Here's a suggestion from the top of my head...

    Block Rating = (STR - Base STR) + WIS
    Parry Rating = (STR - Base STR) + WIS
    Dodge Rating = (DEX - Base DEX) + INT

    And make clerics with MoL immune to STR and DEX buffs.

    It'd make for a monster tooltip admittedly, but I believe the end result would be clerics that have runed for STR, or have source machines with STR essences, will retain just the avoidance this is providing, without adding in additional avoidance from the cleric's natural base STR/DEX values. Clerics that have runed for WIS will get proper scaling avoidance, without getting a boost from their natural STR/DEX values.

    By making sure cleric's with MoL cannot receive STR/DEX buffs, they also cannot double dip on bard/archon buffs.

    Doesn't this leave us in an identical place to warriors? A single primary stat driving our avoidance. At some point in the future, Trion could simply drop STR/DEX from the equation once all tanks have had ample opportunity to re-fill their source machines and re-rune their gear.

    I'm basing these thoughts on the need to protect people who are currently running STR based source machines. I believe this is the only possible reason Trion can be messing around with this odd weighting on stats rather than the simple and obvious 1-to-1 switch of primary stats.

    A preferred approach would be to do a database query of all clerics with STR/DEX essences, and mail them enough currency to buy replacements for them, and kill off STR/DEX based avoidance completely in one fell swoop
    All ready been suggested (albeit in a different way). The likely problem with your suggestion is that the coded terms block/parry/etc are the same for warriors and clerics. Thus they would have to code in an entirely separate set of tanking block/parry/etc terms just for clerics. It's inefficient and unnecessary. Also Trion won't go through the trouble of providing Str/Dex replacement essences anymore than they did back when we all had to regear and get new essences for SP instead of SC after the nerf to Serendipity/Overflow/etc. Apparently, we aren't supposed to wear mage gear but we are supposed to wear warrior gear. Lastly, I really wouldn't want to hear Str/Dex based clerics cry about having to get new essences when Trion has made it so easy to get them now. You can literally fill up an entire sigil in about a days worth of effort. Sure it's a PITA but we have 2 1/2 months before ID hits so it's not like you can't squeeze 1 day of effort when you have over 60 days in front of you.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trizzje View Post
    Situation A: 1 boss hits you every second for 10k damage
    Situation B: 10 adds hit you every second for 1k damage

    Currently on live our incoming damage would be identical (mathematically)

    With that "Convictions turning into shields" idea we would take tons more damage in Situation B then we would in Situation A. I was just trying to point that out.

    It has nothing to do with how much damage you currently "feel" to be taking while tanking mob packs.
    I'm not even sure why you managed to bring this up? Did you miss the point here?
    Because if 10 adds hit you every sec and your not avoiding some of these hits then something is wrong with your character.. I've never had a situation like that.. but I've had boss's hit me ever 2nd or 4th attack with it being unmitigated..

    In situation A it's never going to happen without me getting like 4 blocks two parries and a dodge.. so maybe 3 mobs hit me for 1k (maybe) but doubt it.. either way I'm not taking 1k form 10 mobs at any one time..

    But as I said also.. maybe this is something that happens to others more then me and this SHield could just be made a Constant buff tied to our 31 point talent or something that mitigates1% for every20 SP or something like that, and work only on unmitigated dmg.. if we are worried that tying it to convictions wouldn't work.. either way it can be done without making spell power a trash stat for us as the current changes almost certinaly do.. and this would keep our current gear working, and would kill the debate over Str VS Wis.. etc..

  4. #334
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    If they are going to keep the current rotatio's (1 wis = 0.9 Block & 0.75 Dodge) they need to come up with "something" extra.

    I'm still prefering an extra "spellpower = Hitpoints" conversion
    When tweaked right it could solve most of our issues:
    - The amount of free spellpower from raidbuffs/powerstone, combined with the double dipping from raidbuffs could solve our huge gap in survivability compared to Warriors.
    - The amount of extra spellpower that our wis/int would generate could make wis/int finallly our primary stat in terms of pure survivability.
    - Our current weapons/trinkets (with raw spellpower) would still hold their value somewhat.

  5. #335
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    Yeah I don't get the rationale of going to stats instead of spell power for tanking. I guess they decided power stones were OP for tanking?

