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Thread: Suggested Cleric changes for 1.6

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
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    Default Suggested Cleric changes for 1.6

    Here's a list of suggested changes. Some are buffs to address weaknesses in some trees and in cleric gameplay. Some are nerfs to the some of cleric's best abilities. Try to view the changes as a whole.


    1. Add a cleanse to 0 Templar. As of 1.5, taking 10 warden/ 12 purifier / or 16 Sentinel is required for any cleric spec to be viable in PvP. This cuts down on the type of combinations that can be put together, especially offensive specs.

    2. Remove Disciple of Flame from the Purifier tree and then rescale the shields. This is one of those skills that goes against what is good about Rift class design as it pretty much forces a player to go 51 Purifier to get viable shields. Especially with 1.5, Purifier SHOULD be enjoying a renaissance... it hasn't happened. Ocean's Blessing is a similar offender (for warden)but because the bonus is smaller it is easier to partially spec into Warden. Alternatively, change Disciple of Flame into the exact same scaling as Ocean's Blessing and adjust base values accordingly. From a design standpoint, I'm against these type of abilities full stop. The reward for going 51 into a tree should solely be the ability you get at 51. In any case, Purifier is arguably a PvE only soul right now. Poorly scaling shields and eradicate are the main reasons why it is so rarely seen in PvP.

    3. Move Battle Charge lower on the Shaman tree. If #1 is implemented, this is less necessary. As it is, this is the only Cleric closer so its a necessity for an offensive melee build. Requiring 26 shaman for it really limits melee DPS builds that would otherwise go heavier into druid or justicar.

    4. Swap Doctrine of Authority and Absolution in Justicar tree. 51 Justicar is a PvE only spec. Wheras DoA is actually a potentially interesting PvP skill. Along the same lines the Battle Rez at 31 has much better PvE applications than PvP, where it has the potential to bug a WF for the player receiving the rez. Move it to 51 and it doesn't affect the PvE cleric tanks.

    5. Consider adding a finisher to the Justicar tree that does melee damage that scales with the number of convictions it expends. Perhaps have this skill triple the value of reparation for this skill alone. This would give Justicar a lot more flexibility rather than just a Doctrine of Loyalty delivering vehicle. Would also help generate additional threat in PvE.

    6. Consider reducing the Mein of Leadership penalty to non-justicar healing and damage to 25% to allow more flexibility with other specs. MoL is pretty much a PvE tank ability only right now.

    7. Reduce healing from Doctrine of Loyalty and Healing communion by 25% in PvP. I say this with the assumption that Vampiric Munitions and Fell Blades are going to be changed/toned down slightly. Please do not reduce all cleric healing across the board. Single target heals are already underperforming compared to these beefy, easy to cast AOE heals. The group heals with long cooldowns are so rarely used but would become better by comparison with this change.

    8. Give Tyranny a 1.5 second cast time. But scale damage down offset any increase from changing from an instant. Give Sign of Asias a 1.5 second cast time. This will give defenders a few more options in reacting to cabalists AOE spike. Alternatively change Sign of Asias to single use (causing Decay to persist on the next spell you cast) and reduce cooldown to 30 seconds so that cabalists can cast double tyranny every 30 sec but not the crazy sustained spike they are capable of now. Part of the reason Doctrine of Loyalty is so necessary to to counter sign of Asias / tyranny spike. Cabalists are mostly a one button pony at this point. (Cabalists also suffer from 51 point syndrome). You could reduce the cooldown of Obliterate to 30 seconds if Asias was changed in this manner (next cast only change).

    9. Increase duration of Brutal impact to 8 seconds (brutal impact adds a snare to Bombard, the Druid DD). As it is, a snare with a 4 second base duration is worse than no snare at all as it will just make your target immune to better forms of CC. This snare needs to be competitive with Humility in the Justicar tree. In any case, you have to take this ability to get 51 Druid- it doesn't make sense that it should be worse than not taking it at all).

    10. Vengeance of the Frozen Earth falls into the same category. If you use this you are just immunizing your opponent to more meaningful CC. Consider changing Vengeance of the Frozen Earth to a +10% runspeed buff. Shamans could then toggle this when needed and gain some additional mobility.

    11. Change Soothing Stream to a 1.5 second cast. (This should tone it down for self healing wardens in PvP but keep it completely viable for healing others and for PvE purposes)

    12. Fix Druid ability Thorns of Asphodel so damage does not decrease with raid buffs.

    13. Fix Justicar ability Censure so it doesn't overwrite better damage debuffs.

    14. Fury of the Fae (Druid Satyr buff) is very nice but does not stack with Bard Motif of Bravery making Druid unnecessary in Raids. Druids should probably have “one thing” that earns them a slot in raids.



    Suggested fix to the heal debuff situation. Make all heal debuffs such that when a new one is applied, it is removed from the previous target (alternatively only allow the debuff to be applied to the player targeted only- the important thing is no AoE application). Allow Lingering Wounds to be cleansed. Give Lingering Wounds, Vampiric Munitions, and Fell Blades a 2 second cast time on the buff. (Change Lingering wounds to a cast-able buff). This allows purging the buff to actually have some effect. VM and FB should be reduced to 25% but can then receive the full value of the amount prevented, i.e. 1000 point heal, target receives 750 points, rogue receives 250 points (so the heal value remains the same as current). LW can remain at 50% (as long as it is cleans-able). This reserves the “deadlier” heal debuff for warriors.

  2. #2
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    I see no point to any of these changes, and the worst ones are incredible nerfs that would utterly break PvE viability entirely. Hell, they're even massive nerfs in PvP and 99% of clerics have stopped pvping altogether or just stopped healing in any case.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 10-16-2011 at 12:24 PM.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    I am not usually one to troll but have you actually played a cleric? Almost all the suggestions you submitted are not relevent to any current problems clerics are having.

    1. Increase PVE viability of Druid (fix bugs ect.)
    2. Increase base single target dps of Inq, Sham and Druid
    3. Implement mechanic to prevent DPS buffs from buffing hybrid heal spec
    4. Tone down the healing of DoL

    Every tree in every calling has atleast a few useless abilities, get over it.
    Tsukasu, Cleric of <Salty>, 4/4 GA, 3/3 IG, 3/5 PBB.

