Justicar Changes Currently On PTS

[Phage]

Deflect, while it serves a similar purpose, and pretty behave like block, down to calculation, still isn't the stat named >> block <<

Deflect definitely needs a boost in itemization, but I'm pretty sure it functions identically. The only import difference between Deflect and Block is the average mitigation they provide. If they scale comparably, whatever.

Have you ever seen this ability called Doctrine of Bliss.

It would be nice if DoB was somehow scaled on your Endurance or Armor or some stat that scaled appropriately for a tank. DoL actually provides more HPS if you use SHoE, greater essences, or other on-proc items. If it could self-heal for a couple thousand it would actually be pretty useful. Alternatively, a buff to DoB and DoR with MoL up could also function. DoL is solid where it is at, just the single target versions are unambigously inferior.

[metalith]

The major portion of the Justicar stat changes should be this


Faith in Action - Passive. Increases the Cleric's Attack Power by thier Spell Power, thier Physical Crit by thier Spell Crit and thier Melee Hit by thier Spell Focis. Increase the Cleric's Block and Parry by thier Wisdom. Increase the Cleric's Dodge by thier Intelligence.

Stalward Citadel - Increases your Wisdom to Block Rating converstion provided by Faith in Action by 10/20/30%

Devout Deflection - Increases your Dodge by 20/40/60% of your Spell Power. Increase your Parry by 10/20/30% of your Spell Power

This would make:

1 Wisdom = 1.3 Block and 1 Parry
1 Intelligence = 1 Dodge
1 Spellpower = .6 Dodge and .3 Parry

It would make Wisdom our best stat and leave Spellpower still a good mitigation stat and leave the Cleric Tanking maces useful.

[Myrkel]

I'm sure this has probably been beat on like a dead horse, I haven't had the time to go through the whole post.

I think this is a step in the right direction, I say bravo to zibnik for finally listening to the community and addressing these issues. They all look like really solid changes.

My critique however is Wisdom should be a 1:1 ratio to block and parry like Str is for warriors(and us currently) and Int 1:1 to dodge. Under the current purposed changes Strength is still going to be our best stat, and removing the SP component from our mitigation completely is going to make us want to pick up warrior tanking weapons (assuming threat isnt an issue); as well as make things like Powerstones useless for us as tanks. Wisdom and Int should be core stats, but still strength should be a reasonable alternative for something like a sigil.

I think that adding a spell power conversion to our effective health pool might be a good way of going about addressing the communities HP concerns as well as making our choice in cleric tanking weapons (or even normal healing weapons) a preferred and practical choice.

Something like Stalwart Citadel increases Block rating by 100% of your Wisdom and Increases your Hp by 200% (or w/e number you find to be reasonably balanced) of your spell power when MoL is active.

Other then that I think the only real other justicar item that should be addressed is censure. In its current form its pretty useless, bumping it up to 7% and making it equivalent to clinging spirit as a buff would allow for more raid flexibility and generally make it a useful ability.

[Eughe]

The major portion of the Justicar stat changes should be this


Faith in Action - Passive. Increases the Cleric's Attack Power by thier Spell Power, thier Physical Crit by thier Spell Crit and thier Melee Hit by thier Spell Focis. Increase the Cleric's Block and Parry by thier Wisdom. Increase the Cleric's Dodge by thier Intelligence.

With the removal of Templar, 0 point justi will give all souls, including cab, warden and inqui, free defensive stats without any type of sacrifice.

I don't know how I feel about that. In the case of warden and inqui, one would have had to give up 22-23 points in power, to gain mitigation, which i found to be a fair trade.

It can be argued that warrior and rogues get that for free even whilst playing a non defensive role, it puts a big shadow over mages (another blue bar) which does not have the ability to gain passive mitigation in any form.

If it were restricted to MoL, then it would be fine.

[Myrkel]

The major portion of the Justicar stat changes should be this


Faith in Action - Passive. Increases the Cleric's Attack Power by thier Spell Power, thier Physical Crit by thier Spell Crit and thier Melee Hit by thier Spell Focis. Increase the Cleric's Block and Parry by thier Wisdom. Increase the Cleric's Dodge by thier Intelligence.

Stalward Citadel - Increases your Wisdom to Block Rating converstion provided by Faith in Action by 10/20/30%

Devout Deflection - Increases your Dodge by 20/40/60% of your Spell Power. Increase your Parry by 10/20/30% of your Spell Power

This would make:

1 Wisdom = 1.3 Block and 1 Parry
1 Intelligence = 1 Dodge
1 Spellpower = .6 Dodge and .3 Parry

It would make Wisdom our best stat and leave Spellpower still a good mitigation stat and leave the Cleric Tanking maces useful.