    Also making Thorvin's Law useless for anything except Mien of Leadership is a mistake. Right now you have some very interesting hybrid possibilities where you can use TL for some extra survivability when running Mien of Honor.
    Joehunk
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  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trizzje View Post
    If they are going to keep the current rotatio's (1 wis = 0.9 Block & 0.75 Dodge) they need to come up with "something" extra.
    The thought that they would knowingly introduce a flawed and imbalanced ratio only to give something extra is ridiculous.

    It isn't extra when you're spending more effort and points to get the same effect.

    Introducing new convoluted mechanics that in the end only match the current base ratios of the other classes means they are wasting development and soul points to make us inferior instead of implementing a balanced system from the start.

    We need to look at what generates comparable mitigation and scaling.

    Now in the blind assumption that Trion knows what they are doing and these were balanced ratios, maybe giving us slightly inferior Block, Dodge, and parry could be understandable if after accounting for some yet-unknown SP-based buff they were comparable...however, that is now what the current system is being presented as.

    The system they presented means we spend 6 full soul points to be inferior scaling tanks. Unambiguously inferior scaling tanks. Sure we have some static buffs to close the current discrepancies in mitigation, but we scale worse. This is right before ID they are shafting us already. This is so blatantly a terrible, limited idea that I am genuinely confused what is wrong with Trion's development team's analytical abilities and forethought.

    It's true that Trion presents data to show us and hear our opinion, maybe not implement it, but when they present fundamentally flawed concepts, not concepts that we differ opinions on, but are inherently flawed and anti-balance, anti-scaling...I just don't understand.

  7. #337
    Plane Touched Vencenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randhi View Post
    Last time I checked, valor and damage reduction are multiplicative, not additive. At least I know that's the case for spells. Not sure why they'd make valor additive with physical damage reduction but multiplicative with nonphysical. But hey, test for yourself.
    720 if multiplicative,Will need further testing. Not sure the order of calculations for "physical reduce" in pvp vs valor and all reduct.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    The system they presented means we spend 6 full soul points to be inferior scaling tanks. Unambiguously inferior scaling tanks. Sure we have some static buffs to close the current discrepancies in mitigation, but we scale worse. This is right before ID they are shafting us already. This is so blatantly a terrible, limited idea that I am genuinely confused what is wrong with Trion's development team's analytical abilities and forethought.
    .
    Can you help me out and explain how Clerics are inferior scaling tanks ? I can see in terms of hitpoints that you may be right but what else ?

    You mean just because of the wis/int ratios ? Trion can always adjust the stats on the gear. E.g a Cleric helm might have more intelligence than a Warrior's helm has dexterity. Who knows.
    Last edited by Malark; 02-13-2012 at 01:22 PM.

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malark View Post
    Can you help me out and explain how Clerics are inferior scaling tanks ? I can see in terms of hitpoints that you may be right but what else ?

    You mean just because of the wis/int ratios ? Trion can always adjust the stats on the gear. E.g a Cleric helm might have more intelligence than a Warrior's helm has dexterity. Who knows.
    Nearly every set for every class has the same amount of stats.
    So far every jump between "Tiers" has been to linear for Trion to start messing with it now.

    I'm still hoping for the "extra spellpower conversion"

  10. #340
    Plane Touched Maiska's Avatar
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    Ok I see 3 things that need addressed after your chnages Zin.

    1) Our scaling is so poor now that I will still be taking the same %damage taken in full ID gear as I do now. Either ID bosses need to hit the same as HK bosses or we are just gonna be terrible tanks.

    2) Just Defense needs to be off GCD, if we use it to try and save ourselves from something happening with our healer or a string of unmitigated hits (ie. we are at low hp trying to save our butts from death) Its a race between our gcd finishing and the bosses next attack, most of the time we die.

    3) Reprieve's sp scaling is very poor. You upped the heal by about 800-1000 at 1100sp. If it heals for less than a boss autoattack, it will never save us when we are at low hp. Both rogues and warriors have CDs that will save them from death no matter if they recieve heals. Ours are built to rely on the healers saving us.
    Orangejello - Cleric Tank
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  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vencenzo View Post
    720 if multiplicative,Will need further testing. Not sure the order of calculations for "physical reduce" in pvp vs valor and all reduct.
    Just an educated guess (extrapolating how nonphysical reduction works):

    Total physical damage reduction = 1 - ( (1 - valor reduction) x (1 - armor reduction) x (1 - talent reduction) ) , convert back to %.