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    I agree with almost all of your points; however, I noticed that you didn't have anything regarding a change to Inquisitor. While a lot of PvP-specs do suffer from being forced into the aforementioned souls, sentinel, warden, or purifier, I do think Inquisitor could use a boost. From my own personal experience, being 20-40% behind people in single target isn't fun. Inquisitor does do OK in PvP, but it should be buffed nonetheless. My suggestion would be to increase vex damage or add another instant nuke with a 6-10 second cool down that does damage of BoJx1.5.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post

    1. Add a cleanse to 0 Templar. As of 1.5, taking 10 warden/ 12 purifier / or 16 Sentinel is required for any cleric spec to be viable in PvP. This cuts down on the type of combinations that can be put together, especially offensive specs.
    They would have to make it a 10 or 15 point ability. I would not want to lose BF for a cleanse.

    2. Remove Disciple of Flame from the Purifier tree and then rescale the shields. This is one of those skills that goes against what is good about Rift class design as it pretty much forces a player to go 51 Purifier to get viable shields. Especially with 1.5, Purifier SHOULD be enjoying a renaissance... it hasn't happened. Ocean's Blessing is a similar offender (for warden)but because the bonus is smaller it is easier to partially spec into Warden. Alternatively, change Disciple of Flame into the exact same scaling as Ocean's Blessing and adjust base values accordingly. From a design standpoint, I'm against these type of abilities full stop. The reward for going 51 into a tree should solely be the ability you get at 51. In any case, Purifier is arguably a PvE only soul right now. Poorly scaling shields and eradicate are the main reasons why it is so rarely seen in PvP.
    I agree with the premise. If shields scaled properly they wouldnt need to add another skill to make them scale properly. That is just sloppy. However, i dont see how Disciple of Flame would be the culprit. I think they base their scaling around the fact that every puri would have protection of ancestor. Why would we need that skill, if shields scaled well?

    3. Move Battle Charge lower on the Shaman tree. If #1 is implemented, this is less necessary. As it is, this is the only Cleric closer so its a necessity for an offensive melee build. Requiring 26 shaman for it really limits melee DPS builds that would otherwise go heavier into druid or justicar.
    Agreed. Many skills in a lot of the trees limit builds quite honestly, this is a good example.

    4. Swap Doctrine of Authority and Absolution in Justicar tree. 51 Justicar is a PvE only spec. Wheras DoA is actually a potentially interesting PvP skill. Along the same lines the Battle Rez at 31 has much better PvE applications than PvP, where it has the potential to bug a WF for the player receiving the rez. Move it to 51 and it doesn't affect the PvE cleric tanks.
    Mmmmm...you assume every justi goes 51 point. I agree with the premise, however, i do not agree with your solution. DoA should be lower on the justicar roots, or possibly a tree skill that scales with something. I would rather it take the place of censure, with a 5 point tree skill that increases its power.

    5. Consider adding a finisher to the Justicar tree that does melee damage that scales with the number of convictions it expends. Perhaps have this skill triple the value of reparation for this skill alone. This would give Justicar a lot more flexibility rather than just a Doctrine of Loyalty delivering vehicle. Would also help generate additional threat in PvE.
    Mmmm The conviction system is already there. Possibly adding more skills that increase damage when there are more convictions? Or increases the magical part of the skills damage when they have 4 convictions there. But the justi tree simply does not have a lot of skills for this to work, as we would either have only 1 builder, or only 1 finisher (DoA). There would need to be more skills added for it to be of use.

    6. Consider reducing the Mein of Leadership penalty to non-justicar healing and damage to 25% to allow more flexibility with other specs. MoL is pretty much a PvE tank ability only right now.
    Would break the game massively. 15HP + 65%+ Armour? with only a 25% penalty that can be overcame by simply being rank 8? Would make shamans, inquis and sentis unstoppable.

    7. Reduce healing from Doctrine of Loyalty and Healing communion by 25% in PvP. I say this with the assumption that Vampiric Munitions and Fell Blades are going to be changed/toned down slightly. Please do not reduce all cleric healing across the board. Single target heals are already underperforming compared to these beefy, easy to cast AOE heals. The group heals with long cooldowns are so rarely used but would become better by comparison with this change.
    The difference between the two is that DoL and HC are not in dps souls. Nor are they functionally the same. Both are made for group support and both have natural ways of making themselves worth it. HC mana cost, and DoL needing MoH and HC to be worth the cast, and convictions to actually be useable.

    8. Give Tyranny a 1.5 second cast time. But scale damage down offset any increase from changing from an instant. Give Sign of Asias a 1.5 second cast time. This will give defenders a few more options in reacting to cabalists AOE spike. Alternatively change Sign of Asias to single use (causing Decay to persist on the next spell you cast) and reduce cooldown to 30 seconds so that cabalists can cast double tyranny every 30 sec but not the crazy sustained spike they are capable of now. Part of the reason Doctrine of Loyalty is so necessary to to counter sign of Asias / tyranny spike. Cabalists are mostly a one button pony at this point. (Cabalists also suffer from 51 point syndrome). You could reduce the cooldown of Obliterate to 30 seconds if Asias was changed in this manner (next cast only change).
    Lol might as well throw cabbys out the window with that. Its an aoe class, why should it be bad at aoeing? DoL is not needed to coutner asias spike, any type of aoeing healing. Asias spam is prevalent now because no one is healing, and your suggestions previously would make people heal less. cabby is probably the only soul that is fine since it actually takes a full 51 to use, and loses all defensive capabilities to function optimally. The biggest complainers are: Low ranked players with low hp.

    Which is the target for this soul.

    9. Increase duration of Brutal impact to 8 seconds (brutal impact adds a snare to Bombard, the Druid DD). As it is, a snare with a 4 second base duration is worse than no snare at all as it will just make your target immune to better forms of CC. This snare needs to be competitive with Humility in the Justicar tree. In any case, you have to take this ability to get 51 Druid- it doesn't make sense that it should be worse than not taking it at all).
    Its duration is not the problem but its strength.

