Conversation is bad mmmkay ...Originally Posted by Daglar
We all know your busy but would it really hurt to throw out some theory crafting of your own ? Seems like it would help. How much work went into this change and for the most part its not really liked ...
stop looking at this from a PvP perspective, things can be adjusted for PvP only once we get fixed for PvE first.
first, in PvE our heals mean absolutely nothing in terms of our suvivability, 100 HP healed when we're getting hit for 6k? LOL
secondly, we HAVE to scale off of spellpower or we won't scale at all, full raid buffs only give about ~100 more wisdom than unbuffed stats. thats a joke compared to how we used to scale with spellpower. oh BY THE WAY, did you forget that warriors and rogues defense increases with strength and dex (offensive stats)?
if this goes live we will be completely gimped in a month or so when ID comes out. these changes help us in the short term BUT DO NOT SCALE WHATSOEVER
Last edited by Redcruxs; 02-09-2012 at 10:57 AM.
Our "amazing" self heals cannot heal us to full health after dropping below 0 hp after a couple big hits in a row. Just saying
Couple things on my mind:
1 - I would not mind replacing our b-rez for something more useful to tanking considering - 1) All healing souls have a b-rez. 2) Only time I use it is on people who love fire/poison clouds/etc. to help "carry them" through a fight. Something that consumes all our convictions for a big heal or bubble or something.
2 - Remove the "Heal cleric's Rightous Mandate target" from Reprieve and replace it with "Heals cleric to full health" so we have a "Oh Sheet" button. Or keep the set heal number, but with MoL active, it fully heals the cleric. While other Meins heal with the set number.
3 - Make "Doctrine of Bliss" more desirable to use. (This has been mentioned many times not only in this thread, but for a long time on the forums) Make it a stackable heal-shield/Bigger heals/Etc., there have been many great ideas for what it could become.
4 - Beef up "Censure" to 7% or make it a stackable dot that ticks for life damage. More great ideas on this thread & more else where. I would like to use this in the end game instead of just in solo, instead of not used at all otherwise.
5 - And of course as mentioned through out, the loss of spell power affecting our midigation. Others have gone into detail about this so I wont mention it again.
Thank you Zinbik/Delgar for keeping us "some-what" in your loop of conversations.
We can look at both pvp and pve at the same time and balance accordingly. I absolutely hate the fact that we even have to worry about such BS, but its the fact of life. I'd rather get this **** right the first time, then have Zibnik waste time balancing stupid **** via nerfs/buff over the next couple of months; so he can move on to other cleric issues that need addressing.
Honestly if we get Wisdom/Int to a 1:1 mitigation ratio and some kind of spell power scaling to mitigation or hp, deal with DoB and censure, with the rest of the purposed changes I think Justicar will be in a good spot moving forward.
I'm probably one of the "oldest" Justicar tanks even though I didn't intend to be just because Shadefallen where I started never had enough tanks ... I've MTed through the 1st floor of HK though not as far as some of you guys yet sadly.
These changes look really good to me as changes in the Justicar tree.
One additional change is needed though to allow more support from the non-Justicar trees, help with scaling into future updates, and give our tanking a unique and appropriate flavor:
Change Mien of Leadership to only affect healing on OTHERS not self-heals. This opens great potential synergy with trees like Purifier and Warden for both threat and survival with a uniquely cleric tanking bent.
Last edited by Sunfire; 02-09-2012 at 12:19 PM.
You would think that, but the average forum poster just thinks they sit there and stair at the forums all day, and spend about an hour actually working. Most people don't have the perspective you do.
IMO, having any dev lay out the idea's they might/are going to use would save some time on their own part.
I'm pretty sure if they had just made a thread and said "these are the changes we are considering", they would get the same feedback without having to do all the work to get it onto the pts (besides the math for balancing).
A little reading comprehension goes a long way.
#262 We provide the information on how we are changing it so you guys can give feedback in whatever form you see fit. We are not asking anyone to theorycraft it for us. We are not even asking for alternate implementations - we are simply providing the information on the change we are currently leaning towards.
We do absolutely want to hear peoples thoughts on how this affects their play experience. Rift is a complex beast and any change we make is likely going to upset someone while making someone else happy.
We do feel that we need to address the mitigation issues with the Justicar. The current implementation of the class is heavily based on avoidance which simply put, is not a good proposition for balancing anything.
~Daglar
@dag @zin
Definitely appreciate the work going into this. Definitely appreciate listening to the feedback. But also definitely think this is a bandaid fix and not a long term scaling fix. I agree with the majority here on the different suggestions to scale from SP and gear so that going forward we dont have to revisit the same issues again. Also need to plead that you seriously consider fixing that justicars gain more beneficial stats from STR than WIS. This really is a huge 'miss' and should never have been like this.
I look forward to continued testing of the justicar changes and look forward to seeing changes implemented that will be a long term fix to the class. I do not look forward to the same issues again in the future months when a new raid zone is released.
Thanks for the response. I completely understand where you are coming from. I think the issue with justicar is that any and all justicar tanks have the same basic idea of how to fix the soul, or get to a good starting point to fix it, but you guys don't seem to listen.