I'm not sure double dipping from our stats is a good idea nor do i think its needed. Having a 1:1 ratio, in most current tank gear is going to put us at or very near the avoidance caps raid buffed; as well as probably fairly well over our soft/hard caps for block.

As i said above making a SP mod for HP would probably be the best route since it scales and can be tuned so that its not overly overpowered. I would also like to amend my previous post and move it higher in the tree since I'm sure some rouge will QQ about pvp balance and icar builds. (Kaelon Vindicit I'm looking at you two...)

[metalith]

How is that any different then Rogues and Ranged DPS they have the same stat bonuses provided by Dex/Str there is no difference. Any additional mitigation can be provided otherwise.

[metalith]

Mages make up for thier lack of mitigation by the number of sheer defensive CDs they have to counter melee damage, teleports, stuns, cc etc.

[Galibier]

I'm not sure double dipping from our stats is a good idea nor do i think its needed. Having a 1:1 ratio, in most current tank gear is going to put us at or very near the avoidance caps raid buffed; as well as probably fairly well over our soft/hard caps for block.

As i said above making a SP mod for HP would probably be the best route since it scales and can be tuned so that its not overly overpowered. I would also like to amend my previous post and move it higher in the tree since I'm sure some rouge will QQ about pvp balance and icar builds. (Kaelon Vindicit I'm looking at you two...)

If they put wisdom in place of strength and Int in place of dex we would be in liitle to no difference in position with current cleric tank gear than warriors are with there tank gear.

[Kinare Rei Zainin]

I'm sure others have said this somewhere, but I stopped reading after page 5... but our biggest problem atm is that the stats we want most are not readily available for clerics, but through other means. The only way we're going to drop those stats is if wis/int is made just as beneficial if not more so. PTS changes mean a 60% loss in our avoidance stats if we stick with wis/int only. We need 100% from wis/int, or we will not be stacking those. Maybe reduce other stats (like dodge and parry by 25% each) and give us say 150% block from wis? Just throwing out numbers so you get the idea, not going to do the math so I'm not sure if that's a good goal line or way past it. It's clear we're not supposed to be overall avoidance tanks, that's a rogues thing, so losing some other stats in order to get more survivability from block would be ok.

It's also pretty clear that scaling is going to be scary when new content and new gear comes along. I didn't start really watching my stats until I got into HK gear, but it doesn't seem like anything but my endurance/spell power is moving anywhere. Worse yet, on live sp at least gives me something, but with the PTS changes I don't want it on my gear. At all. I will be spending raid points on warrior maces if sp stays useless. Spell power still needs to be useful since its so deeply integrated into our stats and gear. Let sp keep mitigation of some form. Maybe let sp stay our dodge/parry, give int a dodge bonus since parry cap is sad, and wis gives us block? Maybe throw some HP scaling in with that somewhere. Doing those things just right fixes our str/dex > wis/int issues. It's either sp stays useful or you'll have to go through, take it off our gear, and give us huge boosts to block/dodge/hopefully not parry to not make this a nerf to those of us who decided to stick with cleric tank maces.


@ the current DoB scaling talk: DoB scaling would be nice, but I do not want it to be a game maker or breaker unless it takes a huge turn towards the "tank + healer at the same time" direction. I already spend my convictions too easily as it is, I don't want to feel like I have to put them into a 4th ability now just to survive, and I feel making that stronger would give Trion a reason to partially ignore our current issues. "Dying? Just use DoB and help your healer out. You can't expect them to do ALL the work, can you?" I'd kind of like the healer to be able to keep me up without having to have me spam my self heal. .-. Reprieve is a good emergency button, but even that has to be used too often it seems... If we were meant to be the tank that helps heal the party in high damage situations then ALL of our heals need a boost and we'd need a bigger boost to heals aggro since pretty much all we will be doing is building convictions and spamming heals at that point... Though, that might make us more useful > warriors/rouges for high party damage fights. Could potentially take away an AoE healer since your tank can do that and tank. High tank damage fights would belong to warriors/rogues, but we'd get the pick on party damage fights, while hopefully still being able to not suck when there's decent tank damage and a bit of party damage... That's not a half bad idea. If it doesn't go that way though, upping our self heals makes me nervous. xD While beneficial to us right now, in the long run might be seen as an excuse to not give us more tanking ability. All for it if it doesn't screw us over though.