    10. Vengeance of the Frozen Earth falls into the same category. If you use this you are just immunizing your opponent to more meaningful CC. Consider changing Vengeance of the Frozen Earth to a +10% runspeed buff. Shamans could then toggle this when needed and gain some additional mobility.
    Mmm..11 points into shaman to run 10% faster? Thats too small for it to be worth it, yet if it increased it would make inquis OP since it wouldnt take much to put 11 points into shaman for a good run buff. Gaining 20% crit damage on the way and 3% damage reduction.

    11. Change Soothing Stream to a 1.5 second cast. (This should tone it down for self healing wardens in PvP but keep it completely viable for healing others and for PvE purposes)
    I get it, you dont like healers. But lol no. Not even a little bit no. Wont be viable for pve purposes either since you would be better off using senti heal.

    12. Fix Druid ability Thorns of Asphodel so damage does not decrease with raid buffs.
    Sure, why not.

    13. Fix Justicar ability Censure so it doesn't overwrite better damage debuffs.
    Or replace it with something useful.

    14. Fury of the Fae (Druid Satyr buff) is very nice but does not stack with Bard Motif of Bravery making Druid unnecessary in Raids. Druids should probably have “one thing” that earns them a slot in raids.
    Isnt that one thing natural dedication? None the less having 10& extra damage would be overkill, and they would have to do it for archosn too, since they are actually support classes unlike druids.


    Suggested fix to the heal debuff situation. Make all heal debuffs such that when a new one is applied, it is removed from the previous target
    Isnt that how things are now?

    (alternatively only allow the debuff to be applied to the player targeted only- the important thing is no AoE application).
    As long as there are aoe heals, there should be aoe heal debuffs quite honestly. Something is wrong with heal debuff application, but the aoe part is not the problem, its the free risk application.

    Allow Lingering Wounds to be cleansed.
    Sure.

    Give Lingering Wounds, Vampiric Munitions, and Fell Blades a 2 second cast time on the buff.
    Making it a skill on its own with a CD would probably be better.


    (Change Lingering wounds to a cast-able buff).
    Whoops, you said that already.

    This allows purging the buff to actually have some effect. VM and FB should be reduced to 25% but can then receive the full value of the amount prevented, i.e. 1000 point heal, target receives 750 points, rogue receives 250 points (so the heal value remains the same as current). LW can remain at 50% (as long as it is cleans-able). This reserves the “deadlier” heal debuff for warriors.
    Or...they can not los and have healers heal them. Healing wouldnt be a problem if there were team work, since heals are not a problem in premades. Cant fix human idiocy by making souls obsolete.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nickboy101 View Post
    I am not usually one to troll but have you actually played a cleric? Almost all the suggestions you submitted are not relevent to any current problems clerics are having.

    1. Increase PVE viability of Druid (fix bugs ect.)
    2. Increase base single target dps of Inq, Sham and Druid
    3. Implement mechanic to prevent DPS buffs from buffing hybrid heal spec
    4. Tone down the healing of DoL

    Every tree in every calling has atleast a few useless abilities, get over it.
    Doesnt seem like you play a cleric either.

    1) Druid is viable technically in pve. There are simply other non pet options that can be used. Not the druids fault.

    2) PvE only problem. He seems to be talking about pvp, and shamans problems in pvp is lack of armour penetrations and very little escapes/defense that other similar souls in the other trees have available. If anything they would need to decrease its reliance of physical damage, and promote its elemental damage via vengeance. Allowing 2 vengeance to be used at the same time or adding a a new type of proc ability would help shamans damage so that going defensive, wont totally kill its damage. Possibly making frozen wrath its 31 point ability.

    Inq is fine in pvp. Any change would cause it to be over nerfed.

    Druids suffer the same problem all pet class does in pvp. The biggest downfall of druids is that its 3 things in 1 soul, yet none of those things are explored far enough for it to be effective. By saying to just increase its damage wont solve its problem.

    Druid either needs to be a buffer, debuffer, or strickly a pet class, and then build the soul around that direction. Then it would be fine, and damage may not even be a factor because it wouldnt be its point.

    3) Already implemented. You lose dps by going hybrid. Hell you lose healing strength by hybridizing 2 different heal souls.

    4) Lol no, considering you need MoH and healers creed to make DoL worth it, then the mechanic to gain conviction is a dps loss for shamans, cabs, and druids, its strength is fine, especially in pvp.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishlol View Post
    to increase vex damage or add another instant nuke with a 6-10 second cool down that does damage of BoJx1.5.
    Vex increase would cause inqui to not even need justi for self healing since it heals 95% of its damage talented. And since at higher ranks thats a good 3-400 heal, per tick, i say leave it as is. Its fine. Its a dot. Dots are not nukes.

    Another nuke would not be the way to go either, especially if its stronger than BoJ.

    Inqs are fine. They have burst. Thats what pvp is about.

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    I should have clarified that these suggestions are primarily from a PvP perspective.

    I did try to suggest changes that would have little to no impact to PvE. Changing instant casts to 1.5 seconds casts would, for example, have little effect on PvE but would make an ability harder to pull of in PvP. (what massive nerfs?)

    If melee DPS specs need a straight damage adjustment to make them viable in raids, then I can't really speak to that.

    As it is, I do play a cleric and am trying to be as objective as I can about what will improve the overall PvP environment rather than simply advocating for my class.

    When I look at clerics (pre-1.5) I would say that the group heals are too good and that wardens are a little too hard to kill and mobile for their (lack of) difficulty of play. With 1.5, straight healing wasn't just nerfed, it was suddenly situationally counter-productive. So as clerics look for other ways to play their class, all of a sudden the weaknesses of the class as a DPS option suddenly become more obvious.

    Re: Inquisicar. This is the spec I primarily play and it honestly feels pretty balanced- I feel relatively tough, I do decent ranged single target damage, good utility, and have meaningful heals, so it does not feel lacking imo. The synergy between inquisitor and justicar is pretty amazing.(Though I do feel like I spend half my time casting cleanses).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    Here's a list of suggested changes. Some are buffs to address weaknesses in some trees and in cleric gameplay. Some are nerfs to the some of cleric's best abilities. Try to view the changes as a whole.