Most of these proposed fixes that the community has been making for the past few months has been consisent; Have wisdom feed block and parry like strength does, drop strength for working for Justicars, and do the same with int and dex with dodge. The only issue I see the team having with this is that it'll make our SP go through the roof, but really, that's not a major issue nor one to hold back this change.
Doing the stat feeding change will free up so much more with the soul and then you can focus on getting the flavors down; such as reprieve, censure, mitigation % changes.
I agree with this completely. While It is nice to be the avoidance tank from time to time, it is a struggle to keep balanced around the high Block+armor+mitigation tanks.
While i do think the reduction to avoidance and increase in mitigation is a good change for high end Justicars, it is too homogeneous to warrior tanks IMO. Sometime down the road i would like to see some sort of change where salvation, or something heal/absorbtion based, contributes to our overall survivability.
Cleric Tank
Proposed to fix an HK cleric problem that affects 1% of tanks by ruining 99% of cleric play.
Instead make 0 point melee cleric allows Wis=parry Int=dodge, replace Devout Deflection tree location with new proposed Sovereignty 9/18% physical reduction. This doesn't destroy all solo cleric builds.
Last edited by Jimhalpert; 02-09-2012 at 02:58 PM.
I've noticed we gained no additional eHP with these changes. Avoidance got replaced by pure mitigation in such a way we ended up with the same numbers.
Can I conclude from this that the current gap between Warrior tanks & Cleric tanks is supposed to be this big?
Since faith in action converts sp to ap and sc to pc, so if we had some nifty root ability that converts wis/int to str/dex wouldn't we then double dip into ap/pc?
Really I think if we had a simple root ability similar to faith in action that gives us B/P/D from wis/int using the same formula as the str/dex B/P/D modifier we would be right on track. Then to address the health issue and SP scaling have SP feed directly into our health pool. Then we could remove Devout Deflection and Stalwart Citadel from the branch abilities and give us some more tanking bling.
There is absolutely no reason to bury our B/P/D abilities in a branch ability when rogues and warriors benefit from them right form the get go. In fact its kind of silly that I can pick up an item with str and dex and immediately benefit from B/P/D but as a cleric tank I have to invest points into branch abilities to benefit from B/P/D from the items meant for my calling.
Imo the reason warriors are the tanks that they are is the amount of bling that comes from there 51 point tanking trees. If you compare the amount of tank-centric abilities offered just from one of the warriors 51 point tanking trees to the 51 point cleric tanking tree you will see way more branch abilities that contribute directly to there eHP in one form or another. While our branch abilities are convoluted with abilities like SC and DD that come naturally to wars and rogues thus wasting 6 points right there (not to mention Humility and Supremacy.) Supremacy has been addressed that still leaves Humility, Stalwart Citadel, and Devout Deflection which is a total of 8 wasted points right there which could go towards some nifty tanking bling.
TL/DRJust those 3 things would go a long ways to fixing Cleric tanks
- Wis/Int feed into B/D/P just like Str/Dex for other callings make this a low root ability similar to Faith in action
- Spellpower needs to feed into cleric health pool
- Remove the slag from cleric branch abilities (ie Humility, SC,DD) replace with some sweat tanking bling
"Overall we want the various callings to be competitive with each other in their comparative roles. There isn’t a mandate that Rogues do more damage than Warriors or that Mages be the best ranged damage in the game. Ideally we would like to see players with equivalent skill, gear, planar attunement, buffs etc be equally effective at damage, tanking or healing." - Kervik
They don't need to change our HP scaling. They need to allow MoL to work with consumables and buffs. It currently doesn't take these items into effect. The second we get MoL working with consumables and buffs, our HP will scale correctly with the other tanks.
As for B/D/P, they don't want non-tanking clerics to have that level of mitigation for PvP reasons. Rogues and Warriors have limited resources for healing, while Cleric and Mages both have significant healing options. Giving base durability increases from passive skills massively improves Cleric mitigation in PvP and creates a huge imbalance. Currently having to go 23 points into Justicar is a significant and often worthwhile trade-off to gain the dodge/parry bonus from SP. Giving clerics access to that at zero points into Justicar would just be plain over-powered...
We don't have another tanking tree, there's no reason we can't spend the points needed into Justicar to get the proper tanking stats without over-amplifying our mitigation in other builds and roles.
If SP feed into our health pool our health would then scale with buffs and consumables. It dont matter if its attached to the already long list of ability changes in MoL or if it was a branch ability of its own. You could do a 2 point branch ability increases health by 50/100% of spellpower. Boom!! health scaling fixed
Add wis/int to B/D/P into MoL problem solved. Heals are nerfed from other trees and justi heals are already nerfed in PvP iirc.
You don't think warriors running in dps are benefiting from there innate D/P stats from there gear? How is that any different? they DPS we HPS. I really am grasping here to catch what your throwing but I am having a hard time keeping my eye on the ball.
Last edited by kliknik; 02-09-2012 at 07:06 PM.
"Overall we want the various callings to be competitive with each other in their comparative roles. There isn’t a mandate that Rogues do more damage than Warriors or that Mages be the best ranged damage in the game. Ideally we would like to see players with equivalent skill, gear, planar attunement, buffs etc be equally effective at damage, tanking or healing." - Kervik
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