[Myrkel]

@ the current DoB scaling talk: DoB scaling would be nice, but I do not want it to be a game maker or breaker unless it takes a huge turn towards the "tank + healer at the same time" direction. I already spend my convictions too easily as it is, I don't want to feel like I have to put them into a 4th ability now just to survive, and I feel making that stronger would give Trion a reason to partially ignore our current issues. "Dying? Just use DoB and help your healer out. You can't expect them to do ALL the work, can you?" I'd kind of like the healer to be able to keep me up without having to have me spam my self heal. .-. Reprieve is a good emergency button, but even that has to be used too often it seems... If we were meant to be the tank that helps heal the party in high damage situations then ALL of our heals need a boost and we'd need a bigger boost to heals aggro since pretty much all we will be doing is building convictions and spamming heals at that point... Though, that might make us more useful > warriors/rouges for high party damage fights. Could potentially take away an AoE healer since your tank can do that and tank. High tank damage fights would belong to warriors/rogues, but we'd get the pick on party damage fights, while hopefully still being able to not suck when there's decent tank damage and a bit of party damage... That's not a half bad idea. If it doesn't go that way though, upping our self heals makes me nervous. xD While beneficial to us right now, in the long run might be seen as an excuse to not give us more tanking ability. All for it if it doesn't screw us over though.

I do think that DoB needs to be a more useful ability, but my concern is (as much as i loathe to talk about pvp balance) is that it has the potential to be really OP in pvp if just it's healing is buffed. I think increasing its Sp coefficient and/or increasing the base heal should be done, and possibly adding some sort of short cool-down, say 10-15 seconds, or not making it scale with MoH.

[Morvick]

What about mimicking the Riftstalker's scaling Armor buff in the Tree Branches, but reflecting it towards MoL's Endurance?

"Mien of Leadership increases your Endurance by X% for every soul spent in Justicar while active, and converts X% of your Wisdom into Endurance, etc..."

Not sure about the actual mitigation numbers, but working with a larger health pool is a good start. Plus giving MoL some actual scaling instead of % upgrades (500% threat... yeah, bit out of hand with the forced buff, hm?) is a better long-term fix than re-evaluating it at every patch.

Dunno, maybe instead of buffing Endurance it buffs Resistances and Armor? *shrug* Whatever it is, it needs to work off Spell Power and Wisdom, though. No more relying on a non-traditional stat like Strength.

[Malark]

Would some reitemization be a huge deal for Trion ? They just did a big round of it.


With Cleric gear, only the Mace has spellpower as a direct stat.



Perhaps every tanking Mace could perhaps say... have it's spellpower halved and have extra parry and dodge added ?

[Galibier]

What about mimicking the Riftstalker's scaling Armor buff in the Tree Branches, but reflecting it towards MoL's Endurance?

"Mien of Leadership increases your Endurance by X% for every soul spent in Justicar while active, and converts X% of your Wisdom into Endurance, etc..."

Not sure about the actual mitigation numbers, but working with a larger health pool is a good start. Plus giving MoL some actual scaling instead of % upgrades (500% threat... yeah, bit out of hand with the forced buff, hm?) is a better long-term fix than re-evaluating it at every patch.

Dunno, maybe instead of buffing Endurance it buffs Resistances and Armor? *shrug* Whatever it is, it needs to work off Spell Power and Wisdom, though. No more relying on a non-traditional stat like Strength.

Well I think the whole strength thing is a perfect example of "unintended consequence." I can tell you this though. My guild uses dkp and the warriors are none too happy that with this change away from SP and Wisdome not having a 1:1 ratio to parry and block they are not happy that I will bid bidding against thm potentially for tank gear.

[Jimhalpert]

I like the idea of baking dodge and parry into the 0 point for melee. A druid and a shaman are melee and should be able to dodge and parry by default.

[Morvick]

Well I think the whole strength thing is a perfect example of "unintended consequence." I can tell you this though. My guild uses dkp and the warriors are none too happy that with this change away from SP and Wisdome not having a 1:1 ratio to parry and block they are not happy that I will bid bidding against thm potentially for tank gear.

For sure. I'm just saying that because of this unintended consequence, the fix needs to be very overt and very intentional.

Along the lines of "Anything that Strength could once do for you, now only Wisdom will do that." Make Wisdom increase Block/Parry, make Intelligence increase Dodge, but do so in a manner that actually brings them up to useful values, instead of being (ratio-wise) behind Strength. Even if you tied it to MoL, that would be fine.

The straight-up 18% physical mitigation, and increased Spell Damage mitigation (what does that come out to, 34%?) are nice touches. I just hope to see the Class builds look like they're supposed to: heavy on Wisdom and Spell Power, not Strength and Dex.