    1. Add a cleanse to 0 Templar. As of 1.5, taking 10 warden/ 12 purifier / or 16 Sentinel is required for any cleric spec to be viable in PvP. This cuts down on the type of combinations that can be put together, especially offensive specs.

    2. Remove Disciple of Flame from the Purifier tree and then rescale the shields. This is one of those skills that goes against what is good about Rift class design as it pretty much forces a player to go 51 Purifier to get viable shields. Especially with 1.5, Purifier SHOULD be enjoying a renaissance... it hasn't happened. Ocean's Blessing is a similar offender (for warden)but because the bonus is smaller it is easier to partially spec into Warden. Alternatively, change Disciple of Flame into the exact same scaling as Ocean's Blessing and adjust base values accordingly. From a design standpoint, I'm against these type of abilities full stop. The reward for going 51 into a tree should solely be the ability you get at 51. In any case, Purifier is arguably a PvE only soul right now. Poorly scaling shields and eradicate are the main reasons why it is so rarely seen in PvP.

    3. Move Battle Charge lower on the Shaman tree. If #1 is implemented, this is less necessary. As it is, this is the only Cleric closer so its a necessity for an offensive melee build. Requiring 26 shaman for it really limits melee DPS builds that would otherwise go heavier into druid or justicar.

    4. Swap Doctrine of Authority and Absolution in Justicar tree. 51 Justicar is a PvE only spec. Wheras DoA is actually a potentially interesting PvP skill. Along the same lines the Battle Rez at 31 has much better PvE applications than PvP, where it has the potential to bug a WF for the player receiving the rez. Move it to 51 and it doesn't affect the PvE cleric tanks.

    5. Consider adding a finisher to the Justicar tree that does melee damage that scales with the number of convictions it expends. Perhaps have this skill triple the value of reparation for this skill alone. This would give Justicar a lot more flexibility rather than just a Doctrine of Loyalty delivering vehicle. Would also help generate additional threat in PvE.

    6. Consider reducing the Mein of Leadership penalty to non-justicar healing and damage to 25% to allow more flexibility with other specs. MoL is pretty much a PvE tank ability only right now.

    7. Reduce healing from Doctrine of Loyalty and Healing communion by 25% in PvP. I say this with the assumption that Vampiric Munitions and Fell Blades are going to be changed/toned down slightly. Please do not reduce all cleric healing across the board. Single target heals are already underperforming compared to these beefy, easy to cast AOE heals. The group heals with long cooldowns are so rarely used but would become better by comparison with this change.

    8. Give Tyranny a 1.5 second cast time. But scale damage down offset any increase from changing from an instant. Give Sign of Asias a 1.5 second cast time. This will give defenders a few more options in reacting to cabalists AOE spike. Alternatively change Sign of Asias to single use (causing Decay to persist on the next spell you cast) and reduce cooldown to 30 seconds so that cabalists can cast double tyranny every 30 sec but not the crazy sustained spike they are capable of now. Part of the reason Doctrine of Loyalty is so necessary to to counter sign of Asias / tyranny spike. Cabalists are mostly a one button pony at this point. (Cabalists also suffer from 51 point syndrome). You could reduce the cooldown of Obliterate to 30 seconds if Asias was changed in this manner (next cast only change).

    9. Increase duration of Brutal impact to 8 seconds (brutal impact adds a snare to Bombard, the Druid DD). As it is, a snare with a 4 second base duration is worse than no snare at all as it will just make your target immune to better forms of CC. This snare needs to be competitive with Humility in the Justicar tree. In any case, you have to take this ability to get 51 Druid- it doesn't make sense that it should be worse than not taking it at all).

    10. Vengeance of the Frozen Earth falls into the same category. If you use this you are just immunizing your opponent to more meaningful CC. Consider changing Vengeance of the Frozen Earth to a +10% runspeed buff. Shamans could then toggle this when needed and gain some additional mobility.

    11. Change Soothing Stream to a 1.5 second cast. (This should tone it down for self healing wardens in PvP but keep it completely viable for healing others and for PvE purposes)

    12. Fix Druid ability Thorns of Asphodel so damage does not decrease with raid buffs.

    13. Fix Justicar ability Censure so it doesn't overwrite better damage debuffs.

    14. Fury of the Fae (Druid Satyr buff) is very nice but does not stack with Bard Motif of Bravery making Druid unnecessary in Raids. Druids should probably have “one thing” that earns them a slot in raids.



    Suggested fix to the heal debuff situation. Make all heal debuffs such that when a new one is applied, it is removed from the previous target (alternatively only allow the debuff to be applied to the player targeted only- the important thing is no AoE application). Allow Lingering Wounds to be cleansed. Give Lingering Wounds, Vampiric Munitions, and Fell Blades a 2 second cast time on the buff. (Change Lingering wounds to a cast-able buff). This allows purging the buff to actually have some effect. VM and FB should be reduced to 25% but can then receive the full value of the amount prevented, i.e. 1000 point heal, target receives 750 points, rogue receives 250 points (so the heal value remains the same as current). LW can remain at 50% (as long as it is cleans-able). This reserves the “deadlier” heal debuff for warriors.
    1) I disagree, 0 point is break free for every class, why should it be different for clerics?

    2) I agree that the scaling abilities are a little annoying. I dont mind talents that scale with the tree, but the scaling should stop before 51 points in the tree.

    3) Agree, the charge should be gettable for deep druid (lol) if they want to get it.

    4) Not really sure, but dont care too much either way.

    5) Agree, you sit at too many convictions as a tank.

    6) Disagree, MoL needs to stay PvE and be a mark of an idiot in PvP. Its too low in the tree that it would make already viable -icar specs even better. If it got moved deeper into the tree, then maybe, but not where it sits currently.

    7) I dont think DoL and HC can be addressed specifically, that needs to be addressed with all healing and healing debuffs at the same time. You are right about single targeting healing being inefficient in PvP, but its a broader issue then just those 2 spells.

    8) Some of your issues are true, but your suggestions would kill the entire soul. I will agree with you that something needs to change, but instead of messing with numbers I would like to see a partial rebuild of the soul (Adding some ST etc).