    So, if you have 50% valor reduction, 31% talent reduction, and 40% armor reduction, it would look like:

    1 - (.5)x(.69)x(.6) = 79.3% So that 4000 damage hit on a dummy would hit the tanky cleric for 828.

    Comparatively, the same cleric without 31% in talents would have:

    1-(.5)x(.6) = 70%. They would take 1200 from the 4000 point dummy attack. The 31% reduction is based on the untalented damage taken of 1200, not the base 4000. It's much less impressive than it sounds at first, but the non-tank spec is taking nearly 50% more physical damage than the tank spec in that theoretical set of gear.

    Of course, you'll still take nearly the same damage from nonphysical attacks as the non-tank does (well, 13% less with those talents), and have far less avoidance given the changes mention in the initial post. Your defensive talents will be far easier to counter by most people, they just need the elemental spec they use now, and a lot less hit.

  12.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #342
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    Here are the latest changes:
    • Shield of Faith: Now reduces damage taken by 3-15%.
    • Stalwart Citadel: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Block.
    • Devout Deflection: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Parry and 33-100% of your Intelligence to Dodge.
    • Mien of Leadership: Replaced the Endurance bonus with a 60% Max Health bonus.

  13. #343
    Plane Walker Treig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Here are the latest changes:
    • Shield of Faith: Now reduces damage taken by 3-15%.
    • Stalwart Citadel: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Block.
    • Devout Deflection: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Parry and 33-100% of your Intelligence to Dodge.
    • Mien of Leadership: Replaced the Endurance bonus with a 60% Max Health bonus.
    Thanks for the update Zinbik...a couple follow-up questions if / when you get time:

    Did these remain as potential changes, or were these also rolled back?

    •Sovereignty: Now deals Life damage and stuns the enemy for 2 seconds.
    •Supremacy: Now reduces Physical damage taken by 9-18%.
    •Thorvin's Law: Now causes Mien of Leadership to reduce non-Physical damage taken by 2-4% plus an additional 1.2% per point spent in Justicar above 26. No longer has an additional Spell damage reduction.

    And could you clarify:
    [*]Mien of Leadership: Replaced the Endurance bonus with a 60% Max Health bonus.

    What was the former Endurance bonus, and is this a straight +60% Max Health Bonus? How will this scale in ID and beyond?

    Thanks again.

  14. #344
    Prophet of Telara kliknik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Here are the latest changes:
    • Shield of Faith: Now reduces damage taken by 3-15%.
    • Stalwart Citadel: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Block.
    • Devout Deflection: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Parry and 33-100% of your Intelligence to Dodge.
    • Mien of Leadership: Replaced the Endurance bonus with a 60% Max Health bonus.
    This is looking a lot better! Not sure How the MoL changes are gonna look though. I will have to patch up test tonight and take a look at it.
    "Overall we want the various callings to be competitive with each other in their comparative roles. There isn’t a mandate that Rogues do more damage than Warriors or that Mages be the best ranged damage in the game. Ideally we would like to see players with equivalent skill, gear, planar attunement, buffs etc be equally effective at damage, tanking or healing." - Kervik

  15.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treig View Post
    Thanks for the update Zinbik...a couple follow-up questions if / when you get time:

    Did these remain as potential changes, or were these also rolled back?

    •Sovereignty: Now deals Life damage and stuns the enemy for 2 seconds.
    •Supremacy: Now reduces Physical damage taken by 9-18%.
    •Thorvin's Law: Now causes Mien of Leadership to reduce non-Physical damage taken by 2-4% plus an additional 1.2% per point spent in Justicar above 26. No longer has an additional Spell damage reduction.

    And could you clarify:
    [*]Mien of Leadership: Replaced the Endurance bonus with a 60% Max Health bonus.

    What was the former Endurance bonus, and is this a straight +60% Max Health Bonus? How will this scale in ID and beyond?

    Thanks again.
    These are in combination with the previous changes. The Endurance bonus from MoL on LIVE is 90% Endurance.

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