    9) All snares are stupid in this game currently, the DR is too heavy. If you are a shaman and use the snare vengeance you are basically saying "whatever target im on, I want it to be able to run away from me in 4 seconds". I personally would rather see a rework of the DR with snare then anything else.

    10) As I said in 9, snare DR needs to be fixed. Spells should be designed to not be overpowered with snares not some DR.

    11) I dont play warden so I dont know too much how it would mess with them, but I will say, wardens are able to cast too many instant casts to keep themselves up and others.

    12) Makes sense.

    13) Makes sense.

    14) Druids is probably the worst soul clerics have. It needs more then just raid buff uniqueness.



    And I'll add my own:

    The templar soul needs to be more flushed out with a healing side, a survivability side, and a dps side. Currently, as you go up the soul on either of the 4 ends, you are forced into mostly healing and some survivablity.

    There is no side that is even worth thinking about if you want dmg and surivability. Its just overall a terrible soul for any cleric that isnt a healer. Detaunt is a good example of this, a 5 point ability that is wasted on a dps cleric. I love when Im double teamed, and I use this on one of them, then shroud of agony procs and its wasted.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
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    Eughe, Thx for the thoughtful response. I may not agree with all your notes, but I think there was plenty of common ground there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    They would have to make it a 10 or 15 point ability. I would not want to lose BF for a cleanse.
    You're assuming they can only have a single ability at 0. Many souls give you multiple abilities for 0 points invested. I agree it should not be a tradeoff for break free. The idea is that it would allow for "pure" melee DPS 2 soul builds.

    Mmmmm...you assume every justi goes 51 point. I agree with the premise, however, i do not agree with your solution. DoA should be lower on the justicar roots, or possibly a tree skill that scales with something. I would rather it take the place of censure, with a 5 point tree skill that increases its power.
    Sounds good. I don't assume 51 Justicar. I just look at that tree and see something that at full investment is PvE only and has a skill that would actually be useful for PvP as the 51 point skill.


    Mmmm The conviction system is already there. Possibly adding more skills that increase damage when there are more convictions? Or increases the magical part of the skills damage when they have 4 convictions there. But the justi tree simply does not have a lot of skills for this to work, as we would either have only 1 builder, or only 1 finisher (DoA). There would need to be more skills added for it to be of use.
    I would just like the conviction system to be more flexible. When you build up convictions now, the only use for them is heals (or PvE tanking skills). Allowing the cleric to spend the convictions on a damage ability will allow more interesting/flexible play.

    Would break the game massively. 15HP + 65%+ Armour? with only a 25% penalty that can be overcame by simply being rank 8? Would make shamans, inquis and sentis unstoppable.
    Fair enough. I guess my point would be that currently 40% is too much of a penalty because MoL is so rarely used in PvP. You're probably right that 25% is too good for ranged attacks. Would 25% really be too much for shaman/druid melee attacks? I feel like that would be something to test to find that point where choosing the increased survivability over damage/healing would sometimes be the right choice. MoH is just better across the board right now (but part of that is because DoL is sooo good).

    The difference between the two is that DoL and HC are not in dps souls. Nor are they functionally the same. Both are made for group support and both have natural ways of making themselves worth it. HC mana cost, and DoL needing MoH and HC to be worth the cast, and convictions to actually be useable.
    I'm not clear on your point here. They are both just really, really good abilities, especially compared to single target options.

    Lol might as well throw cabbys out the window with that. Its an aoe class, why should it be bad at aoeing? DoL is not needed to coutner asias spike, any type of aoeing healing. Asias spam is prevalent now because no one is healing, and your suggestions previously would make people heal less. cabby is probably the only soul that is fine since it actually takes a full 51 to use, and loses all defensive capabilities to function optimally. The biggest complainers are: Low ranked players with low hp.
    I was suggesting an adjustment that would not decrease Cabalist damage but would spread it out some over time. I think its a pretty skill-less AOE spike. Giving it a 1.5 sec cast time just means you can't move while casting it and your opponents have an opportunity to interrupt it. The fact that it primarily farms low ranked players IS something that should really draw Trion's attention since the PvP game is already so hostile to new 50s.


    Its duration is not the problem but its strength.
    Disagree. 45% is plenty of strength. Humility is 50%. Its the duration and it's implications with the DR/Immunity system that makes it arguable worse than not having it at all

    Mmm..11 points into shaman to run 10% faster? Thats too small for it to be worth it, yet if it increased it would make inquis OP since it wouldnt take much to put 11 points into shaman for a good run buff. Gaining 20% crit damage on the way and 3% damage reduction.
    I hadn't thought about its effect on inquisitor, but if you go this route, you have no cleanse. So it would be a tradeoff. The run buff idea is a little out of left field I admit but I thought it appropriate to the flavor of the Shaman class.

    (talking about Soothing Stream) I get it, you dont like healers. But lol no. Not even a little bit no. Wont be viable for pve purposes either since you would be better off using senti heal.
    Okay, explain this one to me. A 1.5 sec cast time and an instant cast both use 1.5 seconds with the GCD, so the difference is just that one can be cast while moving and one cant. For PvE purposes, is not moving your feet that hard to do? Clearly this would be a nerf for PvP purposes, but that was the point, to slighty cut down on the mobility of the "bunny-hopping, waterjet-spamming wardens" and to give opponents a chance to interrupt soothing stream. Right now, eradicate is the only real counter to wardens. If there were more options against them, the need for these ubiquitous healing debuffs would evaporate.

    FWIW, I ran a "pure" healer Just/Sent/Warden build prior to 1.5. I think its just a poor choice now in the 1.5 environment. But my experience in 1.4 was that my AoE heal options were almost always simply "better" than my single target options, despite building my souls for single target healing

    Or replace (Censure) with something useful.
    Sure.

    Isnt that how things are now?
    One debuff will overwrite the other. What I suggested is that if a MM is spamming Fan Out that if VM is applied to Player B, it gets removed from player A. In other words the debuff can only be "maintained" on a single target. This may be hard to code, who knows. The main thing is that the easy AE heal debuff spam get eliminated.

    As long as there are aoe heals, there should be aoe heal debuffs quite honestly.
    I don't think that necessarily follows at all. I pretty much agree with Taugrim's take on Healing debuffs in general.They are a bad way to go design-wise. I agree with you that they shouldn't be passive and thoughtless. In any case, healing debuffs are so pervasive now that it has called into question the value of the healer role. An adjustment needs to be made and there are probably a number of viable ways to go about it as long as it actually happens. I think its possible that purging and cleansing heal debuffs could be an acceptable form of gameplay for clerics, its just that right now its all just too much- the debuffs are all over the place and re-applied too quickly. The cleanse war is a losing battle and worse, its decidedly NO FUN.

    Thanks for your comments!

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahbi View Post
    1) I disagree, 0 point is break free for every class, why should it be different for clerics?


    The templar soul needs to be more flushed out with a healing side, a survivability side, and a dps side. Currently, as you go up the soul on either of the 4 ends, you are forced into mostly healing and some survivablity.

    There is no side that is even worth thinking about if you want dmg and surivability. Its just overall a terrible soul for any cleric that isnt a healer. Detaunt is a good example of this, a 5 point ability that is wasted on a dps cleric. I love when Im double teamed, and I use this on one of them, then shroud of agony procs and its wasted.
    Thx for the comments as well. I agree with you about the need for the PvP souls to be reworked. Its a tall order.

    Personally I don't think the PvP soul is worth it for 0 investment- (just getting break free), so adding a cleanse at 0 doesn't offend me. I see your point that this would not be fair to other classes but you could easily see some class-specific PvP useful ability added at 0 to pair with break free. For rogues it could be a short sprint, warriors a short magic damage reduction buff, mages a blink. But making these type of changes is probably outside the scope of this thread.

    I still think the basic idea is sound- a cleanse is necessary to a cleric for PvP, so choosing even a small investment in the cleric PvP soul should provide that, even if it just requires a single point.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    Eughe, Thx for the thoughtful response. I may not agree with all your notes, but I think there was plenty of common ground there.

    You're assuming they can only have a single ability at 0. Many souls give you multiple abilities for 0 points invested. I agree it should not be a tradeoff for break free. The idea is that it would allow for "pure" melee DPS 2 soul builds.
    I am not aware of any other pvp soul giving 2 0 point abilities. If there are, sure, if not, i dont see why clerics must break that mold.

    I would just like the conviction system to be more flexible. When you build up convictions now, the only use for them is heals (or PvE tanking skills). Allowing the cleric to spend the convictions on a damage ability will allow more interesting/flexible play.
    Agreed. I think the problem here is that, with at least clerics, trion changes a good amount of mechanics and skills within the souls, but leaves mechanics from previous version of that soul in place.
    Justi was a better support soul than it is now (well, its damage was horrid, but thats not why its less of a support soul than it is now). It was viable to be a MoH justicar in beta at least (dont know about alpha) since it provided buffs, and healing. In fact, that was a build i used in beta for dungeons, where you would really focus more on healing and heal -> damage, and convictions storing would have been used strategically, especially with their aoe heal buff. But, they gutted it, and left a system in which the justi soul does not function quite the same, and for a tank, the convictions are preemptive to threat builders and the MoH melee justi, outside of senticar possibly, is non existent.

    I simply do not know how they will fix it without breaking tanking aside from making a new soul.

    Fair enough. I guess my point would be that currently 40% is too much of a penalty because MoL is so rarely used in PvP. You're probably right that 25% is too good for ranged attacks. Would 25% really be too much for shaman/druid melee attacks? I feel like that would be something to test to find that point where choosing the increased survivability over damage/healing would sometimes be the right choice. MoH is just better across the board right now (but part of that is because DoL is sooo good).
    This goes back to my previous comment as how justis have mechanics and skills left in from when they could have ran different roles. If they added support or damage skills in justi, MoL would be a viable pvp spec because justi damage is not affected, and would be a viable spec. However, MoL HP increase is simply too strong for its damage reduction to be lowered. We have more HP than warriors and just as much armour, and we dont need a shield to achieve it either.

    I dont see any upsides for anyone but clerics, with this. Which is a bad thing.


    I'm not clear on your point here. They are both just really, really good abilities, especially compared to single target options.
    Making them weaker wont solve the problems with ST. Cast times (HI, RF) or scaling (Balm of wood, heroic, HF, HFlare, HS) are whats the problem with ST. Not to mention the prevalence of AoEs. Its not a coincidence that Cabs got popular when aoe heals were nerfed. Or when aoe heals were buffed, the (first?) SC nerf seemed a lot more detrimental to mages. AoE heals are there because of aoe damage being high and/or plentiful. If aoe damage was low, and st was higher (along with general hp) ST heals would (forcibly) be a lot more important than it currently is (although it is more important than it was in 1.4/3)

    I was suggesting an adjustment that would not decrease Cabalist damage but would spread it out some over time. I think its a pretty skill-less AOE spike. Giving it a 1.5 sec cast time just means you can't move while casting it and your opponents have an opportunity to interrupt it. The fact that it primarily farms low ranked players IS something that should really draw Trion's attention since the PvP game is already so hostile to new 50s.
    Those suggestions would have made cabbies terrible quite honestly. We do not need another SC, nor do we want cabs to be more powerful than they are (1.3 and prior), which adding cast times will have to do, else cabbies would not be worth using. Your opponents have plenty of ways to stop it. One being silence, or allowing ranged characters to attack it. When i notice a cab, i start attacking, it dies. No fuss no muss. what you are doing, is dumbing down the game, whether intentional or not, which hasnt worked so far for trion.

    It farming low ranks is not the cabbies problem, but the games problem.


    I hadn't thought about its effect on inquisitor, but if you go this route, you have no cleanse. So it would be a tradeoff. The run buff idea is a little out of left field I admit but I thought it appropriate to the flavor of the Shaman class.
    Mmm, well, i have no cleanse on my inq build and rely on my CC buff for that type of stuff. And i fair well. I dont see how that would be a trade off. I do agree that the skill needs to be changed to something more useful. Possibly a reactive or decent debuff (disarm? ) or even a buff that lowers our GCD for a few seconds (would be super coolio imo)

    Okay, explain this one to me. A 1.5 sec cast time and an instant cast both use 1.5 seconds with the GCD, so the difference is just that one can be cast while moving and one cant. For PvE purposes, is not moving your feet that hard to do? Clearly this would be a nerf for PvP purposes, but that was the point, to slighty cut down on the mobility of the "bunny-hopping, waterjet-spamming wardens" and to give opponents a chance to interrupt soothing stream. Right now, eradicate is the only real counter to wardens. If there were more options against them, the need for these ubiquitous healing debuffs would evaporate.
    It takes 6 seconds for SS to be of any use. With your suggestion, it would take 9-12 seconds (have to do that math but i think that it would be 9 second to get the same strength). Might as well use any other 2-4 point heal in the other trees because this 20 point heal would not be doing anything that they can not do in the same amount of time. The point of warden is mobility. They lose the ability to deal with burst well. They are made for drawn out fights, thats their strength. And the longer that they are on the field, during combat, the more the fulfill their purpose.

    When it comes to purpose, wardens are WAI.

    FWIW, I ran a "pure" healer Just/Sent/Warden build prior to 1.5. I think its just a poor choice now in the 1.5 environment. But my experience in 1.4 was that my AoE heal options were almost always simply "better" than my single target options, despite building my souls for single target healing
    AoE damage was prominent in 1.4 as it is now. Until they make aoe not needed, then aoe heals will always be a good option en masse.


    I don't think that necessarily follows at all. I pretty much agree with Taugrim's take on Healing debuffs in general.They are a bad way to go design-wise.
    I agree on his premise, but i dont agree that they should be removed until all aoe damage is lowered, and there are less aoe heal options. Until then, heal debuffs should be in aoe form.

    My view is. AoE damage is to do mass damage on multiple targets. AoE heals are to counter that mass damage on multiple people. AoE heal debuffs is to make that mass aoe damage not completely countered by that mass aoe heal. Else you might as well take the mass aoe damage out, since it wont break through that aoe heal. Lowering aoe healing skills, would make them useless as they would nevecr be able to deal with the mass aoe damage. AoE heal debuff allows both sides to have the same functionality, but break up the stalemate where applicable. All we need is a useful aoe cleanse.

    I agree with you that they shouldn't be passive and thoughtless. In any case, healing debuffs are so pervasive now that it has called into question the value of the healer role. An adjustment needs to be made and there are probably a number of viable ways to go about it as long as it actually happens. I think its possible that purging and cleansing heal debuffs could be an acceptable form of gameplay for clerics, its just that right now its all just too much- the debuffs are all over the place and re-applied too quickly. The cleanse war is a losing battle and worse, its decidedly NO FUN.
    AoE debuff is a problem because the cleanse abilities for clerics, is not as good as the heal debuff application. If thats a good thing or now is debatable, but its evident healers do not like it, which is obvious since i have been the only healer all day.

    The only useful aoe cleanse happens to be on archon, and i think deep into it. Which..is useless to us clerics, since we have to depend on another class to our job properly, which is not a problem in itself, but since scoreboards nor do the new wf achievements, do not pat support on the *** when they do good, they will continue to be underplayed, thus, the application v. dispelling problem we have now, will never be solved unless clerics can get a way to solve it themselves (coughmakedruidasupportsoul)

  12. #12
    Telaran Ravenrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post


    Okay, explain this one to me. A 1.5 sec cast time and an instant cast both use 1.5 seconds with the GCD, so the difference is just that one can be cast while moving and one cant. For PvE purposes, is not moving your feet that hard to do? Clearly this would be a nerf for PvP purposes, but that was the point, to slighty cut down on the mobility of the "bunny-hopping, waterjet-spamming wardens" and to give opponents a chance to interrupt soothing stream. Right now, eradicate is the only real counter to wardens. If there were more options against them, the need for these ubiquitous healing debuffs would evaporate.

    FWIW, I ran a "pure" healer Just/Sent/Warden build prior to 1.5. I think its just a poor choice now in the 1.5 environment. But my experience in 1.4 was that my AoE heal options were almost always simply "better" than my single target options, despite building my souls for single target healing
    Please change the Title in your post to add (PVP only). Your suggestions are coming only from a PVP point of view. From a PVE pure healing standpoint I can only comment on how your proposed change to Soothing Stream would impact PVE adversly.

    In response to your question. Yes, for PVE purposes not moving your feet - is too hard for a Warden soul'd pure healing Cleric to do. That is - assuming you are using it to your full potential and MT and/or OT healing as well as AE raid healing. Other than Justicar's DoL and Sentinel Healing Breath (spot heal really) there are no other souls able to heal on the run. It makes more sense (not that I would) to ask for a cast time for DoL - as it's a defensive soul, not a healing soul.

    In a majority of Rift raid encounters - yes, mobility healing is needed. There are very few of the stand and heal fights and quite a bit of mobility involved in many of the encounters. Consider raid healing -and- tank healing needed during ground effects, encounter repositioning, kiting ect. The Warden and Justicar souls are the only souls that specifically cover "raid/tank damage taken" while on the move.

    Just a few examples: In GSB you've got Johlen in last 20% stages- constant movement; Prince Hylas - Movement from land mines and bunny form; Greenscale - Dodging Strangling Blight and movement as the tank kites Greenscale. In HK the very first encounter Murdantix - is entirely mobile. Soulrender Zilas - same thing entire raid is running every 60 seconds... there are many more examples where mobile healing is necessary for PVE raid encounters. Justicar's DoL and lack of Single Target healing capabilities is just not enough.

    Just/Ward/Sent may not be the best choice post 1.5 for AoE plus Single Target healing in PVE. Ward/Sent however IS.

    Example: for a Ward 34/ Sent 32 you get:

    Large 3-4k Single Target Heals: Orbs of the Stream, Healing Invocation and Soothing Stream x's 4 + Deluge. (Any of these can be turned to instant cast via Touch the Light or Healer's Haste)

    AE Instant Healing: Healing Flood, Healing Showers, Divine Call, Ripple + Soothing Stream x's 4, Healing Communion. (Healers Haste + Healing Communion = 5 Mobile instant cast AE Heals)



    • Your proposal would be taking away the Wardens largest single target heal: Soothing stream X's 4 + Deluge. Deluge already has a cast time to it; adding cast times to Soothing Stream would make the Warden soul obsolete in PVE. This is not only with respects to mobility but also its single target heal and AE healing capability.
    • Your proposal would also take away the Warden's largest mobile 5 person burst AE healing via Ripple + Soothing Stream x's 4. There would no longer be a viable use for Ripple.
    • Your proposal would also negate the Warden's ability to "dual tank" heal effectively. As a pure healer did you ever have Soothing Stream hots running on /Focus MT #1 and /Maintarget OT/MT #2 with Deluge or Healing Invocation at the ready for spike damage? Adding a cast time would make this impossible.

    Chloro's already highly compete with pure healers with regards to % raid healed and their ability to MT heal, I see no need to scale back healing further for Clerics in any way, shape or form - especially not the pure healing souls.
    Last edited by Ravenrose; 10-16-2011 at 08:08 PM.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    It takes 6 seconds for SS to be of any use. With your suggestion, it would take 9-12 seconds (have to do that math but i think that it would be 9 second to get the same strength). Might as well use any other 2-4 point heal in the other trees because this 20 point heal would not be doing anything that they can not do in the same amount of time. The point of warden is mobility. They lose the ability to deal with burst well. They are made for drawn out fights, thats their strength. And the longer that they are on the field, during combat, the more the fulfill their purpose.

    When it comes to purpose, wardens are WAI.
    Using my suggestion (1.5 sec cast time) it would take the same 6 seconds for SS to be of any use. Not 9-12 seconds. The same 6 seconds. Instant spells and 1.5 second cast time spells occupy the same 1.5 second "cast window". Chain cast 40 instants and 40 1.5 second spells and it takes exactly 1 minute for either. This difference is that you can move during the instants. You would have to remain still for the full 6 seconds with the 1.5 second casts of 4 soothing streams. Is this harder? Yes. That's the idea.

    If a 1.5 second cast time is too big a burden in a PvE environment (as Ravenrose has asserted) then it really rules out ANY heals with a cast time in that environment. That is either very hard to believe or the dev's have really painted themselves into a very small corner as to which abilities are viable in certain raid situations, (i.e. instants only) and it points to a much bigger problem.

    Maintaining SS on two targets at the same time should be the same with a 1.5 cast time as with an instant cast time, other than the movement restriction. You would still be able to ripple +SS, though you would get only 3 SSs off rather than 4, but only because of the slight delay between triggering ripple and casting your first SS. You can cast 3x SS then 1x healing spray in the same 6 second window. Basically as long as you end with an instant you get the same number of casts in the 6 second ripple window.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    Using my suggestion (1.5 sec cast time) it would take the same 6 seconds for SS to be of any use. Not 9-12 seconds. The same 6 seconds. Instant spells and 1.5 second cast time spells occupy the same 1.5 second "cast window". Chain cast 40 instants and 40 1.5 second spells and it takes exactly 1 minute for either. This difference is that you can move during the instants. You would have to remain still for the full 6 seconds with the 1.5 second casts of 4 soothing streams. Is this harder? Yes. That's the idea.
    Except that a 1.5s cast in a heal is a huge deal. If it's 1.5s, it would need to do about 4-5x the current healing it does because it kills mobility and introduces massive levels of setback and interrupt that you don't seem to comprehend. It also kills PvE where you need to reposition while maintaining 4x on multiple people, which you also don't seem to comprehend.

    Add to that that it's cleansable by an instant-cast no CD purge that MMs have (2 at a time, no less), and this is a completely moronic idea that massively nerfs clerics. I'm not surprised though, most of your post is asking for massive nerfs to clerics or unnecessary, pointless changes that would do nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    If a 1.5 second cast time is too big a burden in a PvE environment (as Ravenrose has asserted) then it really rules out ANY heals with a cast time in that environment. That is either very hard to believe or the dev's have really painted themselves into a very small corner as to which abilities are viable in certain raid situations, (i.e. instants only) and it points to a much bigger problem.
    HI costs me 1.5s on average to use and heals for 3000-7000. Our HoTs tick once per 3 seconds. Would I want to use a 1.5s cast that places a low value HoT on a target when the same time investment would nearly full heal them? The difference is the mobility and the fact that instant cast abilities are generally used reactively (this is why all of our CDs are instant cast or channeled, not casted).

    Mobility is among the most important things in PvP, it is the primary reason MM is able to dominate any cleric soul (and was able to back in 1.4 and before that even). The changes you request destroy the mobility of the soul which utterly guts it for PvP and makes it very much less useful in PvE.

    It's also among a select few abilities we have that are not on CDs that allow us to heal while moving. Its healing is not excessive at all. Anyone who's really serious about nerfing SS is a complete moron who doesn't understand healing in this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    Maintaining SS on two targets at the same time should be the same with a 1.5 cast time as with an instant cast time, other than the movement restriction. You would still be able to ripple +SS, though you would get only 3 SSs off rather than 4, but only because of the slight delay between triggering ripple and casting your first SS. You can cast 3x SS then 1x healing spray in the same 6 second window. Basically as long as you end with an instant you get the same number of casts in the 6 second ripple window.
    Not really. Setback demolishes this. Quite a number of cast-time increasing abilities break this. Interrupts, KBs, etc break this. 1.5s is a VERY long cast time in PvP, especially for such a pitiful heal.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 10-16-2011 at 11:24 PM.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
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    I think you are making an excellent case for demonstrating how incredibly powerful SS is in its current form.

    SS is the main culprit that DPSer complain about when clerics can simply load up on stacks of HoTs and then lol/bunyhop across the map. They're not complaining about "clerics", they are complaining about wardens with SS.

    SO while I'm hesitant to recommend anything that would makes clerics less playable in the world of 1.5, when and if they roll back some of this rogue and heal debuff nonsense, it would be good to address some of the issues on the cleric side that made rogues ineffective against clerics in situations where they probably should have fared better. SS seems like its a cornerstone of cleric invulnerability claims.

    And btw, eradicate pulling off 2 stacks of SS at a time is a strength of SS. It takes two eradicates to cancel 1 big HOT, as opposed to 4 abilities from other souls that eradicate would eliminate.

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